Friday, April 20, 2012

Darwin? Not So Much....

by muroh

Hot Springs Wizard, in the last post, put up a link to Survivalacres blog with a posting on his view of “bugging out” when the SHTF. I have been advocating much the same thoughts on this for a long time now and have occasionally mentioned some of my thoughts on the subject at the campfire. However, I have a few disagreements concerning his conclusions and the scenarios he offered.

He starts off with the idea that a family man decides to abandon wife and kids and hit the wilderness with a backpack when things turn absolutely sour and lists in detail what he is leaving behind and the consequences. No problem with that scenario but personally I don’t know any men that would be willing to abandon their family like that. Granted, some might be so inclined, but most would try and make it with the family I think, maybe even with a few others at the same time. Safety in numbers and all that implies. The problem with this is that very few people from modern society are actually knowledgeable enough to even try and pull it off. That is, the death rate for such attempts would be quite high, probably around the 90% mark.

Let’s take a look at some things he didn’t mention.

Depending on your locality and what kind of environment you are escaping into, food, water and environmental protection are the primary concerns. In a desert environment heat, water and food would be very hard to overcome. In the northern environments, cold weather is a real problem. None of these problems are impossible to overcome, but so few would be prepared to deal with it as to be a nonsensical try. Remember the Apaches from the early history in America? They did it.

Some time ago, I had a young fellow (20 something) tell me that if things got real bad, he would head off into the wilderness and be self sufficient as he knew how to hunt and fish and build rough shelters. I asked him if he knew how to make his own clothes, how to make gunpowder, how to replace his supplies as they broke or were used up and how he would make the time to do so if he did know how. I got a silent stare. I then asked him just how much game he figured was available and how many other folks would be trying the same thing. I suggested that there would be so many folks so desperate for food that the game would rapidly disappear or become very wary and very difficult to get to. We aren’t living in the 16th century any more, with abundant game and wildlife to sustain humans to any large degree. They would soon be gone. Then what? Plus, I would think there would be a whole lot of folks out there trying to find whatever was edible and willing to take whatever you had.

If you read the diaries and what information there is available concerning the folks that did this kind of living back in the very early days of this countries settlement, it was a very tough way to live in comparison to today. Our modern way of living does not prepare us for this, even close.

What Survival Acres did not mention is the idea that living in a SHTF scenario will demand a much lower standard of living and a much greater demand on an individuals or families ability to adapt, to become much more sustainable by their own efforts. Living in a large urban center doesn’t make that very possible. You will have to supply much, if not all, of your own food and water right off the top. Until the human population is vastly reduced and game recovers (if that will even be possible due to environmental degradation) people are going to have to figure out how to grow their own food wherever they are. If you are living where this is flat out impossible you will need to get somewhere where it is possible. Then, you will have to deal with those folks that figure looting and stealing is the best way to go.

This has little to do with temporary dislocation due to some kind of disaster like volcanoes, or flooding or even radiological dangers. Human populations running away from immediate dangers are common enough. I am not going to even try and deal with cosmological disasters like pole reversals, meteor impacts, continental shifts, rising oceans, or extreme sun activity.

If we look at recorded human history and speculate on unrecorded human history, we can see that small bands of humans survived very well over fairly large land areas in all kinds of environments. But, survival of individuals without the support of some amount of other humans was very rare indeed. The survival needs were broken down into fairly specialized skills that contributed to all of the group; those that learned to make clothing, tools, shelter, hunting, finding water, and, yes, fighting.

One of the more specific thinkers of the early 1900’s was Peter Kropotkin on biology and politics. He maintained that the concept of Darwin’s survival of species by the fittest was off base. He maintained it was cooperation that insured species survival, particularly humans. The survival of individuals by the fittest worked ok, but not for a species. After all, over 90% of all the species that have ever inhabited this planet are now gone, become extinct. Without cataclysmic interruption, it appears that humans are the best suited to for survival as long as they cooperate with each other in that endeavor. It sure appears to me that humans have ceased to really be cooperative to survive, and, instead have become entranced with individual survival; the whole social Darwinism concept that seems to be predominating today.

