Tuesday, April 27, 2010

The Oxymoron of a Politically Stable State in Belgium

...this is a picture of the tortoise Hot Springs Wizard recently brought to a place of refuge out in the boonies, and free from the human-induced turmoil exemplified by the following post.

Getting back to the "real world," which often seems even stranger than our other-worldly speculations, our friend from Belgium updates us on the dysfunction of the State of Belgium. I thought we had it bad....

by our friend from Belgium

Belgian politics is like an oil and water emulsion which now and again starts to separate out before someone comes along to give it a good stir up. In the same way as a camel is said to be a horse designed by a committee the Belgian political system could only have been designed by such a committee.

First a little bit of history which I will keep simple since I do not know the in depth stuff myself. 150 years ago Belgium did not exist, the land which is now called Belgium was part of The Netherlands or Holland as some called it in earlier times and it bordered on Northern France. French speaking people populated the Ardennes which is the scenic hilly region north of the French border although French influence continued to a lesser extent through Flanders, the flat part, up to the river Schelde. At that time the French speakers were prosperous and elitist but the tables have turned and they are now poor and elitist. Wallonia, the political area of Belgium occupied by French speaking people (or The Ardennes) hangs at the bottom of every European monitoring scale making it an officially depressed area whilst the Dutch speaking part to the north is one of the economic powerhouses of Europe.

In the early 60’s when the Vlaardingen were coming into the ascendency and flexing their muscles, relations between the two groups had deteriorated to the extent that there was civil unrest with attacks and reprisals between opposing factions. There was a solution imposed or reluctantly agreed which was as well thought through as the division of Palestine. This is where the committee really got into action and came up with the best fix which all could agree on but which really suited no one. There was to be a local assembly (parliament) for the Dutch speakers in the north. People who live in defined Vlaanders could vote for a Dutch speaking representative. A similar situation existed in Wallonia for the French speakers. The capital Brussels was officially bilingual, even though 90% of the inhabitants speak French and inhabitants could vote for either a French or Dutch speaking representative. Each group therefore had its own assembly. In addition to this there is an overall umbrella national parliament to coordinate the other three groups. All this for a total population if eleven million people. Now here is where it gets tricky because there are not one but two complicating factors which have been a running sore for fifty years now. Firstly, unlike the USA or the UK, Belgium does not have a first past the post electoral system where the party with the most votes is the one which forms the government. Most countries within Continental Western Europe have a Proportional Representation system whereby the administration is a coalition of parties which can form a majority in the proportion in which citizens voted for them. This is a system designed for mediocrity and shoddy compromises. The party with the highest votes can invite other parties to join it and is the party which generally calls the shots but sometimes the tail can trip up the beast. The trouble with this is that the Prime minister (they call him a “Voorzitter” or Chairman here) and the National Cabinet can and often is made up of people that many of the citizens could not have voted for.

The second and more major problem is that the administrative line which separates Dutch speaking Belgium from French speaking Belgium runs ten to fifteen miles south of the southern limit of (90% French speaking) Brussels so that the Capital is landlocked within the Dutch speaking part. For all these years the French speakers have been demanding an administrative corridor between the capital and their bit. Shared responsibility has been tried where the French speakers ran the local councils directly to the south of Brussels and the Dutch speakers ran the police, fire services and other similar bodies. There are two reasonably sized towns in this area, Halle and Vilvoorde and this is where the crux of the problem lies. Citizens who need access to their representative are fed up, I mean truly fed up trying to deal with an official who refuses to speak with them in their mother tongue. Maybe you have heard the shorthand expression B-H-V (Brussels-Halle-Vilvoorde); this is what it is about. When this system clearly wasn’t working the people from the area in question were accorded the same rights as those in Brussels but it didn’t really eliminate the tensions. The French speakers have agreed to abandon the area to the Dutch speakers but they want their quid pro quo in the form of an enlarged Brussels. This amounts to just moving the problem somewhere else since other parts of Vlanders will become Brussels. In order to bring the problem to a head the legislative branch ordained that there could be no future elections until Halle - Vilvoorde was separated from Brussels, in other words they could no longer choose between Dutch OR French speakers to represent them because this was unfair to other areas of Vlaanders and so some Dutch speaking areas would remain as before whilst some parts of the Dutch area would become totally administered by the French speakers. On Friday last, in a political move, the Open VLD (Vlams Liberal Democrats) walked out of the national assembly leaving it without a majority. There have been frantic efforts by three former Prime Ministers over the weekend to find a solution but the only suitable party, the socialists have sat on their hands and today the national government fell. The difficulty is that the King cannot call for a new election because that is illegal until the B-H-V separation is carried out and this apparently is an insoluble problem. You should also be aware that the Dutch speakers make no territorial claims on the soil of the French speaking people.

Apart from the political considerations above there are also economic and social issues. In order to all get along and be one Belgium together, Vlanders gives Wallonia one billion Euros every month, just to stay afloat. The French speakers take the money and in return give the north that Dick Cheney look where it appears everybody in the room has farted at the same time. Surprisingly the largest French political party by far is the socialists. This reminds me of a very old rhyme, you will know how old it is because the UK decimalised its currency in 1972. Before that there were twelve pennies in a shilling.

What is a Socialist?
One who has yearnings
To share equal profits
From unequal earnings
Be an idler or bungler
Or both, he is willing
To fork out his sixpence
And pocket your shilling.

This perceived altruism is too much for some in the north where a xenophobic Nationalist Party has strong roots, particularly in the Antwerp region. This party used to be known as the Vlaams Bloc with a double meaning in the word bloc. In one sense it can be like the former Russian Bloc or it can mean to stand in the way and prevent something. What they were in favour of denying was unlimited entry into Belgium of people from Africa and Turkey. They take the view that jobs can be outsourced without ever leaving the country. In a court case they were judged to be a racial organisation so they changed their name to the Vlaams Belang which means the importance of coming from northern Belgium. They run poster campaigns in Arabic saying Vlaams jobs for Vlaams people and in a heartbeat they would cut Wallonia loose as a separate state.

