Tuesday, December 27, 2011

Freedom and Order

photo credit to blogodak.com

from Belgium (sats)

It is not usual for me to talk about film reviews in a piece like this however sometimes a piece from a film strikes you as significant or starts a thought process. So it was with the film Satantango (Satan's Tango) by Bella Tarr. It is a hell of a film and is only for the very brave. The storyline is not linear, rather it goes backward and forward like tango dancers. The reason it is a hell of a film is that with a quick coffee break and a quick WC break it is eight hours long. That means you go into the cinema at 2 in the afternoon and come out at 10 at night, unless like me you watch it on DVD. It is shot in glorious black and white, the spoken language is Hungarian (Magyar) with English under text and during the whole film there is practically no action to speak of apart of the consistency of the rain falling on the quagmire of the Hungarian plain in winter. Having said that, the whole experience affected me greatly and even a month after seeing it I was still thinking of the significance of various parts. The film deals with life after the collapse of communism in Hungary. A group of people try to sell their collective and use the money to become 'free' however the silver tongued Irimias (I-ra-me-as) who everybody thought was dead, turns up and persuades the group to reinvest in a more modern farm somewhere else. He has such eloquence almost everybody agrees, thus placing themselves in a hierarchy under his control. I was going to be nice and call Irimias a false prophet of hope but he is in fact a con man. Because he doesn't work but always seems to have money he and his sidekick Petrina are summoned before the Police Captain to see if they should be turned over to the tax authorities. As it turns out, the police captain lets them off the hook provided they do some spying for him. During the course of the conversation the Captain comes out with the following monologue, which was the starting point for the current post.

"Captain: Not that human life was so highly valued. Keeping order appears to be the business of the authorities, but in fact it's the business of all. Order. Freedom, however, has nothing human. It's something divine, something... our lives are too short for us to know properly. If you're looking for a link, think of Pericles, order and freedom are linked by passion. We have to believe in both, we suffer from both. Both from order and freedom. But human life is meaningful, rich, beautiful and filthy. It links everything. It mistreats freedom only... wasting it, as if it was junk. People don't like freedom, they are afraid of it. The strange thing is there is nothing to fear about freedom... order, on the other hand, can often be frightening."

Hmm, I think this is one of the most profound pieces of dialogue I have ever heard but is it true? There are probably as many meanings of freedom as there are people so let us see if we can come up with a definition which is universally acceptable. Then we can have a look at social order and see if there is any link between the two. Freedom is such a simple word, probably too simple, that we automatically assume we know what it means.
At the end of the last World War the British Prime Minister Winston Churchill made an election broadcast on the radio in which he expressed the view that now the Allies had won the war, the world was free from the tyranny of the Third Rich. Replying the next night Clement Atlee for the opposition said “Mr Churchill has made much of the concept of freedom but it was not many years ago that employers were free to send little children climbing up the inside of chimneys. Is that the sort of freedom to which we wish to return?” This demonstrates that the word is not such an easy take.

Here are Murph's thoughts on the subject from ibid April 2008, which are about as broad as you can get and are difficult for anyone (me at least) to take issue with.

“It would seem obvious to me that a concept of total freedom of action when living in groups cannot work. Being by yourself in the wilderness is not how most of us live. More power to those that do so. The early mountain men were about as free as you can get. But, some enforceable means has to exist to impede those who do not respect others right to freedom within a social context. I sum it up this way; you cannot perform an action which takes away from or restricts another persons freedom, that is, you cannot harm another or their property, and I include the environment. That simple edict would automatically stop environmental degradation, exploitation and legal thievery.”

So, summarising, you can do anything you like so long as it does not harm another or the environment.

Not that many of us are mountain men, in fact most of us in the 'developed' world live in industrialised countries. We live in conurbations from small villages to great cities where by and large we all have to get along with one another. The tighter we pack ourselves the more chaffing occurs which impacts on others rights to do as they like.

Most people do not see that there is a problem with freedom because they believe that they are already free. They feel they have a right to improve their lives, which indeed they do however they exercise this right by placing themselves under almost life-long obligations to financial institutions. What most don't realise is that for a mortgage for instance, for every dollar they borrow over the term of the loan they will pay two dollars in interest. Even if they do realise it they figure there is little they can do about it if they want a place of their own to live. Most buyers do not choose a place that fulfils their spacial needs for a modest price but are influenced by peer pressure to buy the most expensive they can afford. Another thing not commonly realised is that the sort of new properties projected at the aspiring owners are not priced on a cost plus basis but on what is the greatest proportion of average income they can afford to miss and still get by on. That is until negative equity comes along and they suddenly realise that the freedom to own a home does not apply to them. There are only so many times a loan can be restructured before the debt becomes overwhelming. A similar system operates with credit cards, it is only the matter of degree that is different. The minimum repayment is designed so that the interest is on a continuous roll and the principle sum is never paid off. So much for taking the waiting out of wanting.