Our environment has warmed up, but is still wet and cold. We have begun to plant some early starts for the garden in the greenhouse and the cold cases. I’ve got some small engine repairs and clean up to do and a whole bunch of clean up on the property to get done. Finally the wintered over garlic, onions and rhubarb are poking up. It’s still so cool that nothing else is showing signs yet of interest to do much. Warm enough though that the chickens are perking up on the egg laying. Still have to determine what hens to cull out for not being productive at all. I’ve got about 60 rabbit hides drying to get to the tanning when I have the time. I’m really missing Brie.


Hotspringswizard said...

Brie sure is captivated by that little Chick :-)

I think the Bugging Out option only really applies for most when its just plain to dangerous to be where you are, or things have degraded in your local to the point where you have nothing really to lose and moving on to somewhere else might offer you more options to sustain yourself, more than remaining where your at.

I do think that the best thing is to try and work with solid people in your area to create a more sustainable situation, and this way all can help eachother in adapting to what changes are occuring, with the various skills or abilities each has to offer.

Lone survivalism will only be an option for a very small percentage of the population.

murph said...

HUH! Even my comments don't seem to show up. Trying again. Spam box is empty. Let me know if you are having problems posting comments.

rockpicker said...



There's cooperation, and then there's "cooperation." I have no problem with the community coming together to raise a barn, help with the harvest, cut up a winter supply of wood for people who can't do that for themselves. I believe a truly healthy community looks after its constituents, valuing each for his or her own existence, without judgements or expectations of remittance or contribution. A strong warrior and a good hunter makes sure everyone is fed. Good husbandry works the same. You make sure all are fed and watered, snug, and then you shut off the lights, close the door, and head in.
Your creature comforts always come last.

If all the communities in a region are stable, you have a stable region.

Stability and growth are no longer what we are about, on the national scale. It doesn't take a genius to see that, for a while now, government has been preoccuppied with the country's demise.

There is no nation building going on in this country. If government truly wished to save the system, in 2008, instead of bailing out the "too big to fails," it would have given each taxpayer fifty thousand dollars cash money and said "Here, do with this what thou will."

The majority of people would have paid off their mortgages and their credit card bills. The banks would still have gotten the money. The economy would now be humming, if that had been done. Why wasn't it done? Because no one thought of that option? Hey, I'm a stone mason. It was the first thing I thought of.

Our fascistic corporatocracy didn't choose that option because saving the American system was not part of the plan. Destroying the system and supplanting it with a new system is the plan, and recent civil liberties losses "we, the people" have sustained during these last three administrations should provide all the evidence needed to convince even the most trusting and naive flag-waiving believers that our 'elected' aristocrats have only their corporate benefactors best wishes at heart. The middle class was written off a ways back.

The globalists who are running things don't want an American super-power. Their ultimate goal is a gnu whirled hors d'oeuvre of radiated, corexited, chemtrailed and fluoridated serfs, all pulling in their traces for the one percent, oblivious of their honorable history, confused by archaic terms like 'inalienable,' striving to succeed within the rules, as they have been explained.

Our globalist masters severed all sentimental ties to notions of national sovereignty long ago. If you don't think such is the case, look up Agenda 21.

Their idea of 'community' is very different than what most of us think of when we talk about the the place and people where we live. What it boils down to is this: the globalist futurists envision a planet of downtrodden workers, completely and hopelessly subjugated to the point of having to ask permission to fart. The United Nations is the instrument through which this world order will be implemented. What Americans will find new is the concept of human rights being bestowed by men, instead of a Creator. The whole Creator idea is "passe." Our rights will be granted by the "state."

That's important, because what the State gives, the State can take away.

freeacre said...

You said a mouthful, Rockpicker. I've read your comment three times already, and that won't be the last.

Hotspringswizard said...

Great points you have made RP.

Here is a bit of news that will cheer you up!

Is Fukushima's Doomsday Machine About to Blow?

....One of the journalists on "Morning Bird” asked Koide what would happen if the Unit was struck by another earthquake?

Koide answered, "That will be the end."

"The end," the journalist asked, visibly shaken?

"The end," Koide repeated emphatically....

murph & freeacre said...


If one is religious to some degree or another, and you believe the creator gave you some inalienable rights, it would seem to me that the state wouldn't be allowed to take them away. I often wonder if the rest of the cosmos is aware of these rights.