There are social problems too. Apart from being the capital city, Brussels is also home to the European Parliament and NATO Headquarters. The strain on living accommodation in a defined area is intense and with predictable results people, mostly French speaking people are moving outside the circle and into Halle – Vilvoorde. The Dutch speakers who have always lived there feel they are being populated out. As an example someone went to the baker to find that the shop had been taken over by French only speakers and the shopper didn’t know how to say “Whole wheat bread” in French. Some local authorities in the B-H-V region encourage people who wish to relocate to sell their houses to Dutch speaking families. This recently resulted in a French speaking woman who split up from her husband being refused a house near her children’s school even though she was a Belgian citizen. This resulted in accusations of apartheid being thrown around. In Vlaams schools, pupils from age ten are required to learn French. In Wallonia, pupils can choose between an hour a week English or an hour a week Dutch. Most figure that English will be the most useful to them so they never learn Dutch. When French and Dutch speakers meet they therefore default into French to the chagrin of the northerners. Sometimes they will agree to speak in English but this perceived French laziness gives them the upper hand.

This piece gives you some background to what is going on here but de facto Belgium has no government and it is illegal to hold elections until an insoluble problem is sorted out. These are interesting times – watch and wait.


freeacre said...

I find this conundrum in Belgium fascinating. Here you've got a mere 7 million people who can't reach consensus on the will of the people or a national identity due to speaking different languages. It's like the Tower of Babel story. In the U.S. we have assimilated many cultures because they all (until recently) had the value that becoming an American was a priority, and they were determined to learn the language and fit in. The greater culture was amused by Italian or Swedish accents, but it was not a huge problem, and the kids assimilated with no problem. But, now, with the advent of militant speakers of Spanish, and encouraging folks to be bi-lingual, we seem to be creating entrenched resentment. Language appears to me to be a fundamental aspect of identity and bonding between people... unless we just all shut up and feed each other or exchange backrubs. lol
Man, it appears that Belgium may never get a functional government going. Maybe that's a good thing. Be interesting to see an alternative.
Thank you so much, Belgium, for sending in this post. I've got something in mind that I will post soon, but this answers questions that have been raised about what in the hell is going on in Belgium.

mrs p said...

Fascinating and hairy. Wow thank you for the brief history and language lesson. It was indeed fascinating and involved. And I thought we had trouble. FA's idea of shutting up and just "talking back rub" sounds good to me. Seriously though...you must keep us posted on this. It's no time to be without leadership.
Meanwhile, according to BP (British Petroleum) there's a 1000 barrels a day spewing into the Gulf of Mexico at the site of the downed & drowned oil rig. The sea life there is screwed. mrsp

mrs p said...

P.S. That looks like a Russian tortoise. Hey FA, have you seen this? Shocking!


Are they going to stop us from growing our own food???? WTF?
mrs p

baz recon said...

ah, with apologies to me olde mate FB, while I was typin', sleeping, drinking coffee ... this is probably related more to previous post/comment (I'm a careful methodical thinker!), haha—yeah—truly—what?—don't believe me—another hah, aargh enough disclaimer ... on with the show ;—> ah, Part 2 ?

Yes——like sheep, all have been led astray. Like small childen trusting surrogate parents who did not conceive us—but deceive us. Biologically conceived to-be technologically deceived. And the people bowed and prayed to the neon god they made.

As for the demise of the middle-class, never much cared for them anyways. Only promotes classism (caste system). Next stop Nazism. Perhaps a level playing field might enable improved moralistic / ethical understanding ? They're the real cause of the world's problems, not the elites ... when you think it through ...

Why oppose some new-fangled sewerage treatment plant in your backyard, when it's designed to improve your plop in life? Kinda like a gold-mine.

Conspiracy of denial—another name for the middle-class. Elite says ; do like this. MC obeys, hoping to catch some crumbs falling from his master's table, only to succeed in empowering even further, that s/he allegedly despises—hah. Widening the gulf even w i d e r. MC doesn't quite perceive (inculcation since inception) the considerable contribution s/he + children have bestowed upon their ambivalently hated Lords ... gods, unwittingly or without knowledge, it would seem ! Thereby bringing about their own destruction ... along with everybody elses. So much for private edn—dumb fucks ... Those fated to drown, will drown——No fate but what we make.

Destroy the middle-class, and you'll destroy the elites—yeah, I'm an anarchist, and have no intention of preserving bau. ‘New can't come until old goes.’—old chinese saying. ‘A fool repeats his folly, as a dog returns to its vomit.’—Solomon. We should live as if we have inherited the earth from our children's children ... for in truth, we have.
Suffer not the children to come ...

wv: mialing — missing in action somewhere in ... on the phone.

mrs p said...

Our response (comment) to the NY Times Article about Scott Brown opposing the just approved Wind Farm:

"Finally! Bravo...a few decades late but at least it's a start. Get over the anal appearance thing already! When the lights go out completely, which most definately isn't that far off! ...there might be tourism again! Scott Brown, the Opposer, appears so hoakey, reminding us of the typical backward-thinking Republican character portrayed in the film, "Jaws". It has to be better than drooling over every drop of oil off our coastlines so much that we're willing to die for it. Can you smell the spill yet over there?"

Anonymous said...

From Belgium

Back to the Belgian FUBAR, the king has overridden the legislative branch and just announced there will be elections on June 13 but in typical Albert style, that date could change. What a king, go to him with a problem and he says “Go away and sort it out”, put him on the spot and he wavers in French of course or broken Dutch. That is very nearly a bad joke since he is of German descent. Belgium is one of the very few countries in the world where voting is a legal requirement so how can people plan their lives with a response like that. The interesting question is what people will be asked to vote on.

Btw, because I am a comer in with a right to be here, I have the choice of joining in the circus or not but once they have got you they have you for life. So far I have resisted being culpable in their silly games.

Hotspringswizard said...

I had seen over at the FTW site a few days ago an article about the Belgiam Government collapse. Thanks for taking the time to give us the details Belgium of what is going on. What a convoluted mess that you describe.

Mrs P the turtle in the photo is a Desert Tortoise which are found in the US southwestern deserts, like around our home ( where I found this one ). These turtles are fairly uncommon to happen upon, and their numbers have diminished in recent decades for various reasons, most of it related to people.

Man what a place to have a giganitic oil spill, in the big bowl that is the Gulf Of Mexico! Doesn't sound like they are going to get it capped any time soon. Drill Baby Drill! At 5000+ feet below the surface, I'd bet this presents a huge problem that they ( the oil drillers ) never " really " planned for. Lots of money available to get the oil flowing, and not so much for what to do when it all goes terribly wrong. Don't want to cut into the profit too much. There saying today that the leak could be over 100,000 gallons a day. Its looking like this disaster is only getting started. A real potential for a huge mess with this one.

rockpicker said...