If people grow up within a system which everybody regards as normal they never realise there may even be a problem with it. So it is with Federal Reserve Notes, or Euros or in fact with the majority of the worlds currencies. In every country which has a national bank, that bank issues the local currency which it prints out of paper and ink and apart from the cost of the building and the printing workers, that is the only cost to the bank. It costs exactly the same to make a hundred dollar bill as it does to make a one dollar bill but the bank sells the currency to the government at the face value of the bill. Not only that but the bank charges the government interest on the currency whilst it is in circulation. You are only allowed one guess where the government gets the money to pay for this. And all the time you thought your taxes went to pay for infrastructure. So where does the money for infrastructure come from? Well that is also borrowed from the national bank as well and the repayments are recouped through income and sales taxes. What alternatives do people have if they don't want the banks to appropriate the benefits of their hourly labour? Well there are Credit Unions. It is very difficult for the government to place a tax on sea shells or chittys for a number of hours worked or what ever else may be used in place of money. The down side is that it is very difficult to buy a Japanese car or any other consumer item with a currency which is not nationally or internationally recognised. Not only this but the pressure on such systems to conform to the national standard is enormous. A question then arises if people participating in such alternatives should be allowed to enjoy the infrastructure paid for by others. Should they be allowed to travel over a bridge which they have not paid for or must they do a twenty mile detour or should they be defended by a national military to which they have not contributed? Allowing the bankers to skim the fruits of your labour is a system which is very difficult to opt out from. As employers were free to send children working up chimneys so also are you free to give the banks a portion of your income. You might not consider this to be much of a freedom and you might be right but it is the system with which most of us are forced to conform.

Over the years, commentators here have bemoaned inflation, the invisible tax. Even though the standard of living has improved over time, the quantity of things that can be bought with a weeks wage has decreased. We have long said that grandfather could work to support a home, a wife and a house full of kids. Then couples decided to leave the kids until until they had filled their house with stuff. When it was realised that women were willing to go out to work, with a bit of strategic nudging, the elite bankers began the femanist movement in order to farm two lots of taxible income instead of one. Where as previously, the second income was there to provide extras, inflation now ensures that the second income is necessary for the family just to get by. The elites are currently progressing onwards and upwards with their unfettered greed. Throughout Europe in general and Belgium in particular the countries have been so reduced by the rolling financial cricis that there is a move by governments to increase the pension age by two years to 67 for men and correspondingly for women. At present there are one day protest strike actions but if something is not done about this increasing disparity of those on either side of the zero sum game then this could develop into Europes Occupy Movement. I don't know how things will pan out but if the situation is left to fester I can't see the Europeans being as genteel as the Occupiers. The elites are becoming more brazen with their stick prodding. Maybe they are anxious to take their new crowd control toys out of their boxes.

Nearly everybody knows that there are three branches of government. The one I am interested in here is the legislature. In the case of the USA this is The Congress and its job is to enact new laws as it sees fit. It has been estimated that the USA has at least a quarter of a million statute laws. Every one of these inhibits a freedom either by denying an action or making an action compulsory. A law is the removal of a freedom, as it dictates that there is something you cannot or must do. If the former, you're not free to do it; if the latter, you're not free to do otherwise. You will probably ask if laws are not for the benefit of all? After all not killing another, God knows it might be you on the receiving end, or not stealing another's property is clearly to the greater good. The purpose of other laws is more moot. Is it to your benefit to have your private telephone conversations listened to by a government body or every e mail read? Is it to your benefit for any US citizen to be withheld indefinitely without trial or even access to a lawyer, yet according to the Military Commissions Act this is the state of US law as it stands at present. Clearly many of the newer laws have less to do with the public good and more to do with controlling the population, thus giving the government more power and the citizenry less. In former times the legislature made just laws, now it just makes laws. This begs the question of who works for whom and why we allow a system in which our freedoms are balanced against us. As an exercise I did try to find a league table of the number of statute laws by country as a measure of which ones were freer than others but if such a table exists I could not find it.

Because the USA does not adequately provide for health care as other countries do, people are forced into very expensive substandard health care where people are obliged to do battle with insurance companies at a time they are least able. This is a clear case of butter or guns; a healthy nation or shiny missiles in a silo. Even if you are dying because you cannot afford appropriate medicines, you are free to know we will get our retaliation in first.

Let us look at a hypothetical example of how freedom might be wasted. Suppose a country existed, for argument sake we will call it The Land of Milk and Honey and this land was ruled over by a benevolent benefactor who was paternalistic towards his own people but who regarded the outside world with some suspicion. In fact this ruler put the well being of his people before that of his own family (now you know I am making it up).

In order to make the lives of his people as free as he possibly could he gave them the following things. Every citizen received a free house, even before the benefactors own parents received one, so the citizenry was free from mortgages and obligations to the financial institutions. Of course nobody was forced into the standard fare and if they wanted to build a mansion at their own expense then they were free to do so. To go with the new free house they were also given free electricity. Throughout the land, there was no difference in status between men and women. As a result of the universal free education, literacy rates had increased above the 90% level. Free education means no student loans. The idea of incurring personal debt for the countries greater benefit was a concept abhorrent to the benefactor. Along with free education there was also free health care. Health care in the land was pretty comprehensive but as an exercise in PR, the leader said that if anyone needed any health care or a procedure that was not available in that country the patient would be taken free of charge to any other land where it was available. If any citizen wanted a loan they could have one from the benefactor free of interest. Agriculture was considered one of the most important professions to the benefit of the community so anyone with serious intent in starting a farm was given land free of charge together with seed for the first year.

Then there were the nice to have things, the icing on the cake: a yearly present of $500 to every citizen; a wedding gift of $50,000 to every couple that got married; the benefactor paid for half the price of a new car and gas throughout the land was 14 cents a gallon.

What silliness! Such a land of Milk and Honey can only exist in children's fairy tales. Yet it was real, it did exist. How many of you guessed that the land I have described was Libya and the paternal benefactor was Colonel Gadaffi. Not everybody's first choice of a leader I will admit but those people didn't live in Libya. When Colonel Gadaffi faced the news cameras and said “Nothing will happen to me because my people love me” he actually believed this to be true.

