Saturday, January 17, 2009

FIXING PROBLEMS AND WALKING AWAY FROM SITUATIONS

from Murph

The Obamaites have a new web page up asking for citizens to give their ideas on how to fix the problems in the country. http://citizensbriefingbook.change.gov/ideas/viewIdea.apexp?id=0878000000053zC
This was sent to us by a friend in CA. He expressed some cynicism about it, but hopeful.

I read through quite a bit of it and quit when I started to feel queasy. Needless to say, I was very disappointed in the comments made. Freeacre is optimistic enough about Obama's presidency to probably sleep in her clothes on Monday night to be sure not to miss anything, (along with an extra box of Kleenex). So this post has a bit of internal dissension around it. If you have gone to the site and gone through the suggestions and comments, before you jump on my butt and start pounding some sense into my brain, let me explain my very negative reaction.

My first impression was that the suggestions verged on being idiotic and were the result of misinformation or very little real information and I mean that wholesale throughout the site. It was if each little piece was a discreet part of the whole and solvable all by itself. Not one suggestion I read made any denial that we could continue business as usual if only we fixed this little broken piece of the puzzle. What this site exemplifies is that “experts” are now being replaced by “decisions by consensus by everyone”. Everyone now can pony up on a forum their own pet idea on how to fix something. So, if 1000 suggestions that are dissimilar in many ways are offered for some problem, (say health care) who is going to sort through them and come up with a solution. Hmmm? Oh my God, it is the “experts”. Which assumes of course that the “experts” in any given area are not aware of the alternatives available. Not likely. The assumption around all of this is that our present predicament is the result of incompetence and lack of awareness on the part of leadership. This assumption is tenuous at best. I start with the assumption that the decision makers know damned well what they are doing. What they are poor at is projecting consequences of acting on their information. Projecting effects of an action into the future is a matter of probability, not absolute in most cases and we keep getting lots of surprises. It is true that some consequences seem to be close to 100% reliable. Jumping off the top of a 10 story building has very predictable consequences in the 100% range. But, governance does not have that high a probability for large populations. If the “experts” in a particular area can’t project consequences for a general policy, just what is the ability of most folks to do it?

I was in the hardware store yesterday and the guy behind the counter offered that if the government had distributed the $1 trillion bailout money equally between every single person in the U.S. we would end the financial crisis immediately since that would be in the neighborhood of $3 million each with which to buy goods and services. Now here is the kind of suggestion I am talking about. If the government did that, what would happen to prices of everything available? Hmmm? I would offer that there would be a near certainty that there would immediately be a 3,000,000, % increase in prices and that is called hyperinflation, and we have lots of examples of that happening over history and in modern times. If it takes a million dollars to buy a weeks worth of food, you are no better off than you were before. When I suggested this consequence to him, there was this startled response and nothing more was said. These people vote too.

Some of the suggestions at the site were futuristic/fantastic types of stuff. Of particular interest to me was the energy section. It contained suggestions that primarily centered on denial of peak oil or suggestions that would demand a complete overhaul of our huge infrastructure dealing with transportation. Hydrogen and ethanol were emphasized. Now I am going to assert that anyone that has been keeping up with the debate and science around a hydrogen energy source, principally for the approx 300 million vehicles we have in this country, knows that this is a non solution. Individual retrofitting for that many vehicles is not going to happen, not even close. If we try and sell new vehicles to a destitute population, that isn’t going to happen either and the infrastructure cost would be more money than our current GMP for years into the future. It is not going to happen. Individuals with the incentive and abilities to retrofit their gas burning engines may have limited success but on a national scale, not possible. Remember when propane and natural gas retrofitting was the vogue? Cheaper per mile to drive and very damned few vehicles were retrofitted for it. Hydrogen falls into the same trap, plus it is very expensive to produce it in mass amounts. Retrofitting an individual vehicle to produce its own hydrogen is not going to be easy, and nobody yet knows just how many additional problems will evolve from trying to do so. Ethanol has some of the same problems and a few others that are simply not going to make it possible on a large scale.

However, my main concern for the stuff written at this web site centers around the inability to see how all of the problems are interconnected, they are not discreet. Fixing health care, education, energy and a whole plethora of others are interrelated. Fixing education will not fix health care or the financial problems or the geological constraint on our energy supply or our contaminated food supply, and just how long would it take to fix any single one of the problems anyway? We’re talking year’s folks, and in the meantime everything is falling apart around us. We don’t have years, or the means, or the raw materials or the manufacturing capacity or the political will or the money to do what would have to be done.

Another objection I have in that web site is that there was no recognition that we are going to have to change the way we live. That this is going to be forced on the population is inevitable, now or in a short time in the future. There was no idea expressed that I read that would indicate that the American way of life (and western culture generally) was in question and unsustainable. Even that statement contains some assumptions. What it boils down to is what assumptions look like the highest probability to a person. Then you can come to some conclusion about an outcome from some action. My criticism of most of the actions taken, especially by government, is in the assumptions used to determine the actions. In the suggestions at that web site, I find most of the assumptions implied are flat out faulty, no relation to reality and consequently the suggestions are faulty. But what the hell, I am not an infallible prognosticator; I just have to wait and see what happens.

Now, on the positive side to that web site. As Freeacre pointed out to me (in my shortsightedness) that citizen involvement in decision making is a good thing. At least, being in an argumentative mode, and expressing ones ideas means some thinking is being done and minds can be changed by counter arguments. At least, those contributing to the dialog are not sitting on the couch watching American Idol and such all the time. And, there is the possibility that a genuine new idea will be generated, and if the Obama group are really interested in new ideas, it could possibility be that it would be considered. Again, more assumptions. So I guess I can’t completely negate the contributions to that web site. Maybe, just maybe, something good will come out of it besides a whole lot of mental masturbation.