How is it that the two 'break-away' areas got together in the first place? Maybe Belgium should consider divesting. Wallonia could cede into France and Vlaanders could join the Netherlands. At least the language problems would be solved.

Hotspringswizard said...

Here some thoughts from Kamilov worth considering:



Anonymous said...

From Belgium

Rp, I think what happened is that the French thought they had more influence in what became Belgium than did the Dutch. They made a putsch and finished up with what they could take and the Dutch finished up with what they could defend. Here is a little anomaly of sorts. Have a look at this map of the Netherlands


There looks nothing amiss at first but see the part underneath where it says Middelburg on the south bank of the Zuid (south) Schelde. The only way you can get to it from the rest of the Netherlands is over the Antwerp Ring. After taking what they could and calling it Belgium there was still a greater number of Dutch speakers in Vlanders than French. I think the ghetto mentality set in where groups gravitate to the common language. Ceding East / West with each part joining its common language country is not a bad idea but I doubt it will happen. Even though North Belgium and the Netherlands have a common language there are very different social attitudes. For instance soft drugs are freely available anywhere in Netherlands; in Belgium like most other places they are available under the counter. Similar with sex shops, prostitution and porn. Netherlands is one of the very few places in the world where euthanasia is legal. Netherlands has a more open attitude to public wants. They take the view that the public are grown up and if they want it then let them have it. Sometimes things are only desirable because they are illicit, if you make them open then they will regulate themselves.

I saw the oil slick in the Gulf, on the news this evening and that’s pretty awful.
Time to send for Red Adair I think, (say is he still dancin’ with Ginger Rogers?) oh dear.

rockpicker said...

Finally. I love it.



It occurred to me, after I posted, that deciding who would get custody of the giant super computers in the Hague might be an insurmountable problem. Sounds a bit like the old Bible story of the Tower of Babble.

Anonymous said...

Rockpicker thanks for the link on NPR. Reading that makes one sick to their stomach. It's absolutely horrific how U.S. backs this in so many ways and means, makes it down right embarrassing to be an American! mrs p

freeacre said...

That oil spill really takes the cake, doesn't it? Well, now that it's really going to be in our face, we'll start to "get it." I doubt they'll be chanting "drill, Baby, drill!" at the next Republican convention. What a disaster. Gaia's gonna be pissed.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium

The question must be asked if NPR is a public service. Here are some figures albeit ten years old but it is the best I could come up with.


Government funding was 0.2% whereas corporate funding was 62.2%. I tried to find who are the people behind NPR and was directed to this page by the media ombudsman. Is corporatism altruistic or is there a quid pro quo somewhere along the line.

Turning from public to corporate media influences in the USA, here is a list of who owns what.

Five Media Giants dominate:
VIACOM : holdings include CBS and UPN networks, over 35 TV stations, MTV, Showtime, Nickelodeon, BET, Paramount Pictures, Blockbuster Video, over 176 radio stations, Simon & Shuster and vast Billboard holdings : MURRAY REDSTONE
TIMEWARNER : holdings include: Warner Bros, AOL, CNN, HBO, Time Warner Cable, Turner (TN TBS), Cartoon Network, New Line Cinema, Castle Rock Entertainment, Atlantic Recordings, Elektra/Sire, Rhino, Time-Life Books, DC Comics, Fortune, Sports Illustrated, People and Netscape Communications : GERALD LEVIN
WALT DISNEY : holdings include : ABC. Disney Channel, ESPN, A&E History Channel. Buena Vista, Touchstone Pictures, 10 TV stations, 60+ radio stations, ESPN Radio, Miramax Films, Hyperion Books, & theme parks. MICHAEL EISNER
VIVENDI UNIVERSAL holdings include Universal Pictures, Canal+. USA Networks (43%). Cineplex Odeon Theatres (42%). MCA Records, PolyGram Records, Vivendi Telecom and 26.8 million shares TimeWarner stock : EDGAR BRONFMAN
NEWS CORP holdings include : Fox Network, DirecTV, 34 TV stations, National Geographic Channel, FX, 20th Century Fox, the New York Post, Harper Collins Publishers, Regan Books and sports teams. RUPERT MURDOCH whose goal is to own multiple forms of programming - news, sports, films and children's shows - and beam them via satellite or TV stations to homes in the United States, Europe, Asia and South America.
GENERAL ELECTRIC : holdings include : NBC, Telemundo, Universal Pictures, Universal Parks and Resorts, CNBC, Bravo, MSNBC (and also vast holdings in numerous other business sectors) : DENNIS DAMMERMAN
Washington Post : K.M. GRAHAM
Wall Street Journal : PETER KHAN
New York Daily News : M. ZUCHERMAN
The names of Jewish people are shown in capitals.

Rp, therein lies the rub.

Anonymous said...

Sounds a bit like the old Bible story of the Tower of Babble.

it sounds alot like the story!

keep pealing the onion to its core and sooner or later all wars become religous wars. and there's no doubt who's winning. which, when you stop and think about it, is totally contrary to the claim by the jews that they are the most persecuted, displaced peoples on the planet. they and those in cahoots with them own and control damn near everything in one way or another. that proclamation is the biggest flim-flam of all time. its held in place by manipulating guilt to get twisted needs met. needs that are way past the balance point and into the land of narcissism. guilt is what so-called anti-semitism is all about. so-called political correctness is another reflection of the same damn thing. what their power mongers haven't realized yet is that this is a big fat lesson in karma and they're perping on everyone including their own people.

I doubt they'll be chanting "drill, Baby, drill!" at the next Republican convention.

wanna make a friendly bet on that FA? it may not be there in those words but it'll be there just the same. here's what you're up against... gimme whats mine and keep me safe and when it comes right down to it i really don't give a damn what you (meaning those in the power positions) have to do to do it cuz if ya wanna know the truth i'm skert shitless not to mention powerless to do anything about it! and while you're at it kick some ass for me!! the jews aren't the only peoples way past the balance point and into the land of narcissism. the balance point of power is a place where the individual has personal power to get all their needs met without over-powering another. part of the prob is we all hold judgements in one form or another against that potential.

B... your work shines as usual. mucho appreciated... p

wv... sinesa. sin! now there's a guilt reflection for ya!

Hotspringswizard said...