Now that is all gone, the people in their greater wisdom have decided to swap all of this for the pleasure of having a national bank. Such is the power of persuasion and taking a step backwards whilst the flow goes past.

Those interested in knowing what is behind the Arab Spring can check out the post I wrote here in January 2011 entitled Non Violent Resistance. We know what Libya has given up, you can remind yourselves what Tunisia gave up.

“Human life... mistreats freedom only... wasting it, as if it was junk. People don't like freedom, they are afraid of it. The strange thing is there is nothing to fear about freedom...”. Well it sure looks like the police captain had the right of it after all.

Freedom is a zero sum game in the world of us and them. The more we have the less the PTB have; The more they have the less we have. In order to maintain this disparity the PTB need control and the means of control is Social Order.

Concepts in social order have changed over time. Writing for the American Journal of Sociology in March 1944, Lawrence K Frank had this to say.

“Social order has long been conceived as an organization or mechanism which exists as a part of the cosmos and operates through large-scale forces acting at a distance. Social theory has taught man that he must learn to submit to these assumed forces and accept this cosmic organization as necessary to social order, while social research has attempted to measure these assumed forces. Recent studies of culture and personality indicate that social order is not given but historically developed ideas, beliefs, and patterns of conduct and of feeling which each culture has evolved as the guides to human conduct and the management of group activities.”

Whilst it is certainly true that the type of social order within many cultures is different from each other, the statement that “Social order is not given” has, in recent times, been shown to be false. Since the advent of the internet, the source of social order has been identified and is no longer believed to be an invisible force like gravity acting somewhere out in space. It is now believed to be manipulated by a clique of top international bankers and their programmes acted out through governments, particularly those of the United States and the European Union. It would seem that in recent times, social order is inversely proportional to economic stability. In other words, as the world economy goes to hell, there is a greater social crackdown on the citizenry. Whilst we are unaware that any US citizens have yet been 'rendered', the obvious question is how would we know since checks and balances are now things from a different age?

So far as I am aware there have been no physical conflicts by the US authorities against a large body of its own population apart from the police maintaining the status quo against demonstrators in Seattle, Miami and earlier in Watts. The military were used similarly in Little Rock according to the Force Act when the Alabama authorities refused to let the police intervene. The present effort seems to be a psychological war to undermine the moral confidence of the citizenry. Although there are too many examples to list here, I give a few to demonstrate what I mean.

Do you remember a year or two back a small You Tube clip that went viral of a great bear of a traffic cop tazing a 70 or 80 year old lady over some minor traffic offence. Was this released by a well meaning colleague or was it a set piece intended to build a picture in the mind of the general public? We are in control and you don't matter. This was followed a short time later by a video clip taken with a cell phone camera of students first being tazed and then shot by police in the public areas of a university.

Over in England, the ex government scientist Dean Warwick died on stage whilst in the middle of giving a lecture. Amongst the subjects he had planned to talk about was WTC 1 & 2 and his experience of bringing down different tall buildings, in Russia if memory serves, using only infra-sound waves. Also what really happened with the Lockerbie plane and why a small number of survivors were allowed to die on the hillside of hypothermia. He also said he was going to name the Antichrist. It was commonly believed that he was taken out with some sort of beam weapon which resonates the brain's delta waves. These are the subconscious ones which keep the body's heart and other organs functioning so the body's organs just stop working. A man holding a device which resembled a camera was seen laughing as he left the building after the death. A couple of months later it was reported that one of the minor Rockefeller's was taken out in a parked car in a similar way.

There has been much commentary on this blog and others that drones exist and could be used to break up demonstrations, insurrections and other forms of civil disobedience. If the type of beam weapons mentioned above could be incorporated into such drones then this would give the authorities an awesome advantage.

There have been many reports, on You Tube particularly, of hundreds of detention camps throughout America which according to popular belief, are intended for American citizens whenever the time comes. This is reinforced by images of fenced off fields stacked high with what are reported to be three person open coffins.

Is this all fantasy? The thing that gives it some credibility are the reports that came out of Iraq a little time ago that US troops stationed there were asked if they would be willing to stand militarily against US citizens on US soil. What a strange question, why was it asked at all if there was no intent behind it? And why did President Bush rescind the Posse Comitatus Act which now allows the military to do such things?

Let us remind ourselves where we came in, with the police captain's speech from Satantango.

"Captain: Not that human life was so highly valued. Keeping order appears to be the business of the authorities, but in fact it's the business of all. Order. Freedom, however, has nothing human. It's something divine, something... our lives are too short for us to know properly. If you're looking for a link, think of Pericles, order and freedom are linked by passion. We have to believe in both, we suffer from both. Both from order and freedom. But human life is meaningful, rich, beautiful and filthy. It links everything. It mistreats freedom only... wasting it, as if it was junk. People don't like freedom, they are afraid of it. The strange thing is there is nothing to fear about freedom... order, on the other hand, can often be frightening."

For me this is case proved.

Next time we will have a look to see if it is possible to rescue self order from the authorities. We will examine the part of the police captain's speech which says “Keeping order appears to be the business of the authorities, but in fact it's the business of all” and we will see if such a self ordered Anarchistic type, fairly well developed society has ever existed in the past.


darius said...

I like reading this blog; the posts cause me to think!

I do not take anything written as "gospel" but merely more to peruse and verify or dismiss on my own.

If all you do is prod me to think, it's worth whatever effort you put into it. Thanks.

Anonymous said...