38 comments:

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

I haven’t looked at the Obama web site. I am doing this with a sandwich in one hand and a cop of coffee in the other before I run out of the door. I must admit to a wry smile about the tenor of the post. For as long as I have been visiting here Murph has been advocating Anarchism as a way of life, meaning the involvement of all in the decision making process and execution of the decisions and now he has it he doesn’t want it any more. In fairness, what seems to be happening is that Obama is asking misinformed people to make decisions based on that misinformation. During the election, he never said what his policies or plans were and maybe he doesn’t have any but more likely it is a ruse to throw the inability to cure the patient back onto the citizenry. I don’t know at this stage whether it is better to pull the plug on the patient or leave him in a coma in the hope that he may wake up in a couple of years and feel much improved. Maybe Freeacre does have a point and modern computers can be programmed to pick out trends from a seemingly random mass of information. Maybe Murph should throw his two cents worth into the discussion as well. In the meantime, here is a short list of measures which won’t be adopted.

Abolish the FED
Tax the rich to sensible levels
Either distribute or spend the CAFR surpluses and only keep one set of books
Devalue the dollar by massive proportions
Make Tesla technology freely available
Swap the Pentagon budget with those from Health education and welfare.
Allow me to choose my own stake to be burned on.

Anonymous said...

Murph

I am with you on what you write. I don't have to go to the Obama site to know that the so called American Way of Life is non negotiable for the vast majority of Americans.

It is easy to see that the world cannot continue to have a situation where 5% of the population is allowed to consume 25% or greater of the resources and there not be some sort of consequence. The day of reckoning is coming despite the pitches and throws of a government that think they can stave off this economic beating.

The best thing that can happen and should have happened was the govt to stay the hell out of the way and let the economic house of cards fall. Flush the system, beg for mercy from the rest of the world promise to to do better globally in the future and start to rebuild from an honest base.

This admin will be no different than the last, and if by some chance it proves me wrong I will be one of the first to admit it. Can't see it though. I look at who Obama has chosen to work this mess out and they are most of the same people who were at the forefront of where the USA is at present.

There are people out there very smart people who have being telling anyone who would listen from years ago what was coming and these same people have great ideas on what to do now to move in the right direction yet none of them have been sought to provide any sort of insight. Does this sound like a govt bent on change? They think their answers will come from the idiot masses on line? This is more of give them bread and circuses, will they look at any of the proposed ideas? Don't think so..

So with the other $350 billion released to the markets, the same snake oil salesmen are plotting their next move to rape the taxpayer yet again. B of A is a classical example of an institution holding the ransom card and yes they got another bailout. Too little and too late they will burst, they and a host of other greedy bastard institutions as well. We will begin to see more and more ponzi like schemes revealed as we go through 2009, this may or may not inspire a panic, it may or may not create another so called bank holiday at some point.

One thing that is for certain is that at the rate the money presses are running the value of a greenback will at some point be worth less than a sheet of toilet paper.

OK nuff for now, good article Murph...

Ely

murph said...

Belgium,

Yes, on the surface, it would appear that I am backing off of the anarchist stance. Both anarchism and democracy depend on accurately informed people. In both cases, bad information leads to bad decisions. The old garbage in then garbage out thing. What I felt I was reading was a whole lot of conclusions based on very bad assumptions and very faulty information.

What I have admitted in the past is that anarchy will not work in very large complex societies. Cripes, in this society as much time as I spend trying to understand what is happening I have to end up saying I don't know. For instance, I still can't really determine if what is happening is really planned or the result of incompetence, or maybe some combination.

In my more cynical mode, I suspect efforts like the aforementioned web site is another delusional propaganda effort to convince people they actually have some influence on governmental decisions. For my part, considering who his chief advisor's are, I simply cannot be less cynical.

murph said...

Ely,

One thing that I would point to is the corporate structure. The very real global degradation of the planet took hold with the formation of the corporations to exploit natural resources. Not that degradation didn't take place before, but it was limited by a lack of the necessary technology. Now, we are literally killing the environment on a global scale, not just regional. What humans must decide is whether the benefits of technology outweigh the disadvantages. I figure it will be some time before most humans see that relationship and act accordingly. From my vantage point, we really need to get rid of corporate structure, the giant all inclusive ability to exploit. If corporations had been held accountable, we would not be seeing this degradation and the pace of technology would have been slowed considerably with far less of the negative effects. Technology without accountability is what we have.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

And financial recklessness without accountability. Corporate personhood has allowed some people of ability to start over after a false start and demonstrate their worth. On balance though it has done far more harm than good. CEOs of large enterprises can behave recklessly towards the environment or towards their employees and when an attempt is made to bring them to book they point in the direction of the non existent person in the room. Wit h a shrug of the shoulders they accept a slap on the wrist fine. Had the potential crime of Corporate Manslaughter not been a still born child or consequential destruction of the environment laws had teeth then many decisions by business would have been different.

Another still born child was the Referendum Party which proposed an attempt to make a form of Anarchism work on the larger scale. In this, political decisions were discussed from a number of standpoints, either on TV or in the press and people could vote for a course of action they felt was most appropriate. In this, the largest vote would decide the course of action so there was an element of democracy in there too.

Obama’s choice of colleagues and more significantly his non chosen colleagues make me think he will be a man of the people in the Clinton mode.

murph said...

Belgium,

As I understand it, anarchism is not a vote of the majority to decide action. Everyone who is affected by the action must agree. Anything less than a unanimous decision makes a democracy by majority which by its very nature, means some percentage of the population is repressed, disenfranchised. We have for all our lives been pummeled by the "will of the majority" concept. It is a "box" concept very difficult to think differently about due to that propaganda as being the only valid way to do business. So for me, the question is that when looking over history how many times has the majority opinion and action for those affected been good for everyone, especially in the long run? Contrarian view says do exactly opposite what the majority decide because they are wrong most of the time, that is, stay out of the path of the stampeding herd, you will go over a cliff.

I'm aware of the attempt by the Clintonites to portray Clinton as a man of the people. As it turned out, I think he failed miserably with those policies touted as such.

Another question is whether our present world situation is the result of popular vote? I would insist, yes it is. Were the majority wrong? Oh yes!!Of course, I am also admitting that the propaganda to achieve consensus was unremitting and extreme. Those who dissented were marginalized or eliminated. So goes what passes for democracy.

freeacre said...