In my previous post I wrote, " I'd bet this presents a huge problem that they ( the oil drillers ) never " really " planned for. "


BP didn't plan for major oil spill

.....BP suggested it was unlikely, or virtually impossible, for an accident to occur that would lead to a giant crude oil spill and serious damage to beaches, fish and mammals......

And the US Oil Industry lobbied successfully not to have additional back up shut off devices for these underwater wellheads, devices that most of the rest of the worlds oil rigs regularly use. Profits, profits, profits! Saftey? Don't bother us with that, we are to busy counting our all time record profits!

BP clearly won't be paying for the astronomical impacts of this horrible event. Its reported that even in the case of the Exxon Valedez spill, that fines lobbied against Exxon are to this day still tied up in court litigation.

All of the efforts being made to mitigate the damage are ridiculously lame in regard to the monsterously sized impacts that will ensue. Floating booms, burning some oil, underwater dispersents, etc are all just pissin in the wind. Still no realistic reason given why this oil rig blew up in the first place ( sabotage perhaps?), but it is interesting timing occuring just weeks after Obama pushes for more off shore oil drilling.

rockpicker said...


Cryptogon has a story today about how Haliburton just acquired Boots and Coots, a firm specializing in oil fire suppression, on April 9, 2010.

As Kevin says, pretty good timing, eh?

Hotspringswizard said...

More thoughts on just how serious this gulf oil leak could be. Read the comment by sunrnr which cites some considerations from an " engineer of considerable experience ":


......I'm engineer with 25 years of experience. I've worked on some big projects with big machines. Maybe that's why this mess is so clear to me.....

The commentary goes on to discuss how this oil field is under 5000+ feet of ocean water, and then another 30,000 feet further down into the earth from that. This engineer feels that this ultra deep well has hit a pocket of oil under such high pressure that none of the technology man has available to it can cap it. It is suggested that the only thing that could feasibly plug this oil spewing hole is a nuclear detonation.

I think of this leak as akin to a hole in a dam. The dam is the well cap in this case. When dams fail because a leak continues to grow eventually undermining the viablility of the dam, the structure ( dam or oil well cap ) eventually is either destroyed and/or bypassed by the leak.

Now that they have tapped this " leak/oil hole " into the highly pressurize pool of oil below, the cap they will try to close or seal may very soon ( if not already )be circumvented by the high pressure oil creating fissures around it. Seems to me the flow level could even increase as the process unfolds as this high pressure oil flows uncontrollably. The oil could then be coming out in numerous places around the cap creating a hole of such size that it can't be dealt with.

Its one thing ( very complex and difficult even so ) to place these rigs and get these wells up and running without any major problems under the very controlled conditions when they are placed.

Now it appears the sunk rigging is on top of the well cap, with a high pressure oil well spewing massive amounts of oil into the vicinity of this wreckage. Given this does anybody really expect they will be able to get a handle on this leak?

I personally have my doubts that even a bomb, nuclear or otherwise could close it as the high pressure oil would eventually work its way through the unconsolidated material broken up by the detonation. And then there is the very real considerations of just what would be the repercussions caused by large detonation on the sea floor, what could be the drastic unforseen consequences it could produce itself.

This disaster just brings to my mind all of the other varied ways humanity is tinkering with earth's systems ( genetics, geo-engineering, pouring mass polution into the biosphere, etc ) all the while telling us that everything is under control and there is nothing to worry about. Multiple pandoras boxes are being opened up and catastrophes like whats happening with this oil disaster will be the ongoing result of humans messing with systems they truly don't understand the complexity of.

rockpicker said...

...All I have is a voice
To undo the folded lie,
The romantic lie in the brain
Of the sensual man-in-the-street
And the lie of Authority
Whose buildings grope the sky:
There is no such thing as the State
And no one exists alone;
Hunger allows no choice
To the citizen or the police;
We must love one another or die.

Defenceless under the night
Our world in stupor lies;
Yet, dotted everywhere,
Ironic points of light
Flash out wherever the Just
Exchange their messages;
May I, composed like them
Of Eros and of dust,
Beleaguered by the same
Negation and despair,
Show an affirming flame.

-- W. H. Auden
from September 1, 1939

Anonymous said...

RP... stories i've been hearing all along say there were a number of fail safes installed behind the shear ram at the well head all of which failed. the bloomberg article calls that shear ram "the last resort" safety device implying the device is the point of no return. my guess is those various fail safes are designed to trigger the shear and, combined, cover the entire universe of probable cause. or at least all know probable causes.

whats interesting about the crypt article is that not only does B&C specialize in putting out well head fires, it appears they also specialize in providing preventer equipment and tech services... "The company’s pressure control services are designed to reduce the number and severity of critical events such as oil and gas well fires, blowouts or other incidences due to loss of control at the well."

the bloomberg article notes cameron international provided the blowout preventer. both cameron and B&C are located in houston. all this begs the question: did B&C, now halliburton, provide services to cameron for the mocondo well?

as an aside i'll give 10 to 1 some lawyer made sure the word "reduce" was used in that description rather than "prevent" even though the devices are known as preventers.

what the crypt article didn't say thickens the plot even further. that is, halliburton was the on-site contractor responsible for cememting the well. apparently suit has already been filed in fed court against H by the widow of one of the on-rig workers...

"The suit claims that the company "prior to the explosion, was engaged in cementing operations of the well and well cap and, upon information and belief, improperly and negligently performed these duties, which was a cause of the explosion."

20 hours later the well blew. it took less than a week for natalie to file the suit. what information does she have? what did shane tell natalie to justify the belief upon which the suit is filed? ... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/30/halliburton-may-be-culpri_n_558481.html

note too that the cememting in question was the final step in the "production string". accoerding to the H stmt quoted in HUFF BP's longer term plan was to cap the well...

"At the time of the incident, well operations had not yet reached the point requiring the placement of the final cement plug which would enable the planned temporary abandonment of the well, consistent with normal oilfield practice."

temporary abandonment? consistent with normal oilfield practice? you betcha. thats the kind of stuff that causes disenters to laugh at the peak-oilers... p

Anonymous said...

so far the best laid plans of mice 'n men to mitigate the oil leak call for drilling a secondary well that will hit and then pierce the casing. counting the 5000' of water before the bit ever hits the sea floor the bull's eye is over 5 miles distant. here's a graphic dipiction of the plan which is already in operation from what i've heard... http://www.nola.com/news/gulf-oil-spill/index.ssf/2010/04/whats_going_on_beneath_the_sea.html

note the bit pierces the resevoir a good distance from the failed well. given speculation on the part of experienced rig folx weighing in that there may well be pressures way beyond what current preventer tech can handle could we soon have 2 leaks?