:-) You guys sure know how to negotiate, now you have put up the optional last paragraph I am going to have to come up with another post by the time the comments get up to the 90's – sigh :-)

Darius, all that any of the authors ask is that you think and make up your own mind. To decide whether you completely accept the arguments, accept them with reservations or completely reject them, just so long as you can substantiate your position. That's what makes informed discussion different from propaganda. Mind you, some would have serious issues with the gospels :-)
Thanks for the comment.

Anonymous said...


Re my reference to Non Violent Resistance, I have just seen a documentary on the Canvas Channel about Gene Sharp. His altruism came over as more saintly than Jesus Christ. Now that was propaganda.

freeacre said...

Sorry, Belgium, didn't want to make your life more difficult. I'm just looking forward to learning some examples of balanced societies in history. Thanks for the post. I've been thinking of what "freedom" means to me.
As a renter most of my life, I looked forward to the freedom of owning my own land & home. Now I could paint the walls any color I wanted, plant anything I want, turn up the volume on the music if I feel like it, etc. That is nice. But, there are hidden restrictions, like high fees for permits, restrictions on what or how you can build, how many can live on the property, etc.
Now we live in a surveillance society where we are monitored on many levels. Tracked with our cars, phones, facial recognition, bugged, and targeting for marketing and possible censorship. I consider this an infringement of my freedom, or liberty.
They are in the process of creating a police state wherein all the liberties that we thought distinguished us as Americans are destroyed. When that becomes apparent to the masses, I cannot imagine who would want to sacrifice themselves for this country or even pledge allegiance to it. But, by then, the Overlords won't have to care, I guess.
Freedom seems to be an innate need. It's what captured the imaginations of the people on the planet. Now that we are not free, I doubt our popularity will last. In fact, I think people will despise us for letting it go so easily. As things deteriorate in the US, the rest of the world will point and laugh.

freeacre said...

Spirit, I gotta say that this post is the very best. I have read it 3 or 4 times and I keep getting blown away by each paragraph. You are a tribal treasure.
There seems to be two sides to the coin of freedom. The other side is slavery. We really don't examine directly what slavery is. I think we should. What's the difference between slavery and servitude?
Oh, I have one minor problem with saying that the bankers began the women's movement, I was there at the start. I will agree that the Bankers co-opted the women's movement because it was becoming a threat. The women's movement did not start out so that women could grow up to be soldiers, Wall St. brokers, or play basketball, for Christ's sake. It wasn't about being gay, lesbian, or transgender. It may have grown to encompass that, but it did not start out that way.
The "useless eaters" aren't so useless once you figure out how to make money on them with their every breath. Would you call that slavery?

Hotspringswizard said...

Excellent post SATS. Regarding this you wrote " Those interested in knowing what is behind the Arab Spring can check out the post I wrote here in January 2011 entitled Non Violent Resistance ",
I highly recommend you all read this detailed accounting/timeline ( with lots of worthwhile links ) of what has really gone on before and during this so called " Arab Spring ", information which fully supports SATS January 2011 post:


A timeline & history: One year into the engineered "Arab Spring," one step closer to global hegemony.

....In January of 2011, we were told that "spontaneous," "indigenous" uprising had begun sweeping North Africa and the Middle East in what was hailed as the "Arab Spring." It would be almost four months before the corporate-media would admit that the US had been behind the uprisings and that they were anything but "spontaneous," or "indigenous."....

....As their nations fall under the control of increasing Western influence, the resources once used to placate them and defend their nationalism will now be diverted into the bottomless maw of the parasitic banking combines that are currently destroying both North America and Europe....

Anonymous said...

Writing in from a remote, undisclosed location. Get liquid now.


Anonymous said...


You have managed to capture the essence of the post here Freeacre. Everyone agreed that slavery was immoral and dreadful so we abolished it and set the people free in order for them to choose servitude. Whichever way you try to grab hold of this particular jelly it always seems to navigate its way back to the police captain's speech. I think this is so profound.

According to Derek Jensen an African slave bought in America cost the owner the equivalent of seven years wages for a local employee. So the owner had to pay seven years wages out front for a lifetimes work. The owner had to make sure the slave was well housed, well fed and kept healthy in order to protect his investment. Compare that to what happens now. People have to buy their house and the land it stands on for that matter. They pay the banks twice the value of the house in interest. Now they don't have to be kept healthy only busy, it is no longer necessary for modern pre processed food to be nutritious. In fact the Codex Alimentarius ensures just the opposite. The USA stands at number 37 in the league table of health care standards whilst what are no more than principalities of San Marino and Andorra are ranked at numbers 3 & 4 respectively. The USA is 24 in terms of life expectancy. The two principalities above are 9 & 10.

You are right about the womens' movement though. The first I became aware of it was when Germaine Greer achieved personality status back in the day. In the post I was recalling the part in the film Freedom to Fascism where Aaron Rouso said Nick Rockefeller claimed it for the elites in order for them to capture an extra set of taxable income. In fact they were just jumping an already rolling bandwagon.

Anonymous said...

hey guys... been buzy and not even read the post yet but just checking in here and reading interchange between sats and fa my first reactive thought was that this (slavery vs servitude) is an elementary yet perfect example of what i've been referring to as form change. form changes are often misinterpreted as assuming a fundamental change has taken place in the underlying dymamics (read interactions of energies)leading to change in the manifest form/s. this is not necessarly true and more often than not the same core underlying dynamics are still in play and seeking resoultion... p

freeacre said...