OK, OK, I concur on just about everything said. But, let's take a minute to back off from the political perspective and look at it for a minute from the heart. This is my Kleenex stance.
Tomorrow is Martin Luther King Day. When I was at a tender age, this man and his followers inspired me and much of my generation to "judge not by the color of one's skin, but by the content of one's character." Now, that's a pretty simple idea. But, back in the day, when everything was segregated from schools to drinking fountains, that was HUGE. I mean, in the town I grew up in, "inter-marriage" meant a Dutch Reformed marrying a Christian Reformed! A Missouri Synod Lutheran wouldn't darken the door of a Augustana synod Lutheran church. A Protestant woman wouldn't go to a Catholic hospital. It was freakin' nuts. To have a black friend over for dinner was just absolutely taboo. I actually ran away from home for 3 days after I joined the junior chapter of the NAACP when I was in high school, and my father jumped up and down and screamed at me calling me a "nigger lover."
And yet, I believe that if he were alive today, he would have voted for Obama. So, I'm putting aside the other crap for a moment,and am just going to allow myself the thrill of watching Barack Obama become the President of the United States. This is proof positive that at least some sort of change is possible.
Let us hope that we can also effect change on other things as well - like ending the corporate greed and capitalist culture of cancer-like growth. That's next.
For now, I'm enjoying the moment. It's been a damn long time coming.

Jacques de Beaufort said...

don't know about all those brilliant suggestions from the shivering masses, but I do know that Mike Ruppert seems to making some good sense lately:

CIVIL UNREST IN THE UNITED STATES

This is little more than hunch at the moment. The three likeliest states to have civil unrest first are Michigan, California and Ohio. These are the states hardest hit by job cuts. Ohio is of most concern to me. California is just huge and fragmented. The "fires" here would be rapidly "extinguished" by a state that has well-developed and longstanding historical plans for civil unrest going back to the 1960s. There are really probably five states in California and the fire is unlikely to spread from one "region" to another because each region has a different economic base and a different culture. Michigan is geographically off to the side of the board and already something of a "wasteland". There are no densely-packed masses of dry kindling nearby.

But Ohio is entirely different. Already devastated by auto layoffs and other massive corporate failures, Ohio's industrial areas border and are in close proximity to Kentucky, West Virginia, Indiana and Pennsylvania. Lots of kindling in those states. At the same time as Ohio is devastated by DHL, auto and other layoffs, much of the nation's high-tech wind turbine industry in Ohio is also shutting down at the same time… just when we need it. The snake eats its own tail for nutrition. It is the way money works… for now.

Civil unrest in Ohio could easily infect across state lines here, and cross another fault line that runs east and west, separating north from south; the Mason Dixon. Other earthquakes might be triggered. Eastward from Ohio are Pennsylvania and New Jersey. I wonder how much inter-agency advance planning DHS and FEMA have gone through so that they might operate fluidly across many borders, radio frequencies and jurisdictions. Those contingencies were planned for in the Patriot Act which congress didn't or couldn't read before voting on it. I described all of this in detail in my essay, "The 'F' Word" in 2001.

There isn't even ten per cent of the military manpower required to impose national martial law in the Continental U.S. (CONUS). But my guess is that there will be an expansion of troop deployment in the region around Ohio soon. We should all be watching where troops are
stationed as they (and if) they start coming home.

We all will have a clear understanding of who Barack Obama is and what he represents in short order. He, his administration, and whatever his base is are going to have to show their cards soon. Very soon. What we know is that many of the so-called energy and economic "solutions" espoused by Barack Obama during the campaign and since the election will fail abysmally, at or near the gate. What we pray for are more frequent and stronger signals that ears are open to any who might have some real answers… namely the Peak Oil/Sustainability movement.

In the meantime… In looking at how civil unrest will unfold in the United States it has become pretty apparent that martial law, as we
understand it will not be marked by either large numbers of troops/police in the streets or the oh-so-beloved concentration camp myths of the Far Right. The reason I have made this statement consistently for at least nine years is the same in both cases: lack of resources. There are not enough troops and there is also not enough money, food and manpower to put millions of Americans in expensive concentration camps… AND feed them.

The current economic paradigm's approach will be to leave as many
displaced Americans as a self-mobile migrant work force that will feed, clothe and house itself on its own. That is much less expensive! Plus, when massive labor is needed it will take the labor pool to the work like a man dying of thirst will run for fresh water. The basic expense here is just to police and contain the mess, sort of put a fence around it.


http://www.mikeruppert.blogspot.com/

RAS said...

I guess I have a bit of both freeacre and murph's perspectives. I see and deeply appreciate the Kleenze moment and will probably be crying as I watch the inauguartion tomorrow. At the same time, I am deeply cynical that anything is going to change other than 'more of th same'. That's what I expect.
But we'll see.

Oh, unrelated but noteworthy: NPR had a story on this morning about how China is worried about an outbreak of bird flu among humans over the course of the Chinese New Year. That is something to watch.

freeacre said...

Even worse than the Bird Flu in China is this little piece from the Sun: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2146286.ece
It looks like some sort of super virulent "plague" used against Al Queada. Kills within hours. WTF?

Jacques de Beaufort said...

I bet Dark Ops orchestrated the outbreak.

Didn't the influenza outbreak in 1917/18 actually kill more people than WW I ?

RAS said...

Jacques, I think so.
Did anyone else notice the mixed messages in Obama's speech today? Now, I think it was a great speech and I'm going to give the man a chance (and yes, I did cry today) but I am the sort who has to listen critically.

On the one hand he said things like: "That we are in the midst of crisis is now well understood... Our economy is badly weakened, a consequence of greed and irresponsibility on the part of some, but also our collective failure to make hard choices and prepare the nation for a new age."
And "We remain a young nation, but in the words of Scripture, the time has come to set aside childish things. The time has come to reaffirm our enduring spirit; to choose our better history; to carry forward that precious gift, that noble idea, passed on from generation to generation: the God-given promise that all are equal, all are free and all deserve a chance to pursue their full measure of happiness."

"This is the journey we continue today. We remain the most prosperous, powerful nation on Earth. Our workers are no less productive than when this crisis began. Our minds are no less inventive, our goods and services no less needed than they were last week or last month or last year. Our capacity remains undiminished. But our time of standing pat, of protecting narrow interests and putting off unpleasant decisions - that time has surely passed. Starting today, we must pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and begin again the work of remaking America."

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals...."

"And to those nations like ours that enjoy relative plenty, we say we can no longer afford indifference to the suffering outside our borders; nor can we consume the world's resources without regard to effect. For the world has changed, and we must change with it."