B... apologies for the diversion from your excellent post but this baby is a BFD and highly likely will excalate to global impact. especially if mamma blows a hurricane in their laps down there and pushes the massive slick west. LA and TEX are the main ports of call for foreign oil. we can already wright off the fishing insustry from LA and likely MISS, ALA, and FLA. for how long? nobody knows. but this is shaping up to be a direct bot hit which refers to an event involving the oceans resulting in ships unable to dock and connects to diaspora moving northward. the interpretations had been the event was rising waters and the movement north to be into canada. if ships can't go out they can't come back. and movement north could well be away fromm the gulf coast... p

freeacre said...

Just to add to the anxiety on this, I am wondering if the increased sun/magnetosphere energy heating up the magnetic core of the earth could be adding to the intensity of the pressure on the deep oil....

and, yeah, I'd call this a direct hit by the web bots as well. Trying to sign up for Ure's Peoplenomics.

Anonymous said...


No probs p I am not sensitive about it. carry on the conversation. What a FUBAR but it affects everyone its not one where you can sit back and and take pleasure in the misfortunes of those who should know better.

rockpicker said...

Those with eyes to see and ears to hear sit with mouths agape, while attempting to suppress images of possible chaos resulting from unfolding nightmare reality.

Meanwhile, inside the Beltway, somewhat reminiscent of the first minutes following the Titanic's initial shudders, the President and the Press debauch themselves with fine food, heavy drink and amusing asides.

I can see them now, in their suits and pretty dresses, reaching over the rail to scrape ice into their glasses.


Anonymous said...

FA... i think thats a damn good question.

FYI... the bot forum grapevine suggests not much info on peoplennomics beyond what's on US... p

freeacre said...

Thank you, Guys, for the added research on the oil spill. This issue has the potential of a real game changer - from a slow collapse to a fast one. Hideous calamity for the birds, fish, reptiles, and countless aquatic creatures, as well as the ocean dependent humans over a vast area. And, if the core is heating up, who knows how many other places could blow? It does feel like the Titanic - and we are all on it.
And, Belgium, looks like your countrymen just put the nix on the burka. That ought to get interesting...
Also, how are you doing, P and ras with the flooding and storms? Everybody OK? I'm lighting a candle and asking Universe to watch over us all.
Watched a rather excruciating movie (great timing), called "Lovely Bones." It dealt with sudden unfair death and eventual acceptance. Very moving and thought provoking. Interesting how movies seem to telegraph cultural memes ...
wv: viedder. Sounds Dutch.

Hotspringswizard said...

Freeacre, we watched that movie Lovely Bones last weekend. I wasn't expecting that ending and thought they would stop the perv from dumping the safe in the sink hole, but he got his karmic payback anyway! The old icicle in the head, works every time :-)

I saw that the Belgian " goverment " had banned the Burqa. I thought there was no Belgian government right now?

P I was thinking the same thing about that new well they are working on, regarding the exceedingly high pressure blowing it out too and then you would have two disasterous leaks!

They have been saying that the point of this well would be to releive pressure on the current leaking well head, but if there is a humongous pool of oil down there under such high pressure, just sticking another straw into it will not lower ( in my opinion ) the pressure on the adjacent leaking well. These well holes I think are something like ten inches in diameter or smaller. Realistically how much pressure could be releived from one extra little hole into a giant reserve of high pressure oil?

On another subject, this bomb incident in New York to my mind is taking the shape of the perfect blown up distraction ( who really set it up? ) which is literally overwhelming the mainstream newstainment.

My brother just called me tonight bringing my attention to the fact that Faux News was doing a two hour special solely on this subject. Its Orwellian the extent to which the MSN is pumping up this idiotic story into some kind of drastic terror event.

The repercussions of the gulf oil leak looks like it will be huge and devestating to so many people on the gulf coast, a real life gigantic tragedy, multiple economic tiers drastically affected, and yet the MSN is instead all over a story about a vehicle with a couple of propane bottles, some clocks and some non-explosive ferterlizer in it? On the scroll below in this Faux News special was the headline that Obama has flown over the gulf and said he thought this spill was perhaps not as bad as everyone thought it was. Nothing to worry about folks, you can go home now!

It all has the flavor of a big diversion to get the publics mind off of this unfolding oil spill disaster. The mainstream news media has literally devolved into pure infotainment BS ( and I know I'm preaching to the choir ), talking heads schilling the corporation talking points of the day, steering the minds of the masses and their perceptions of reality which ever way the PTB want it to go.

Thank goodness for the internet, while we have it at least.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium

Hey, you guys seem to know more of what is going down here than I do. I don’t know who is running the show at the moment. That burka thing never hit the MSM and to be honest, I never see them on the streets although I do hear a lot more Arabic on the bus than French. The whole thing seems like a bit of stick prodding to me.

The car bomb thing sounds like a variation on Albania declaring war on the US. Surprising how different it all seems when it happens on your own soil, it has now become a world event yet the Northern Irish lived with these things as a weekly happening for over thirty years.

Another crisis that has everybody in a tizzy and which probably never left our shores is that some guy in his early 30’s has risked the fires of hell and eternal damnation by telling that the Bishop of Bruge buggered his body for many years and now the Bishop has jumped before he was pushed. Sometimes you just don’t know which are the right ones to sacrifice, sigh. This will do the Jewish cause no harm at all.

Anonymous said...

Everybody OK?

thx for asking FA. sometimes the clouds bring rain. other times, sadness of a personal nature. we're well south of the big stuff here. but in nashville where several good buds reside? just got word one of them's grandfather and his wife (not his bio GM) drowned yesterday trying to escape. he'd been trying to reach him for several hours when he heard on TV a couple had drowned but no names released pending notification. so he called the hospital. what a way to find out. sad!

with 14" falling in 2 days on the music capital and temporary home of thousands of singer/song writers struggling to make the big time no further explanation is necessary for this 5/2 blog entry... http://alyssainnashville.blogspot.com/

... p

rockpicker said...

It's cold and windy up here in southwestern Montana. My hopes for an early, commercial spinach crop have been 'stunted,' shall we say.

Just opened this from George Ure. Better take a look.