Yes, p. Slavery can morph into many forms. It can be financial, chemical, sexual, cultural obligations, etc. Maybe it began when people were just starting out, and some of them kept "slaves" as sort of "hamburger on the hoof," as it were.
And some people saw that as wrong to use and kill and eat other people. What would encourage that idea would be respect, compassion, empathy, love - a sense that people who are able, should be free.
I don't know what those "energies" are, p, but I know what the feelings are.
I guess when or if the financial house of electric money has the plug pulled, we'll see which side prevails.

freeacre said...

By the way, I want to wish you all the best in 2012. Clif High's reports are predicting some sort of shock and awe event coming in March. The economy, the elections, the wars, the sun, earth changes and on and on. Stay tuned. As i have said, "we were born for this." Hang in there.

Love you.

rockpicker said...


Read this and then go try to have a decent discussion with someone who depends on the MSM for his or her news, and you find that those of us who read and discuss issues on the internet live in and comprise a sub-culture of modern western culture.

I sat at a table recently where three out of four of us ordered sashimi tuna, and ate heartily in apparent oblivion to the dangers of ingesting radioactive foods. Old habits die hard.

Who knows, or cares about SOPA? Only those on the internet. The lamestream views the net as an enemy, so what can we expect from it? PIPA, what's that? NDAA, who cares?

We are like the rolling stone Dylan sings to when he says, "you're invisible now, you got no secrets to conceal. How does it feel?"

We drove 4700 miles in twelve days, saw tons of strangers and relatives, but didn't talk to one person who knew of Charlie McGrath, Max Keiser, Michele Chossudovsky, Webster Tarpley or Gerald Celente. I almost never talk to anyone who's heard of the USS Liberty incident. When I mention the electric universe, I'm met with blank stares. People glance at their watches.

We're anomalous. We read and write about relevant news. We think about freedom and order. We're anachronisms, each and every one of us. Not a lot we can do to change things, yet we somehow feel compelled to pay attention anyhow.
We wouldn't be on here if we didn't prize freedom.

murph said...


Your experience just confirms to me that the vast majority don't care to know this kind of stuff we talk about regularly. It is upsetting, it creates mental conflicts (dissonance), it challenges assumptions, and all of that demands critical analysis which is hard work. Who wants to bother with that?

I suspect that if all this shit going on continues, there will be a whole lot of ideological finger pointing going on as well.

My favorite cognitive dissonance is that we are all to blame. We all got sucked into the system in one way or another. I have no hope that the majority will ever rise up and take responsibility for what has gone on before and change the whole damned set up.

We live in truly interesting times.

lol WV encite

Anonymous said...

fa... feelings ARE energy. thoughts are energy. it is presented that these are the duality of mankind. they are the polarities. the male and the female of the ONE. EM. interacting.

and.... "we were born for this." Hang in there.

you betcha!!

i'd like to offer a thought for consideration on this first day of the new year. as we all have noted from time to time and most recently by both rp and fa, many will not look. many who will not look are far more likely to be fragments. fragments of what? cuz, technically, we're all fragments and all fragments have parents. fragmentation of essence is a real dynamic. two of the fundamental dynamics causal to fragmentation of essence are death and denial. to put it another way, i'm suggesting that the sub culture noted by rp which includes this camp is far more likely to be populated by more parental essence. this is self evident. that means you are likely more parental. and you. and you. or you wouldn't be here.

is that more than you wanted to know?

the new year. the enegmatic 2012 has arrived at last. will the seals be broken and the mysteries revealed?

you betcha!!

its already happening. i suspect 911 was the opening of the 7th. are these the seals referred to in revelations? yes. however, there is much mis-interpretation, mis-information, and definitly disinformation in that particular version.

is that more than you wanted to consider?

we are in the time of the untangling. the awakening. the opening and healing of the gap. all these extreems we are seeing, experiencing, these are reflective of what has been held in the gap. it is going to be healed despite our resistance to look. to think. to feel. momma is coming home. guilt is moving out. that will put a new twist on freedom none of us could have imagined.

my most heartfelt best wishes for your personal survival to everyone... p

Anonymous said...

sorry murph. meant to include you when i referenced fa and rp... p

Anonymous said...

and sats... you're amazing dude!...p

Anonymous said...

and to borrow fromm the words of kris kristofferson... there ain't no chain as strong as the will to be free... p

rockpicker said...

"Openness is essential for Democracy to really work, for it to genuinely exist. Media is there to insure that takes place. If the media is co-opted into a spin machine for the corporate elite, there is no longer any genuine freedom."

The above is a quote from someone who was taken into custody in February, 1768, in the French countryside, imprisoned, tortured and killed for disseminating forbidden knowledge, instructing people about past lives. This person has a web site that's pretty interesting, and what he or she says is relevant to this current discussion.


rockpicker said...

David Griffen. Here is the website url



Anonymous said...

I recognized that this was Libya right off. But then again, I do read a lot.

Freedom does not mean no responsibility, it means actually the opposite, it means total responsibility.

Freedom also means self-responsibility. It divorces dependency from irresponsibility in other words.

Moreover, freedom accepts risks (any and all risks) which are inherent to true freedom.

And finally, true freedom is anonymous.

The latter is something that hardly anybody seems to understand.

Not only can or should your actions be anonymous (if you truly have freedom, and not a shadow of it), but anonymous freedom means that the mechanisms that have enabled you to be free are also anonymous themselves.

They do not have any ownership (or owners). They do not apply to any country, nation, state, government or entity (all of which are artificial creations and none are anonymous). They are not limited to any specific people. They are not even limited to just people either.

The Bill of Rights is semi-anonymous, but recognized the inherent inalienable rights of (just) people everywhere. It could have gone further.