On the other hand, he said things like:
"The state of the economy calls for action, bold and swift, and we will act - not only to create new jobs, but to lay a new foundation for growth. We will build the roads and bridges, the electric grids and digital lines that feed our commerce and bind us together. We will restore science to its rightful place, and wield technology's wonders to raise health care's quality and lower its cost. We will harness the sun and the winds and the soil to fuel our cars and run our factories."

"We will not apologize for our way of life, nor will we waver in its defense," (Newsflash Obama: our way of life IS the problem)
"...and for those who seek to advance their aims by inducing terror and slaughtering innocents," (What, like the U.S. military? Sorry, I couldn't help it.)

I hope he's easing the people towards the notion of change and sacrifice, but when he says something like those last two quotes, I don't know. But I fully intend to give him the benefit of the doubt. "Hope" springs eternal, I suppose.

Anonymous said...

To put the day's proceedings in perspective, I felt an over-whelming compunction to copy and paste the entirety of Kirwan's latest. Please forgive me, but this guy sounds so clear-sighted I just have to offer his perception.

The Answer Is Hiding In Plain Sight
by Jim Kirwan

"The Inauguration that should have happened ­ didn't. The people of this nation and the world are desperately searching for answers and today they missed their one huge chance to turn everything around in just this one day. We could have avoided this outcome, this sterile failure of what any government ought to have done, to prevent the coming failure of this nation.

When Bush went to board Marine One for the flight from the White House to Andrews Air Force Base he and Cheney should have been arrested by US Marshals, backed up by US Marines and taken immediately to Ft.Leavenworth, to await their trials, in solitary confinement, for war-crimes and treason against the people of theUnited States.
Then, Obama could have topped Roosevelt's first Inaugural speech to explain to the nation just exactly how he (Obama) was going to begin to fix this mess: beginning at the top with the criminals that caused it and continuing on through the whole sordid mess. That's exactly what Roosevelt did in his first Inaugural speech. Here's the beginning of that speech in 1933, in which FDR blames the money changers, and vows to root them out of this society. The whole speech is in the footnote below.

"I am certain that my fellow Americans expect that on my induction into the Presidency I will address them with a candor and a decision which the present situation of our people impel. This is preeminently the time to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Nor need we shrink from honestly facing conditions in our country today. This great Nation will endure as it has endured, will revive and will prosper. So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself-nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. In every dark hour of our national life a leadership of frankness and vigor has met with that understanding and support of the people themselves which is essential to victory. I am convinced that you will again give that support to leadership in these critical days.

In such a spirit on my part and on yours we face our common difficulties. They concern, thank God, only material things. Values have shrunken to fantastic levels; taxes have risen; our ability to pay has fallen; government of all kinds is faced by serious curtailment of income; the means of exchange are frozen in the currents of trade; the withered leaves of industrial enterprise lie on every side; farmers find no markets for their produce; the savings of many years in thousands of families are gone.

More important, a host of unemployed citizens face the grim problem of existence, and an equally great number toil with little return. Only a foolish optimist can deny the dark realities of the moment.

Yet our distress comes from no failure of substance. We are stricken by no plague of locusts. Compared with the perils which our forefathers conquered because they believed and were not afraid, we have still much to be thankful for. Nature still offers her bounty and human efforts have multiplied it. Plenty is at our doorstep, but a generous use of it languishes in the very sight of the supply. Primarily this is because the rulers of the exchange of mankind's goods have failed, through their own stubbornness and their own incompetence, have admitted their failure, and abdicated. Practices of the unscrupulous money changers stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men.

True they have tried, but their efforts have been cast in the pattern of an outworn tradition. Faced by failure of credit they have proposed only the lending of more money. Stripped of the lure of profit by which to induce our people to follow their false leadership, they have resorted to exhortations, pleading tearfully for restored confidence. They know only the rules of a generation of self-seekers. They have no vision, and when there is no vision the people perish.

The money changers have fled from their high seats in the temple of our civilization. We may now restore that temple to the ancient truths. The measure of the restoration lies in the extent to which we apply social values more noble than mere monetary profit." (1)

Compare Roosevelt's speech with the pathetic effort that Obama delivered this afternoon, wherein Barack blamed the public for not working hard enough, for not coming together enough, for not "believing" enough in this government that has done nothing but lie to us for the last eight years.

In fact the money-changers are still being protected: And under Obama their influence will grow not diminish, despite the fact that they (on instructions from the Illuminati and the Zionists) are driving this colossal Depression that is shutting down every aspect of this nation and the global financial community. This is our 'Great Hope' for the restoration of American life?

For the last eight years the nation has not had any oversight from the same congress from which so many of the "new faces" were directly chosen-including Obama. And the martial display on the Capital building façade today should have had Israeli flags hanging there, instead of the Stars & Stripes; because so many of the new members of the Cabinet and the government are now Israeli's or Zionist sympathizers. Beginning with Obama, Hillary Clinton, and Pelosi but including his Chief of Staff and the whole cadre of stand-in's that do not put America's well being at the top of their private agenda's but instead, for them, Israel's survival comes first.

This crime has to include the 531 members of this faux congress that voted to defend Israel's slaughter of the Arab and Muslim populations in Gaza, during the latest Israeli outrage as well. Israel has committed piracy on the high seas, while violating every provision of US and International Law during the 60 years that they've been screwing the rest of world outright and with impunity. (2)

On top of that; three times today, on main-stream-media, in the course of the official ceremonies we were lectured by preachers and told repeatedly about God and who God will and should bless-when in fact this was supposed to be a secular event, paid for by the state. To insert God into these proceedings in so crass a manner was insulting to everything that the American government: The one that was to be "of, by and for the people" was supposed to stand for. But all of that got lost in the born-again nature of the three insulting speeches that together totaled more time than it took Obama to make his rather-pedestrian inaugural address.

This was not a good beginning, but this goes to the fact that this man with three different names, from three different countries is not qualified to hold that office.

Too bad America-you really blew the one chance we had to turn everything around in a heartbeat. The world would have cheered wildly, applauded, and then they could have begun to laugh and breath again if we had just owned up to our responsibilities to lock up these criminals and in so-doing, we would have shown the world that we mean what we say about the sanctity of law and all that other drivel that Obama muttered on about during that fairy-tale he presented as his Inaugural address to the nation and the world.