Anonymous said...

re: George's 2nd bit on the peoplenomics page -- the oil drum blog has labeled it bogus because one of their contributors is an oil drilling engineer and said the guy didn't have his facts right.

I don't know how much difference that makes -- it's catastrophic anyway.

And Belgium, thanks for the column. I'd been hoping you'd explain it for us.


rockpicker said...

from Steve Quayle


"Heads Up: Email from Moscow Meeting Source Warns of Coming Martial Law: I wish there was something better to put on display this morning. I wish the economy was recovering. I wish none of the things happening in the United States were real and I certainly do not wish to see that society spirals out of control and collapses. However the truth of our matter indicates otherwise when 'economic recovery' at it's current rate is what never was and never will be. Unfortunately it does NOT STOP THERE. more

Heads Up: Email from Moscow Meeting Source Warns of Coming Martial Law: I wish there was something better to put on display this morning. I wish the economy was recovering. I wish none of the things happening in the United States were real and I certainly do not wish to see that society spirals out of control and collapses. However the truth of our matter indicates otherwise when 'economic recovery' at it's current rate is what never was and never will be. Unfortunately it does NOT STOP THERE. more..."

(There was a second oil rig collapse in the Gulf?)

Anonymous said...

From Belgium

No problems Caroline, it's a pleasure.

Anonymous said...

the oil drum blog has labeled it bogus

i'm no engineer but i do too. this thing is all over the net-o-sphere. in ure's version of it what we have here is someone he introduces as "A reader who is an engineer of considerable experience ..." sending him a letter from another self-proclaimed engineer. maybe they are one and same? at any rate what george's reader didn't say (or geroge didn't print) is this...

"Last night we received the following text in an email, author not identified. I passed it by Paul Noel, who is an expert in the field. His response follows thereafter. In calculating the gallons required to kill the oceans, remember that oil goes to the surface, where life is concentrated."

who's we? pure energy systems network, inc. they appear to be the source of origin and damn near everybody subsequently sending this on omits that fact including ure and his 'engineer of considerable experience'. didn't send along noel's response either. nor the link to the source from which it came. PES claims noel as an "advisor". his analysis and comments are worth a read which is more than i can say for the self-proclaimed engineer in question... http://pesn.com/2010/05/02/9501643_Mother_of_all_gushers_could_kill_Earths_oceans/

and the further along we go here the more i question ure's motives with stuff like this. for a smart guy he sure can do some dumb-ass things!

i don't know what the original estimates were. i've been hearing 5K barrels for days now. 5K barrels is exactly 210 gallons. that the email starts out making an issue of this by a guy who then writes "i'm engineer... " makes him immediatly suspect in my view. contrast that email with noel's. truth is, how the hell can anybody know what the spill rate is? best they can do is make an educated guess... p

Anonymous said...

edit... 5K barrels is exactly 210 THOUSAND gallons... p

Hotspringswizard said...

Its true that any figures attributed to this oil well blow out need to be considered as only possible scenarios for what is actually occuring down there 5,000+ feet under the ocean. One thing is the Oii Industry have consistently underestimated the spill amounts in various oil spill events that occur around the world.

With that said my brother called me today with some info he got from an article which said that the pressure at this well was around 70,000 PSI ( pounds pressure per square inch ), and the article said if the well cap is circumvented and the well runs complete free it has the potential to produce up in the area of 200,000 barrels a day for up to 10 to 15 years if its not stopped.

Clearly there are all sorts of figures one can find in all the articles and on the news, but aside from just how valid this or that set of figures are, this blow out is shaping up to be a gigantic ecological disaster. Now there is talk of the oil eventually making it up the east coast in time. No one really knows if or when they may get this thing capped.

And Chriss Matthews on MSNBC makes the great point this evening that the Big Oil is all about saying its our oil when their making all time record profits from their operations, but when it blows up in their face " their oil " suddenly becomes " our oil " and " our problem " to clean up.

BP is already working diligently to avoid blame, with its official ( Tony Hayward ) saying it wasn't our people doing the cementing of the well hole when it blew so its not their responsibility. Now BP lawyers are out there trying to get affected people in the area to sign waivers of prosecution for $5,000 bucks.

You all know who ( like with everything else ) will be stuck with the bill of dealing with this world class natural disaster. And where is the money for that going to come from as the country and the world economies continue to melt down?

Hotspringswizard said...

Opps, I meant a worldclass manmade disaster.

rockpicker said...

Like the Polish plane wreck and 9/11, I seriously doubt we'll be getting any straight answers to difficult questions from the 'guys in charge,' at least for a while. They won't be volunteering information; a sudden rush of transparency would be out of character, and could be seen as a sign of weakness, or even panic.

The fact remains that the rig is now lying in a heap, in 5,000 ft. of murky water, and on top of the hemorrhage. THAT'S A BIG FUCKING PROBLEM, for all of us.

mrs p said...

I think LOTOC had something about the wellhead being lost and that the USGS said that "would be an unprecidented event". Sounds dire if that happens. Another guy, engineer of 25 years claimed the drilling was around 30,000 feet into the earth's crust (in 5,000 ft deep water)-- that sounds like we're just messing with the earth to the edge of our ability. He said the pressure behind this thing was beyond the maximum effort of human science to contain it. And that nothing short of a nuclear bomb could fix it. I hope he's wrong. Meanwhile I abhore the talking points that (probably FOX new entertainment) put out there that Crude isn't that toxic as if there's a bunch of molassas out there. Whoopeee. Idiots. Just wait til that stuff outgasses onto land. Breathing that can't be good.

mrs p said...

We thought the Excorsist was in our bedroom this a.m. The bed was waffeling. I guess I was having a nightmare in conjunction with a 4.6 in Baja that also rolled through here at 4:26 a.m. Got my attention! Wouldn't be at all susprised if we had a really big one before summer is over. Meanwhile small ones are welcome I guess.

Hotspringswizard said...

Mrs P the fumes from large spills do make people sick. I was watching a program yesterday in which a woman who was intimately involved in the Exxon Valdez oil spill, and who lived in one of the communities affected by it spoke of all the people who developed airway problems and various sickness due to the breathing of all the toxic fumes from that spill.

And today, with what will likely be the most humongous ecological disaster in the history of the US, you sure wouldn't know it watching what the MSM is talking about. They are getting all the mileage they can out of the idiotic bomb story, all for the purpose of burying the monumental tragedy that is unfolding in the gulf of Mexico, and to the communities and peoples that depend on it for their livelihoods. Also of course we know these " terrorist incident " stories are used to keep the masses afraid, very afraid and dependent on the protection of the benevolent elites.