Anonymous freedom enables the individual in ways in which no legislation can ever do. A truly free society that enables anonymous freedom would honor not itself, or specific individuals (as we do, and as our society does), it would honor the anonymous actions of life and liberty of all beings. If you think about this for a moment, that is what already exists in the natural world -- anonymous freedom. Entities without names or demands being placed upon them, except for the labels we humans have applied in our human-centric views, and the demands (rape) of what we want. But the point being is this anonymous freedom exists, without anything that any human can 'devise' to claim ownership, control, demands and so forth.

Our society esteems (elevates) individual while at the same time creating both competition and envy, all under the phony guise of (just) human freedom, while a truly free society would abandon such notions as this only creates division. We all know where that leads to, and why we are in the state we are in today.

Anonymous freedom would be a biological society that does not restrict the life of any living thing, nor elevate itself or attempt to lord over, or claim ownership, or preeminence, or any such thing.

We have such examples all around us, but are too blind to see it. ~Survival Acres~

murph said...

Survival Acres,

Interesting comment. I read all of your postings at your site and I don't recall you putting out a definition like the one you proposed here.

It appears to me that your "anonymous freedom" is a form of anarchy social organization. Not that I disapprove at all, but wonder how large societies would/could exist under your definition.

As I conceive the meaning of your definition, it would take a pretty much 100% of the participants agreeing on this and in my view, we can't get a consensus on any concept today. Take and break down society into small autonomous groups of around 100 or so, then it would be possible I think.

If your so inclined, fleshing out how this would work at the micro level would be interesting.

I do like the concept.

Anonymous said...


Hi Survival Acres I am sure glad you said that about Libya, it sounds so out of the ordinary that some casual readers might have thought I was bullshitting it.

“Freedom does not mean no responsibility, it means actually the opposite, it means total responsibility.” That is true but what is also true is that if order meant total responsibility then freedom would follow.

I agree with the general thrust of what you are saying but it also seems to me that you are attributing a more rosy picture of the proposed actions of humans towards freedom than nature has worked out for itself. I have seen two animal programmes on the TV and in both of them the same thing happened. One was with a pack of wild wolves and the other was with chimpanzees in a safari park. It is usual for some groups of animals to exist in packs or herds with a strong leader who has a harem of all the females. This ensures future generations are raised from strong stock. This leader has earned his place and must defend it against challengers. As the leader becomes older it is usual for a strong male to take the main chance. In both cases a challenge failed and the contender was banished out of the group. In the case of the wolves the loser was left to wander alone. It tried to tag along behind other groups but was rejected. It sure isn't like the Brits who revere their inglorious losers. Sure the challenger was free to make his bid and the rest of the pack was free to accept the decision of the leader in throwing him out but in these cases neither the actions nor the mechanisms were anonymous.

If I have missed the point of what you are saying then please run it past me again.

Anonymous said...

Great post, Sats.

Freedom? Crap. Obummer and the rest of the fascist fucks in D.C. (District of Criminals) just stomped on any 'freedoms' we had left.

I don't think true freedom can exist especially in large societies. Maybe in a clan perhaps -but wait.... if you look at some clans throughout the world/history, you'd see some highly structured rules/laws limiting everyday freedoms of those in the clan. Case in point, the LDS fudies living in Arizona City. It's like "Invasion of the Body Snatcher" times 10! But in a large society, some people might attain some sense of freedom via anonymity -like checking out of the mainstream and being a member of those who do not participate in what the society deems normal. I have no cell phone, no iPod, iTunes, cable, satellite, and it makes me feel freer. I don't know. I figure the less crap I have, the less crap I have to deal with.

I think most people are scared shitless of freedom. They don't want to take responsibility for their lives and would rather someone else take care of them. It' like they just can't handle living in a world full of uncertainty.

But hey! Maybe soon we won't have to worry about any of this 'freedom' suff because up next: "WAR WITH IRAN" Jeebus- I saw this movie! It was called, "Iraq." Are there any adults around to put an end to this madness?! Apparntly not -hell, Obummer just signed a bill that would make it a criminal offense just to TALK to Iran! Diplomacy is now against the law.

Man, talk about doomed...

Hey, we had a saying in the military, "No matter how bad it is now, things can always get worse."

Later -


rockpicker said...

On freedom and order, the closest man has come to achieving a state of self-governance in which consensual societal needs are protected, while individual rights are maximized, is this American experiment, as designed by the founders, laid out in simple language by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Corrupted as it has become, no attempt at self-governance in the history we are told was as perfectly conceived. If that assessment is wrong, I am not aware of an instance of proof.

Laws, we are told, restricting individual freedom, are necessary to protect society.

But what happens when laws are not enforced, or enforced selectively, to enable one group or class of the governed, to the detriment of all other classes?

What can be expected from a damaged society, when a small contingent of powerful and privileged are allowed to break the country's laws, enriching themselves to the disadvantage of the rest?

What order is there then?

The order of going quietly into that merciless night?

Anonymous said...


Rockpicker, You won't get an argument out of me about the American experiment but what you went on to say is the reason Jefferson said the American people needed to have a revolution every five years or so to prevent the experiment from getting diverted. Even in those days he foresaw the way things might go from the policies of the likes of Adams.

freeacre said...

A friend of ours sent us this "One Hour Meltdown" scenario which is worth a read, I think.
May want to make another trip to Costco...
BTW, now that we have hundreds of pounds of flours, rices, and legumes stored up, I went on the Paleo Diet and actually feel a lot better. What can you not eat any of on the Paleo Diet? Flours, rices, and legumes. Fuck me. Now I have to get massive amounts of herring, salmon, tuna, dried fruit, grass fed meats, and can my own vegetables.

rockpicker said...