With that single act the entire world could have been granted a chance to turn this entire series of crimes into a totally new beginning for the world, as well as the US. But there is no law and the whole world knows it; just as there is no moral compass, regardless of how many preachers try to ignore the truth behind that fact. But as we 'know' that action would never be taken by these people, because the "new administration" is part of the cabal that stole the last three elections and the nation. They planned this: so they are not about to undo any of it!

Instead of change, Obama plans to take years to 'fix' our problems: but he knows that he has only a few weeks at best to turn this all around-meanwhile California is going broke along with several other states, and there is no relief in sight, more states will follow California's lead, and the feds can't be far behind because the nation is beyond broke. We are destitute and we are finally admitting that we are in the Depression that has existed for at least the last two years for those same people that Obama just blamed this afternoon for all our problems!

So much for the road not taken ~ "

-rockpicker

Anonymous said...

"...but there is no law, and the whole world knows it..."

...in this realization
do I weep for my children...

-rp

Anonymous said...

Fuck OBAMA and the pigs that eat from the same trough as he!!!
the vision of the carnage that is on its way is a nightmare that cannot even be put into words!
it is done, so be it,
let the darkness called forth by the people themself upon themselfs gain in strength for it is in total destruction that a new world will arise,.... maybe.
fuck it
we are ready.
people of turtle island/
mf

Dave said...

I glanced at the site you mentioned and my overall impression is that most of the suggestions were puerile and lacked a grasp of the overriding factors, such as the mountainous debt crushing our economy, peak oil and excessive government that’s sucking up too many resources. There were some good suggestions, like the one to offer incentives for people to generate energy at home from solar and wind power. Not that that will solve our energy problems, but it’s a good start and a good idea. I’ve been wanting to do that myself. If there were tax incentives to help offset the cost, I’d pursue it with vigor. Of course, such a scheme runs counter to the interests of the energy monopoly, a major campaign donor, so I doubt it would gain much traction.

I’ve consistently observed a sort of naiveté among supporters of Mr. Obama. Usually when I encounter someone who’s overly enthusiastic about the guy, my first thought is, just what do they think one man can do anyway? He’s not a god. My second thought is, don’t they realize that he’s just another product of our political system, which more or less guarantees that only the crummiest people float to the surface of the cesspool? Thirdly, he’s owned by his campaign contributors, which are the major corporations and lobbying organizations. They have a strong interest in resisting any real change and continuing with business as usual. Finally, what separates the men from the boys, so to speak, is that the former recognize that some problems are too intractable to overcome. The only way to cope with such huge obstacles is to go around them or go back to where you came from. I’m referring to peak oil here, which dictates that we go back to a simpler way of living. Continued growth is impossible, not just because of peak oil, but because of the finite nature of the entire planet. Consequently, any proposed solution that promises continuance of business as usual or continued growth is inherently flawed.

By the way, there is a huge arithmetic error in the calculations of the guy who thinks we should disburse $1 trillion among the population. We’d each get $3,000, not $3 million. That would barely be sufficient for some people to make a single month’s house payment.

Dave - Erstwhile Urban Wanderer

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

I am back on line at the new address from about an hour ago but still living at the old address for now. Life threw another one of those curves at me that I could have done without but it would not be so interesting if there no problems to deal with. I will probably move most of the stuff over this weekend and ease my way in back here as time allows. This turn of topic is not really my shout anyway. I will just get hit by the shock wave after the initial explosion is well out of the way.

Aho

murph said...

Dave,

I have to laugh, yup, off by 3 decimal points. Surprised I didn't catch it. Not clear thinking on my part.

Dean sent me this link:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/
edwin192.htm

Excellent argument. There is a bunch of other argument by this guy that are worth reading too.

I suspect that we are going to see very soon just what direction Obama is going to take. I am not optimistic. But, it sure appears to me that we have no other alternative than to wait and see, unfortunately. I think that no matter what, most citizens of this country are in for some terrible times.

murph said...

Dave,

I have to laugh, yup, off by 3 decimal points. Surprised I didn't catch it. Not clear thinking on my part.

Dean sent me this link:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/
edwin192.htm

Excellent argument. There is a bunch of other argument by this guy that are worth reading too.

I suspect that we are going to see very soon just what direction Obama is going to take. I am not optimistic. But, it sure appears to me that we have no other alternative than to wait and see, unfortunately. I think that no matter what, most citizens of this country are in for some terrible times.

Anonymous said...

Well, RAS, it seems like you and I are the only ones to react to O's statement that he won't apologize for our way of life. I've been surfing a few of my usual haunts and none of the comments on the speech even allude to it.

I didn't have much hope for any substantive change from him, and didn't listen to or watch any of the festivities yesterday. But, I checked Olbermann's site this morning and switched to another site after hearing that declaration. I couldn't listen to any more. That one sentence alone killed any slight hope I had that we might see any change. As you say, he doesn't even see what the problem is, how can he fix it. And as intelligent as he's supposed to be, that not seeing must be deliberate. So, I guess it's full speed ahead into the abyss.

I think I'll go fix a drink.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

Rp, if you are feeling a bit isolated in your views, I will put a comment up re your long C&P of yesterday.

Old friend, I have to be the one to tell you that believing in conspiracy theories is like rolling the sleeves up on your jacket, It used to be cool but if you do it now you will only draw attention to yourself;-) There, I have said it!

I was also a bit sceptical of this guy’s comment about arresting Bush and Cheney. I mean, would that be it or would there be a desire to go further. What about Libby or Gonzo or Perle or Negraponte; where would it stop? And apart from anything else, predictions are that Obama is in for a rough ride himself so he doesn’t want to set any precedents. I have said before that all these mentioned characters are just actors reading lines but the playwright stays well out of the limelight.

It is really not my intention to spoil anybodies Obama moment so I will just say this; I see the situation as analogous to Russia in 1918. The country was on its knees, the Romanoff’s had been ceremoniously got out of the way (a bit like the Bush Cheney suggestion) and the populous was fired up to make the revolution work for them. Workers were doing double shifts for meagre pay just to put the country they now believed was theirs, back on its feet. What did not emerge until many years later was that the benefits of this enthusiasm were going directly into the pockets of the Rothschild family who had bank rolled Lenin. By the time that debts had been paid off the Russian people saw that they were no better off under Communism than they had been under the Czars. Then Lenin died, smiling Joey S took the reigns and the rest is history.