Because of some laws put in place in the 90,s BP is supposedly only on the hook for a mere 75 million in damage claims which is just chump change for mega corporations these days. I serriously doubt even that figure will ever be paid by BP.

Then there's the cobbled together, makeshift big box BP is planning on lowering over the largest leak. I'm reading info that says it may realistically take them a month to even getting to the point of placing that thing. Its like these guys are just grasping at straws, saying oh my god, what do we do now, maybe just lower a big box down on the oil volcano. Yeah there, its all better now!

I personally can't see how that idea will work, given the amount of high pressure oil spewing out and the consequent huge volumes of oil involved. At least for BP it makes the public " think " something is being done.

All of this is more signs of just how out of control everything has become. And the sad truth is you can't stop any of the large dynamic unfolding realities from proceeding on their dire courses. Just batten down the hatches, get as sustainable as you can, and try as best yo uou can to avoid the steamrollers of various dire events taking place.

rockpicker said...

Have you listened to Nassim Haramein describe the dynamics of spinning spheres, and how energy seems to manifest at predictable points on the surfaces of spinning spheres?


An inverted tetrahedron whose pinnacle is located at the south pole will have its other points touching the surface of the earth at 19.47 degrees north latitude. As is mentioned in the film clip, this is the latitude on which we find Hawaii and the city of Teotihuacan. The red spot of Jupitor, as well as many sun spots appear at this same latitude, either above or below their relative equators.

Look how close the Deepwater Horizon is to that line.

rockpicker said...

another question. What's the temperature of that oil being blasted up from 30,0000 ft. below the seabed?

Miners in Butte said temperatures in the shafts at the 4,000' level were routinely near 145 degrees F. They would often pour sweat out of their boots on breaks.

wv= infili

Anonymous said...

From Belgium

Rp, I seem to remember in my youth that professor Jacob Bronowski did an experiment on TV where took a clear plastic sphere of about two feet diameter filled with liquid and with a spindle through the middle and spun it very fast probably about 20k rpm. And as it got up to speed turbulence appeared in the same place as Jupiter’s red spot. The really strange thing was that it didn’t spin around with the casing but remained in the same position relative to the camera. He said it was a property of spinning fluid dynamics and as he reduced the speed the turbulence went away. Since Jupiter has a fluid composition that was the reason. I remember being impressed but wondered why the Sun didn’t do the same thing. Maybe there is size / speed relationship, can’t really say myself, it is just something I remember from long ago. I tried to look up a reference to the experiment but drew a blank.

rockpicker said...

Hey, six Bank of America properties in Albuquerque hit by an organized resistance. Mark of the Beast graffiti. Cool.

John May Lives.

Hotspringswizard said...

That " relief " well BP is suggesting as a possible solution to the Deepwater Horizen well leak involves drilling another well hole that they hope will intesect with the leaking well hole at some depth below the surface of the ocean floor.

I read info yesterday that said the leaking well hole is 7 inches in diameter. Then they would pump in material that they hope would seal of the leaking well hole. One official said it would take 3-6 months to even complete that attempt. The whole thing sounds like a real longshot at best, trying to hit a 7 inch well hole, 5000+ feet below the ocean, then maybe thousands of feet below that even.

Today info from Free Speech TV said that BP had a permit to drill 18,000 feet below the ocean floor at the Deepwater Horizen well site and that they actually drilled down 25,000 feet.

P spoke of the oil company capping the well hole, and that Peak Oil deniers would find this amusing, I guess somehow implying that Big Oil has plenty of oil out there and is just capping off supply capabilities all over the place and that therefore Peak Oil is bogus.

I think what they are referring to as " capping " would be the process they were involved with in creating the fixed solid well cap necesary to secure the well head at the ocean floor before pumping operations could ensue, and not closing the well hole itself for some later usage.

We are creating bogus wars for oil in the middle east. Big oil is trying to find reserves at enormous expense and difficulty like the example of this Deepwater Horizen well because reserves on land are going into depletion in most of the world's large reserve areas. We are getting the largest portion of our national oil exports from Canada, where Tar Sands are turned into oil, and this involves great expense, enviromental destruction, and resource expenditures to process these goey tar sands.

These things are not occuring because the US has massive supplies of hidden oil supplies in capped off wells. These things are occuring because the US reached its own peak of national production in 1971 and must import almost 70% of the oil it now needs to keep the American Way Of Life going. The US not that many decades ago used to supply all its own oil, and was the world's biggest exporter of oil.

We didn't become " great friends " with Saudi Arabia after the US supply peaked in 1971 because we just figured we would keep our supplies hidden, and use the rest of the world's oil up first.

The opening salvo of what Peak Oil will mean occured with the run up a year and a half ago to $150 oil. Its only the beginning and the shock waves will keep coming, becoming even more severe over time and the world's industrial economies will have to contract as the oil supply situation deteriorates.

Of course there will always be people who will attribute all the signs of Peak Oil to other factors, like for example citing that the government has lots of oil, but are faking supply constraint so they can even more royally screw the US public.

Oil companies are not going out in ocean water to drill ultra deep wells for the fun of it, while on the other hand knowing that they have big supplies they could capitalize on in some easier places, like on land. The world's reserves are diminishing and the oil companies have no other choice in the matter.

This is just a brief explanation of the oil situation. I sent Freeacre and Murph a copy of a much longer report that I wrote some time ago that discusses in greater detail the many factors that have brought us to this place, having our societies completely dependant on an energy form that is very unique, and provided for the great transformations in human activities we have seen.

The times of increasing scarcity of this commodity is upon us. This Deepwater Horizen travesty illustrates just how drastic our addition is to this black substance, and the extent we will go to to get our fix.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium

I agree HSW, this is all bloody nonsense. If BP do manage to drill a second well and strike into the first one then what are they going to do? The second one is going to be subject to the same pressure as the first one so why not do to the first one what they are going to do to the second one. If they try to cement down the second to restrict or cap the first the cement will just be blown straight out.

I was moving away from the abiotic position but if they are drilling this deep it gives the theory some credence. Have they asked the Russians if they have any experience in these matters?

rockpicker said...

Different subject, but check out these pictures of what the military and their contractors have been working on for space flight.


freeacre said...

Wow, Rockpicker! No wonder people have been witnessing these triangular and circular crafts all over the place. Them are us. And, we wonder where all the money goes...

rockpicker said...