In our system, we believe the Judicial Branch checks and balances the other two branches.

Yet the highest court is appointed by the Executive, on conditional approval of the Congress.

How difficult is it to imagine a situation where all three branches are corrupted to a point where little or no checking and balancing takes place, concerning certain powerful interests? Not too, I aver, as such appears the case now, with the SCOTUS ruling that money has no influence over politics.


rockpicker said...

"War is when the government tells you who the bad guy is. Revolution is when you decide that for yourself."


Anonymous said...


What a find that latest piece was Rockpicker. I recognised Brian Gerish right away and although he appears to be a very nice chap, most northerners would refer to him as a bloody southerner. And apart from the Scottish chap at the beginning I knew where all the others came from even though I don't know any of them personally. Once you hear the Liverpool accent when you are not expecting it, it kind of hits you like a bus. Liverpudlians are a happy go lucky lot although they did have a reputation of being Bolshy and striking first and making their demands second. Well, that was in the days before Thatcher at least. The guy on the plain where there was a polythene sheet wafting around in the background was sitting in front of St Georges Hall, built in the grand days of shipping magnates. Apparently it is one huge assembly hall. Nobody knows why it was built or what it is for, it is never used that is for sure. The story goes that the architect turned up to see it after it was finished and said “Why have you built it the wrong way round?” Opposite to it are three buildings built in the same style, the Walker Art Gallery; the Museum and the Central Library. My, that was a swing down memory lane. Getting back to the video clip, the trailer was fine but it was a pity the follow up pieces were not in numbered order.

Freeacre, I got lost in that One Hour Meltdown article. I spent ages following the links, first class.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, that was some good "doom," fa. I think'in that grandpappy might be on to something. If it's a slow crash, TPTB might get caught up in the "doom" -i.e. drawn-n-quartered, hanged, beheaded or death by "bunga-bunga" so a quick posting of their "Out to Lunch" sign or "Out of the Office" email followed by a private jet ride to their own private Idaho would probably be preferred -let the rabble/riff-raff fight over the last can of "gasp" spam.

I sure would like to 'bug-out' but, not sure where to go. Anywhere that's better than here that's a few hours drive (warmer climate, more water, sparcely populated, etc.) is Morman country. Doubt if they'd like an infidel in their 'hood.

So, if a quick doomage hits, I guess I'll be stuck, hunkered-down in Mormon HQ, hoping the locals don't go all "Mountain Meadows Massacre" on my ass.



rockpicker said...

Gotta listen to this.


freeacre said...

lol... Well, in that case, Randy, you might consider a quick conversion. Hunker down and put on a few Romney for President pins. At least your neighbors will have plenty of food stored up, and won't be going for yours.

Anonymous said...

Ha! Fu u neee!

Might have to invest in some Mormon undees, or what we infidels call, "Jesus Jammies." Was actually thinking on voting for the Rethugs this time around. Might as well since my vote doesn't count -but TPTB WILL KNOW who I voted for and maybe, just maybe, leave me alone. Worth a try, I guess.


Anonymous said...

from cell #125 motel 6 just this side of the mexican border, after over a month of camping out my van the Blue Goose laid the egg from hell, the transmission blew sky high and my companion and i and a small chihuahua by the name of Goldie are trapped in what has to be the shittiest motel in the world.
aside that tomorrow will be the day when it all comes to a head, whether the thing is repairable or we sell it for scrap and catch the next plane back to montana.
unless of course my name is on the no fly list and then Goldie flies alone and i move into a homeless shelter for the winter.
fabulous post as usual coming from such a talented and dedicated bunch of misfits if i ever saw such.
my most favorite subject in the world has been hit on and it really has intrigued (thank spirit for spell check, otherwise you would think i was writing in swahili ) and made a mess of much of my life.

Anonymous said...

rules are to me the shittiest thing to ever be conceived unless you are talking about a two year old that likes to play with matches, not necessarily play with them which i am absolutely not opposed but to try and set everything around him on fire, (more then likely a him,girls seem to be interested in other forms of self entertainment) and gratification .

but this is not what i would like to express here, after much soul searching i find that the whole idea and it is an idea of freedom is a total farce and is rigged from the start for failure . if it worked as an idea of which it is, it would of worked as an idea. it ain't! never has never will, because its coming from a place that disregards the fact that people are different, we ain't.

and like what has been said there are as many definitions of freedom as there are definers.this is a really stupid approach, i think.
let me see now, if i were part of someone's storage shed, as in i was a chair and talking to a picture frame about how to get out of the shed what would i say to the picture frame?, we would both like to get out of the shed and see what was outside.
the frame comes up with a solution and says the next time the door is open lets make a run for it, but the chair says you got no legs, but i will carry you out and the picture says ok that would great, but i am quite heavy and i do not know if you could do this all by your self, the chair says not to worry i have an idea, the next time the door is open i will make a run for it and come back and get you later. the picture says how can you do that the door will be closed and locked again.
the chair thinks for a minute and says you know you are right ... good bye.

some get it some don't
but the way of the intellect will never ever figure it out. because its so simple it cannot be explained.
p, the duality you speak of is an illusion and it is the way of the two-leggeds to divide the living shit out of every thing and that is an illusion also because there is one source of which we all are made and the division is the downfall of the two-leggeds and all the misery of this sacred planet,our home, is in ruins because of this very concept.
the programs of which the humans run on i like to see as files in a hard drive, each life experience is a file and these files talk with each other and as the here and now occurs the appropriate file pops up and decides how the here and now should be responded to, this is crap, and totally a waste because it most always fucks up a response which if it stayed in the fucking hard drive where it belongs something else might happen which would be appropriate to the occasion.
i have tried this many times and it works.
not an easy thing to do but it can work.
freedom is just one of those shitty words that live in the storage shed called the hard drive along with every other experience we have ever had and none of those files are adequate because they are dead, and they never worked then and they ain't gonna work now...
if they had they would and they ain't;.
ps thanks for allowing me to hold the stick for such a good run of bullshit but i have fun with it...peace and love...

wv conar which i might be on

rockpicker said...