Having said that, I have my fingers crossed behind my back and secretly hope that Obama’s deeds are as true as his words.

murph said...

Rockpicker,

I happen to agree with your sentiments concerning the inauguration and the lack of retribution on the people that have brought us to this position nationally and world wide. It appalls me that those folks might get away with all the harm they have done. Here is our take on this.

First off, the sheer volume of the people involved would stretch back in time all the way to Reagan in principal, at least I see it really taking off during that administration. The government would be paying out billions to prosecute them all. If we limited it to just the Bush II administration, there are at least a dozen, maybe more to take on. It would/will take years to prosecute them and a bunch of bucks.

Let's take a look at the national situation. This country is fractured into two main divisions right now. Those that were defending the neocons and those that couldn't stand them. We have been discussion for over 4 years that there seems to be no communication between the two factions. If the Obama group had tried to do anything even approaching immediate arrest, can we project the consequences? One outcome might very well have been an open shooting vicious rebellion. Hell, the military might even have gotten involved. One thing for sure, Obama's ability to do ANYTHING would have been immediately halted and I imagine the secrete service would have been ineffectual in his protection against a determined para military group.

One of the things he campaigned on was ending the divisions in the country. Whether he will be successful at all remains to be seen. But, if he had done an immediate arrest of Bush, there would be no chance.

Our conception of who actually is setting policy is also an important consideration. If indeed, as we suspect, Bush and the rest of his group is simply a hierarchy within another hierarchy, who do you grab?

Let's also imagine that one of the scenarios possible; that after some amount of time, Obama turns the Dems loose on the idea and Pelosi begins proceeding with the house indictments. While it would be a bitter pill for the neocons, it might just have more possibility of doing some constructive retribution.

All of my values that go into how I think people need to conduct themselves in a society and government are violated by those S.O.B.'s. They caused much harm and needless suffering. I want them to get what they deserve. And, maybe an open shooting fight between the two factions is the only thing left and whoever is left standing is the only outcome possible in the end.

The fact that the last number of government administrations were shortsighted, greedy, malicious, vindictive, war mongering, bastards is beside the point. We as a nation have allowed ourselves to be manipulated and overrun by the money changers. In the end, we have gotten exactly what we voted for, every time. As a society, we have overall, refused to listen to those that had good reason to question who we voted for, the values we lived by, and the actions that have been enforced upon us. Whether this election is a change from this path remains to be seen. But, it is done now, and all we can do right now is wait and see what transpires. We can rail and piss and moan about all of it and press on with our efforts to bring some sanity to it all. Social momentum is very difficult to overcome. It might happen now or at some point in the future. History shows that. The universe has ever more surprises, disappointments and great things in store for us.

freeacre said...

I am taking heart in the fact that Obama has already signed directives to close the Guantanamo prison camp, stop the kangaroo court military tribunals, close the alternative "black ops" interrogation sites,stop wire-tapping without a warrant,and ending harsh interrogation anywhere. That's pretty friggin' amazing to me for a first couple of days...oh, yeah, and get out of Iraq.
If he had put prosecuting Bush and Cheney number one, all he'd be doing for the next four years is fight with the fuckers who voted for Bush. I think (hope) that they will get theirs, but I think they'll go at them from a different angle. Obama is going to have to play a game as complicated as 3 dimensional chess to win on the world scene today. There's no way people on the outside can possibly know what undercurrents and secret shit is going on that influence decisions. Given our experience, it's almost impossible to have a sense of trust in our leadership. But, we'll see if down the road they will earn it. I hope so.
Our friend who was interviewed for a job with Health and Human Services, tells us that Obama has chosen top people with experience who have clout on the higher levels. But, he also has hired a small army of people who are young, brilliant, totally non-partisan, and innovative to staff these different departments who, he thinks, will come up with perspectives and ideas that will really work. They aren't the same old hacks and numbnuts Joe Bob Seminary graduates that the Bush administration hired.
I'm looking at it like a gardener. The seeds are being planted. We'll see what comes up in the Fall.

RAS said...

I'm heartened by the actions of the past few days and, as I have said previously, I intend to give the man a fair shot. I voted for him because I thought he was a pretty good choice amongst a generally bad lot. I'm just not going to hold my breath for a complete turnaround.

But that one phrase "We will not apologize for our way of life, nor will we waver in its defense..." is still sticking in my craw.

Palooka's Revenge said...

one thing obama isn't is stupid! day one he signs an exec order on the FOIA and sez something like, the old policy of gov subverting info is OVER. time will tell if thats so. i'm not saying this is his agenda but, IF there's any intent on his part to someday get pro-active on prosecution of the bushco/neocon machine and perhaps beyond (cuz it sure as hell goes beyond), i can't think of a smarter way to begin than that exec order. let the people seek the documents that may be the evidence and release them to their scrutiny. then it goes from there. that way he's not the instigator. if that is on his agenda he gets his cake and eat it too so to speak.

murph is right on this. doing something like that article suggested would be political suicide for obama and could well be the trigger that sets the 2 sides to civil war. the populace is divided on this line and its a highly charged line. both emotionally and ideologically. wars seldom solve those underlying issues. they just keep coming back and back and back. just ask the sunni and the shia. the christian and the muslim. the north and the south.

RAS said...

I agree with murph and pa. As much as I would like to see Bush hauled off in irons, if Obama had done that it would have been a disaster. It would have ruined his presidency from the git-go. This is the first transfer of power widely held to be legitimate since Clinton's first inauguration (the repubs never did accept him as a legitimate president) and that would have ruined that.

I had a very nice experience at the local free clinic last night. I had to go in to get seen for my sinuses. I have got to get out of this city. It drives my sinuses mad. But anyway, despite the four hour wait time they were really nice and respectful. No one treated me like crap for not making any money or having insurance. Granted, some of the nurses should have retired completely before I was born (they were that old, lol and I am real glad I didn't need bloodwork!) but I'm grateful they were there. I got a script for antibiotics that were only $4 and I'm all ready feeling much better.

RAS said...