I sure do agree with your comments though man. Yes, our concept of community is differ from person to person. My vision may be very different from anyone else. This whole idea of a cooperative community maybe is a dream and quite contrary to human nature?

And yet, SMALL groups of folks have done it.

Note so sure if the crash had been allowed that things would be humming along though. Eventually it would though, but now, even that would be threatened. Without the wars and taking stuff from other countries by force maybe it would have put us into even worse situation. I just don't know. What those in power are doing to this (and other )countries through its populations is immoral, unethical, and evil as shit. We can blame it on greed, but when you have more money than god, what difference does that make? Power? Now that's when their sickness really shows up. They love the power and adulation. Having power over other folks, is that the basic problem with humans, why they can't live together? You don't have to love humans in the broad sense to not want to control their lives. I guess its because they've been given permission to have power over our lives and because they can.

When we value a comfy life over our freedom, then freedom is the first thing that goes.

rockpicker said...

Belgium; The eagle has landed. Thank you for that. Have not yet had a chance to check it out, but will today and will let you know how worked. Appreciate your efforts.

rockpicker said...

As in 1930's Germany, the police state has arrived here a little at a time, but make no mistake, it's well along in intrenching itself, and there's no one out there to fight it this time.

We have only ourselves to blame...

rockpicker said...

"...The emptying of content in political discourse in an age as precarious and volatile as ours will have very dangerous consequences. The longer the political elite—whether in Washington or Paris, whether socialist or right-wing, whether Democrat or Republican—ignore the breakdown of globalization, refuse to respond rationally to the climate crisis and continue to serve the iron tyranny of global finance, the more it will shred the possibility of political consensus, erode the effectiveness of our political institutions and empower right-wing extremists. The discontent sweeping the planet is born out of the paralysis of traditional political institutions..." - Chris Hedges, from the Globalization of Hollow Politics

The political impotence of which Hedges speaks owes its existence more to design than entropy. Just my opinion, of course.

rockpicker said...

Oh boy.,_Cyclones,_Gravity_Cloaks,_Time_Travel_And_Light_Speed_Spacecraft.html

Hotspringswizard said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hotspringswizard said...

Here is a follow up post by John at Survival Acres furthering his discussion about Bugging Out:

The Fallacy of Bugging Out - Part II

The thing is as the world economic and resource situation degrades, perhaps in a very serious and quick manner at some point because of any thing on a long list of catastropic circumstances, remote wilderness homesteads will become more and more difficult to defend being spread out in very sparsly populated regions.

It kinda strikes me that John is seeing all the elevated interest in doomsday Bug Out senarious being discussed lately, even in shows on TV and it certainly presents a threat to persons/families like John's who have put enormous efforts into survival arrangements at their homesteads.

There in my opinion will be plenty of people of all sorts of ill minded mannerism and behavior that will be able to access remote areas in numbers such that the " locals " in remote senarios will be hard pressed to defend what they have built up. Most people will never hear John's advice so the wild lands will definitely see roving, ill prepared bug out Zombies, or even worse sorts with lots of firepower of their own, and law of the jungle mindsets to go along with it.

I hope for John that he never has to encounter such things, and that he and his family get to benifit from all of the hard work he and his family have done to prepare for harder times to come.

There will be many challenges ahead as to deciding just what types of living arrangements and preparations seem to make sense in accordance with the variences of various people's, groups, communities particular needs/requirments.

There are so many people in such differant circumstances that there will be myriad ways to approach these problems, and alot of it will very much depend on just how events unfold in the days ahead, a fast crash would require differant strategies than say long years of gradual contraction.

No simple or easy solution to any of this.

Anonymous said...

Agreeed, HSW. Who the hell knows how this will all play out.

Hey - didn't Mike Ruppert go to Venezuela to escape from Murika? And didn't he get some sort of bug from hell and had to high-tail it back to to the states to get well? I believe his mantra now is "stay put." Stay where you're comfortable or where you know the "ins" and "outs" of the area.

I've thought about "bugging out" a few times. Not in the US, but elsewhere. Bugging out to somewhere in the US always seems to conjure up scenes from "Deliverence."
no thank you.