Hey, bro. Startin' to sound like the Pow Wow Highway storyline. If tshtf, let me know, I'll figure out a way to come pick you up. Hok a hey.

freeacre said...

Count us in, too, Montana. We could at least send you a bus ticket. Sounds like the country has a hold on you for awhile yet. Rats. Keep in touch. I have missed your rants.

Anonymous said...

rp, fa, mf... i'm in... p

Anonymous said...


Hey mf bro the last we heard you were in Arizona heading south so I didn't know what your computer arrangements were or if you could get e mail or if I should write to you in Montana. I guess these transmissions are into the barter system, you give them some oil and grease and they will keep working for you. Unless, like us, old age is the problem and then they just give up. But hey, they sure pick their moment, it didn't even let you get south the border, down Mexico way – now there's a cue for a song if ever there was one. It sure is easy to forget those you depend on sometimes need your help. My, if I keep on this moral high ground I might even catch religion:-) If the bus is a total scrapper, then can't you get into Mexico and use you plane ticket money to pick up another old bus there? You can even take the tour bus over the border to get sorted out, it's just a thought.

Since I didn't know how to get in touch with mf then I am going to put a personal message here, the rest of you can talk amongst yourselves for a minute. Got your chrissy pressy on the 28th which was unexpected and totally blew me away. I told Chris that I was going to iron the T shirt and for her to take a picture of me wearing it which I would send back to you. We did that but then I found that the new computer was exercising its right to freedom and was too snooty to talk to the old camera. Where have we heard that story before? Worked on it Sunday and found a work around. Hey what were those feathers, they didn't come out of any chicken I know, an eagle maybe – perhaps? That superb picture I have to get a frame for then I will put it up. Thumbs up for the other stuff too. Love yo bro.

Ok I am back. Off to the hospital tomorrow for the surgeon to admire his handiwork.

freeacre said...

We just watched this outstanding documentary entitled "Reel Injun." It was done by original people regarding the differing ways that "Injuns" have been portrayed in the history of cinema. Facinating.
One of the things that John Trudel taught me is that people's fascination with Indians now is because it harkens back to when we were all Human Beings.
Human Beings first, then what tribe. All of us spring from aboriginal roots. Celts, Druids, Gauls, Saxons, Huns, Vikings, all sorts of "barbarians" all over the globe.
We all want to be Human Beings again.
I think that has a lot to do with the concept of freedom and its compelling nature.

Anonymous said...


I always thought I was of good Anglo-Saxon stock until I looked my family name up in the Penguin book of surnames and found it was Welsh. So I am probably a Celt or some sort of Brythonic hybrid or some such. Who knows or even cares, although I would prefer not to be Welsh since they have a reputation for praying on their knees and on their neighbours.

Doctor yesterday was delighted with my progress and said I could stop with physio if I wanted to until I said I liked using the fitness machines so he said best to carry on with it then. That's not what what I wanted to tell you though. I got about a mile from home late last night, you can always tell when it is the bus driver's last run and he wants to get off duty. He was revving the balls off the engine when all of a sudden the wheels stopped going round. I will tell you mf's name was mud since I figured he had put a jinx on bus transmissions. We didn't wait for them to bring a replacement bus from the garage and did the last mile on foot. After a long day, I wasn't feeling very human towards my fellow men grrr, grumble, grumble, humph ;-)

Anonymous said...


I always thought I was of good Anglo-Saxon stock until I looked my family name up in the Penguin book of surnames and found it was Welsh. So I am probably a Celt or some sort of Brythonic hybrid or some such. Who knows or even cares, although I would prefer not to be Welsh since they have a reputation for praying on their knees and on their neighbours.

Doctor yesterday was delighted with my progress and said I could stop with physio if I wanted to until I said I liked using the fitness machines so he said best to carry on with it then. That's not what what I wanted to tell you though. I got about a mile from home late last night, you can always tell when it is the bus driver's last run and he wants to get off duty. He was revving the balls off the engine when all of a sudden the wheels stopped going round. I will tell you mf's name was mud since I figured he had put a jinx on bus transmissions. We didn't wait for them to bring a replacement bus from the garage and did the last mile on foot. After a long day, I wasn't feeling very human towards my fellow men grrr, grumble, grumble, humph ;-)

Unknown said...

Hi rockpicker, I sent you an email a while back, did it arrive?

Just wanted to clear a couple of things.

The quote you attributed to me above, is actually a quote from an article by Preston Peet entitled perception management & domestic propaganda:

"Openness is essential for Democracy to really work, for it to genuinely exist. Media is there to insure that takes place. If the media is co-opted into a spin machine for the corporate elite, there is no longer any genuine freedom."

I referenced it on a couple of pages at my site:

I was indeed picked up on 12 Feb. 1768 and subjected to some rather unpleasant things, but it was not by the soldiers of King Lois...

I was picked up and removed from the planet by the group I was a part of at that time. THEY did not like me disseminating the information I was - and they still don't, just so you understand who's operating back behind the scenes.


David Griffin
Upward Vector Publishing