P.S. The governement of iceland came down today. The cards are starting to fall...

feeacre said...

Glad you were able to be treated at a free clinic, ras. Hope you get well. Eat lots of garlic.

The Murphinator is not quite himself. I ordered "The Women" from Netflix, and I think he has been suffering some form of post traumatic stress syndrome since watching it. lol. We've had to watch a couple of Stephen Segall and Wesley Snipes movies to get his hormone levels back up to normal..He'll be OK....

Did you see CBS News tonight? It featured a "poor" yuppie scumbag who has been laid off from the finance industry for nine months and has been reduced to doing the family laundry in his three story brick mansion. Gee, and his severance package is running out. Maybe he could rent out a couple of floors of the palace that he lives in to some of the people who have been thrown out of their homes. Somehow, I think he'll get by, the fuck. So, this is how the lamestream is portraying the collapse. Notice there are no references to the tent cities skirting most of the major cities in the country or all the people living in what were once their travel trailers.

Happily, our local Grange approved our plans to form a Farmers Market and trading post, and it will begin the first Saturday in Feb. Small tables are only $5 and free to Grange members. I think this will be a good start to helping out and raising consciousness about how to localize food and services and help each other get through this mess.

RAS said...

Oh, how I hate those stories! They keep doing them, and they are becoming more and more common. Yesterday NPR interviewed a man who had ALL of his (millions) of dollars of life savings invested with Madoff and has, of course, lost all of it. He was bitching about how he needs to go back to work because he can't imagine living off of his $22,000 a year Social Security. I know a lot of people who would kill to get that much money a year.

Anonymous said...

Belgium;

Thanks for the advice on the rolled sleeves. Oldensoul found me a nice, zip-up front wool sweater I've been wearing since Christmas.

Murph;

I agree that the country is divided, but I see the division along lines of perception.

We have the majority in this country who listen to and trust the lamestream, and we have a smaller group who have mostly abandoned tv, NPR and print media, recognizing these institutions as the propagandist arm of the military/industrial/governmental establishment. And those two sides seldom talk to each other.

Like two sides of Main Street, here, when Bush started the Iraq war. One side protested the war as insane policy, while the other side, the larger group of sanctimonious flag-wavers, cat-called derisive epithets and hurled smelly projectiles. No joke, it was a mess. We all know how that one turned out.

This divisivness is rooted in consciously manipulated perception of reality. Obviously, the ones who run the show know how important controlling the mass consciousness is to their own success. And, they've learned, over years of tweaking and observation, what works most efficiently. (Brasscheck just ran a short piece about how the brain responds to television.) The Nazi's were famously involved with mass-consciousness manipulation.

My point is, we who come to the internet are readers and writers. Our brains function differently than those who sit mesmerized in front of electronic media, absorbing a steady stream of selected sound bytes and carefully chosen imagery.

Case in point, the recent genocide of Gaza. Our press told us only that the Israeli's were responding to Hamas aggression. To hear the "legitimate" press tell it, the Palestinians had it coming. Wave those Stars of David.

Those of us who followed events on the net know another side of the story enfolded. That is our reality. But the majority of our countrymen, though they be decent, hard-working, fun-loving folk, are ignorant to that reality which the ptb wish to keep hidden.

Two more examples. If you do not know about the USS Liberty, look it up. You won't believe that story. Here's one location.

http://52.thelastoutpost.com/video-2/zionist-jewism/attack-on-the-uss-liberty.html

The other story is Partain's assessment of Oklahoma City.

I must apologize, here. I had intended to provide a link at this point where you could go watch Partain's power point presentation about the Oklahoma City bombing. This guy was a retired military demolitions expert, who had access to the building before it was torn down. I thought I'd saved that presentation, but I don't see it in my alt. news file. Googling turned up nothing relevant. Apparently, it has been expunged. I do have a copy of a letter sent to Trent Lott in which Partain explains his findings. I'll post that in another comment.

Perhaps this makes my point. Partain says, unequivocally, the official story line was bullshit. Could not possibly have happened the way the government and the media claimed.

I would guess that his little talk came to the attention of high-ups, and has been removed. Wouldn't doubt if he's been quietly warned to cool it, too.

-rockpicker

Anonymous said...

Ok, here's the rest of the story.

Here's the copy of the letter Partin wrote to Lott.


Letter from Gen. Partin to U.S. Sen. Trent Lott Benton K. Partin Brigadier Gen. USAF (Ret.)
8908 Captains Row
Alexandria, Virginia 22308
703-780-7652
July 30, 1995

Sen. Trent Lott
United States Senate
487 Senate Russell Office Building
Washington, DC 205102403

Dear Sen. Lott:

The attached report contains conclusive proof that the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, was not caused solely by the truck bomb. Evidence shows that the massive destruction was primarily the result of four demolition charges placed at critical structural points at the third floor level.

Weapons Experience: I do not offer such an analytical conclusion lightly. I have spent 25 years in research, design, development, test and management of weapons development. This included: handson work at the Ballistic Research Laboratories; Commander of the Air Force Armament Technology Laboratory, and ultimately management responsibility for almost every nonnuclear weapon device in the Air Force (at the Air Force System command, Air Staff and the Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD) levels). I was also the first chairman of the OSD joint service Air Munitions Requirements and Development Committee. (A more detailed resume appears at Tab 1.)

Observations in Oklahoma City: To verify earlier analysis, I visited Oklahoma City during the last week of June. There I had the opportunity to view hundreds of photographs taken throughout the cleanup operation as the layers of debris were cleared away. The photos present irrefutable evidence that at least four demolition charges were set off at four critical columns of the reinforced concrete structure at the floor level of the third floor.

Conclusion: Based on my experience in weapons development and bomb damage analysis, and on my review of all evidence available, I can say, with a high level of confidence, that the damage pattern on the reinforced concrete superstructure could not possibly have been attained from the single truck bomb. The total incompatibility of this pattern of destruction with a single truck bomb lies in the simple, incontrovertible fact that some of the columns collapsed that should not have collapsed if the damage were caused solely by a truck bomb, and, conversely, some of the columns were left standing that should have collapsed if the damage had been caused solely by the truck bomb.