Not in Daddy's arm?

wv= wizedaya

rockpicker said...

You're gonna love this one...

"It turns out that Goldman Sachs really did place shorts on TransOcean stock days before the explosions rocked the rig in the Gulf of Mexico sending stocks plunging while GS profits soared -- benefitting once again from a huge disaster, having done the same with airline stocks prior to 911 then again with the housing bubble."


wv= enertyl

Hotspringswizard said...

Belgium, regarding finding oil that deep, the vast rearrangements of land masses and materials created by the geologic processes move biologic matter to extreme places that just boggle the mind.

Like for example the fossil sea shells I found at the top of 12,000 foot tall Mt Charleston which is near Las Vegas, a city now located in a vast desert. So it does not supprise me at all that oil which is created by biologic material can end up thousands of feet below ground, and more thousands of feet below an ocean. The bottom of an ocean can become the top of high mountains and of course the reverse also occurs. We can't even really wrap our minds around the spans of immense time in which these things occur.

Regarding whether the Deepwater Horizen well was going to be capped or cloesed, tonight on Free Speech TV officials said the rig that sank was an exploratory drilling rig that was scheduled to be moved off within two days after the blowout, then an oil production rig was scheduled to be moved in to begin producing the oil.

The US is clearly scrambling just to gain access to enough oil to try and keep its immense society going and is not in the position to have the luxury of just capping off well reserves for later use. I'd guess the only reason in the energy constrained environment we are now living in that a well would be temporarily capped or closed would be that there is no availability of a well production rig at the time.

Something to consider too, even though this oil field is in US territory, the oil BP would produce from this well was going on the open market, which means it would not nesecarily be going to the US for its usage. Such is the fungible nature of oil production and where it ends up actually being used.

Also in reference to the uncontrolled well leak, the oil flooding out at high pressure contains sand and this mixture is coming out of the steel pipe at such a high speed that it is acting like a sandblaster against the well pipe and authorities are worried that it will eventually eat through the pipe, and perhaps even causing the well cap itself to be circumvented or blown out, which would be an unprecedented event, and could vastly increase the flow of oil.

Today new info suggest the leak could be 10 times larger than the currenty stated 5000 BPD figure. I see they are transporting that big steel rectangular box out to the leak location to try and capture some amount of the oil at the main leak site. I also saw reports from engineers who held out little hope that this bandaid attempt was going to work at all.

BP who said before this that a leak like this would never occur, and that it was prohibitively expensive ( actually a mere $500,000 ) to install the sonic shut off saftey valve, is now reduced to trying to drop an iron box down over this massive leak. That right there tells you just how desperate and clueless they are about just how to stop this oil volcano, 5000 feet below the ocean. No people can operate down there, just robot mini subs which are in no way meant or rigged to fix a gigantic problem like this, not to mention they are trying to manuever around in a chaotic, oily and pitch dark environment. What an unbelievable mess!

Hotspringswizard said...

And here is a comment from Matt Simmons on the Gulf Leak. He is an oil industry expert:

"It really is a catastrophe," Simmons said. "I don't think they're going to be able to put the leak out until the reservoir depletes. It's just too technically challenging."

RAS said...

Hey everyone. I'm back from my trip.

They damn well better get that leak stopped. It could very well be the end of the human race if they don't.

rockpicker said...

Man if this is true...


rockpicker said...


I don't think I ever thanked you for putting up that list of who owns the media. I've seen other references similar from time to time, but that was the most concise compilation to date. Thanks. I saved it for reference.

Perhaps, as is predicted for Israel, in the end times, Goldman Sachs, too, will have no friends...

freeacre said...

Goldman Sachs SHORTED trans/ocean, the airlines after 9/11, and the housing derivatives, making immense profits off each one?? And, Haliburton bought the company that fixes oil wells gone wrong a WEEK before the disaster?? What the hell??? I'm writing to my congressmen to demand an investigation.
Thanks, Guys, for all the good investigation and links. Huffington Post (yuk) has an article about the logistics of the procedure they are attempting today. The company says that they hope it doesn't blow up.
Oh, yeah, and there was a large coronal ejection from the sun a couple of days ago that may be influencing things like earthquakes right now. Seems it also could influence the core of the earth and the pressure on the well. I'm going to write what will probably be a short post,just to start a new comments section...
Hang in there, Dear Ones. Glad you are back, ras.

rockpicker said...


Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

by Dylan Thomas

found at this website:


very cool, on this page is posted a link to Aaron Russo's masterpiece movie, America: Freedom To Fascism

wv= hapen (trying to make it...)

rockpicker said...

HOMAGE TO MARAT From "Marat / Sade" (Adrian Mitchell / Richard Peaslee) Peter Weiss

Four years after the revolution and the old king's execution Four years after I remember how those courtiers took their final vow String up every aristocrat Out with the priests Let them live on their fat Four years after we started fighting Marat keeps on with his writing Four years after the Bastille fell He still recalls the old battle yell Down with all of the ruling class Throw all the generals out on their arse Good old Marat by your side we'll stand or fall You're the only one that we can trust at all Four years he fought and he fought unafraid Sniffing down traitors by traitors betrayed Marat in the courtroom Marat underground Sometimes the otter and sometimes the hound Fight ing all the gentry and fighting every priest Businessman the bourgeois the military beast Marat always ready to stifle every scheme of the sons of the arse licking dying regime We've got new generals our leaders are new They sit and they argue and all that they do Is sell their own colleagues and ride upon their backs And jail them and break them and give them all the axe Screaming in language that no one understands Of the rights that we grabbed with our own bleeding hands When we wiped out the bosses and stormed through the wall Of the prison they told us would outlast us all Marat we're poor And the poor stay poor Marat don't make Us wait anymore We want our rights and we don't care how We want our revolution now Why do they have the gold Why do they have the power Why why why Do they have the friends at the top Why do they have the jobs at the top We've got nothing Always had nothing Nothing but holes and millions of them Living in holes dying in holes Holes in our bellies and holes in our clothes Marat we're poor And the poor stay poor Marat don't make us wait anymore Poor old Marat they hunt you down The bloodhounds are sniffing all over the town Poor old Marat you work til your eyes turn as red as rust poor old Marat We trust in you ....

freeacre said...

I remember a wonderful rendition of that marat song on an album by, uh... Judy Collins back in the day. GREAT!

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