It is my hope and request that, as a Member of Congress, you will support a Congressional investigation to determine the true initiators of this bombing, which could not have occurred the way in which it has been portrayed as having happened. Further, it is requested that you defer action and reserve judgment on socalled antiterrorism legislation that has serious civil liberties implications, and which would not be passed except for the Oklahoma City bombing until the causes of the Oklahoma City disaster are determined by independent investigators.

Both the Federal Building in Oklahoma and the Trade Center in New York (See New York Times, October 28, 1993, p. A1) show evidence of a counterterrorism sting gone wrong.

No government law enforcement agency should be permitted to demolish, smash and bury evidence of a counterterrorism sting operation, sabotage or terrorist attack without a thorough examination by an independent, technically competent agency.

If an aircraft crashed because of a bomb, or a counterterrorism sting or an FAA Controller error, the FAA would not be permitted to gather and bury the evidence. The National Transportation Safety Board would have been called in to conduct an investigation and where possible every piece of debris would have been collected and arrayed to determine cause of failure.

To remove all ambiguity with respect to the use of supplementary demolition charges, the FBI should be required to release the high quality surveillance color TV camera tape of the Murrah building bombing on April 19, 1995.

It is my observation that the effort required to bomb the A. P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City pales in comparison with the effort to cover up evidence in Oklahoma and the media's withholding of vital information from the American people.

Sincerely yours,

Benton K. Partin
Brigadier Gen. USAF (Ret.)
BKP:aw
Enclosure

Resume of Brig. Gen. Benton R. Partin USAF (Ret.) OKC Bomb Report Index Page

Home-Contacts-Top-Matrix-Nebula


Just discovered I searched the wrong name (sp?) Let me keep looking.

-rp

Anonymous said...

Okay, I found the link of the General speaking on the OKC bombing.
Here it is;

http://tobefree.wordpress.com/2007/12/23/brigadier-general-ben-partin-the-oklahoma-city-bombing/

Actually, I'm a little surprised this hasn't disappeared. It's been said the ptb don't really care anymore, they're that sure of themselves.

On the question of letting Bush and Cheney get away inaugueration day, okay, I concede it might be bad form arresting the dispicable duo just as they were making their get away.

And I can see the beauty of Palooka's scheme to allow a popular movement of grassroots muckrakers, with pitchforks and pikes, storming Washington with torches and FOIA requests crumpled in their fists. Great image.

Fact of the matter is, I'm afraid Dick and George got away Scott free.

People seem more concerned with preserving the peace than fixing real problems.

You don't fix the economy that has been taken down deliberately by looting the public's treasure and giving it to those who caused the problem in the first place.

Congress and the banks are carrying out the greatest redistribution of wealth in the history of humankind, and we're sitting around with our thumbs up our collective asses, wondering how badly they intend to fuck us.

If Obama was going to "fix" the problem, would he choose a past president of the New York Federal Reserve Bank as Treasury secretary?

The Federal Reserve IS the problem!

Why the fuck are we paying these bankster mobsters our hard-earned cash to manage the money supply and control interest rates? They've been doing a great job, eh?

Murph is right, we deserve everything we get. Instead of lopping off heads, we let the politicians vote themselves cost- of- living increases. The ptb have no respect for the timid, the meek or the peaceseekers.

If Obama does the right thing, he'll be taken out, like Jack and Bobby. If he plays it safe, and does as his handlers demand, he'll share a place in ignominy with Hoover, and we will all be the worse for his lack of boldness.

-rp

Anonymous said...

This is good. From LATOC, and article about how congress now wants to make the Fed a supreme financial regulatory body. Shit, we don't even know who belongs to the Federal Reserve. That's because it's a big secret. Because the Federal Reserve is a private corporation made up of member banks. Barney Franks wants to give these bastards even more power! Incredible!!

-rockpicker

Anonymous said...

update on possible prosecution of bushco-ites...

the tree is being pro-actively shaken. the chief UN rep on torture was on CNN today calling for the US to form a prosecution team. he said point blank there is hard evidence linking rum-nuts to torture directives and implied this leads directly to bush's blessing.

when asked why the UN was putting it off on the US to do instead of doing the dirty work themselves in international tribunal he said they have no authority since gitmo is US territory and this particular evidence is linked directly to gitmo where the torture was carried out and thus, not international territory relative to the US. (that "excuse" strikes me as weak at best and perhaps fishy at worst as torture was far from confined to gitmo)

part of the discussion included if obama... if he doesn't execute an order to mandate prosecution... would then be in violation of a regan exec order that still stands and mandates such prosecution for torture crimes and other crimes against humanity. this raises the question... could obama be prosecuted for not prosecuting in the face of the evidence?

this is at least the 2nd time i've heard the issue on MSM since the inaugeration. i have no accountable details on the first incident. it was running in the background and i just caught it periferally. couldn't direct my attention away from what i was doing but ALL the key buzzwords and buzznames were there. i recall this happened within a day of rp's comment followed by murph's and my own. i thought to say something here but i just didn't have any solid info since i couldn't focus on the piece directly.

rp.... "This divisivness is rooted in consciously manipulated perception of reality."

though i agree there is definitly conscious intent on the part of insitgators and handlers, to a large extent this dynamic is being fueled through alignments being held on the subconscious level. iow, propagandists (particularly MSM) are being actively propagandised. this after massive conditioning was put into place over many, many moons. most, even in MSM, are just pawns in the game getting their chain jerked. just as our friend the mortage broaker was trained to sell the deal, they too are trained.

does that "ignorance" excuse? hell no! we're all responsible for our own chain, conscious or not. i expect that, in the cosmic court of justice, there is hell to pay. and pay back has begun! ...p

murph said...

Palooka,


does that "ignorance" excuse? hell no! we're all responsible for our own chain, conscious or not. i expect that, in the cosmic court of justice, there is hell to pay. and pay back has begun! ...p

Oh yes.

freeacre said...

On the other hand, it is just amazing to watch TPTB bring it all down by themselves. I mean, they are destroying the "wealth" of the whole developed world! It's like they can't stop themselves. The end of the world as we knew it.
This has not come about due to a revolution of the masses or anything even remotely close. They are doing it to themselves! Amazing!
For the most part, the masses remain clueless.
Maybe it is Divine Intervention. Maybe it coincides with a polar shift. There does seem to be a Great Reckoning going on. Praise be.

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