Then there's the idea of hanging out on an exotic island in the Caribbean or South Pacific. I actually went to a couple of islands back in 2003. It was great, but, I'm a cute white guy and .... well.... when TSHTF, I probably won't fair too well, especially since the world's problems are caused by white guys. They might see me as someone who might have had a hand in turning the world into schidtza.

I think, that when TSHTFF, many people in many different places WILL come together, especially if everyone is in the same boat -as in loosing their saving and investments, etc. And, there will be pluses to all the shit: "Dancing With the Stars, the Kardistans, Survior, BradJolina, Idol -will probably be dumped purdy darn fast.

My concern in this local is that I'm not sure what the Mormons will do when TSHTFF. Not sure if they'll tolerate non-Mormons in their Mecca. I wonder if they'll use the crisis to purge infidels from Utah and create some sort of Mormon Empire. Something like Shia vs Sunni in Iraq.

Yeah, I know... I'm war-gaming it pretty good. Conjuring up scenes from "The Postman" or whatnot, but, you never know, man. Better think about things now and have a few ideas as to how to cope than be caught flat-footed.

Hot as hell in Mormon HQ these past few days, which I don't mind. I mind cold winters. And, so, the garden is getting a move-on early, which I don't mind at all either. I want some tomatoes and cucumbers by the 4th of July -oh yeah!

A great picture of Brie.


murph said...


Thanks for putting up that link from Survival Acres. I didn't figure he would get part II up so soon.

In that article, he reaffirms much what I talked about in this blog posting. It sure appears to me that small communities of folks willing to cooperate with each other have a better survival chance than loners out living in the wilds for all the reasons John and I put forth. The key here is "cooperation". A sufficient amount of folks living in a community that know a special skill or are willing to learn a special skill I think is how it will work out. In other words, localization. Another way to look at it would perhaps forming a mini civilization of skills.

Within such mini civilizations scattered around, there would arise over time (if not immediate) internal dissension, conflicts of interest etc. This is where reading sufficiently researched novels like Louis L'Amour and others, and diaries from the settlers going west in the 15th,16th and 17th centuries of this country are interesting. Many of the authors of this genre of novels actually did the research to make the stories authentic as well as entertaining. Their descriptions of how they survived would be nearly impossible today. And, in the end, their survival ultimately depended to a greater or lesser extent on the rest of the civilization to supply essential ingredients, from simple supplies like salt and flower to axe heads, horse shoes and plow shears in the case of the white folks taking it on. Of course, the indigenous folks had large enough groups and a low enough population and enough specialized skills to keep their groups alive without depending on the white man's civilization to support them. Of course, with the coming of the white man and the utter destruction of the natural environment on which the indigenous folks depended was their demise as a civilization, principally the wiping out of the natural food supply, buffalo and other wild herds.

In reading of the very early history of Europe and Asia, much the same thing happened. Those sources of food for which small mini civilizations depended on for survival were decimated by influxes of other large groups of people.

That is why Freeacre and myself are pretty much adamant in the localization of communities effort. If the SHTF scenario comes upon us, it will have to be small groups cooperating to have any kind of survival take place, since what composes our greater civilization appears to be disintegrating and our dependence on it will become very tenuous.

Anonymous said...

"Deliverance" I love it, That movie frightened me of the South, like "Jaws" frightened me of the ocean. Did you ever see "Winter Bone"? There are just some places that are impossible to blend in with if you are not from there. Even if you got the magic underpants, you probably would not pass very long as a Mormon, either.
I'd love you to send us pictures of your garden so we could post them. I'm just beginning to get starts going in little cups. Gotta work on that right now, in fact. Gotta go.

rockpicker said...

Speaking of cooperation, I'd say there's been way too much between the U.S. government and Israeli communications companies.

Anonymous said...

No, I haven't seen "Winter Bone" but I checked out the trailer on Youtube. Might have to rent it some day. It reminded me of the time I lived in South Carolina. I'd go to a store and the clerk would be talking-it-up and having a good 'ol time with everyone who came through the line -unitl I opened my Yankee mouth. Then it was more like, "What the hell you do'in in my town, boy?"

In the summertime, I wear short sleeves to work which tells others that I'm not one of the "Chosen" because short sleeves would show my "Jesus Jammies."

Awww -my garden is puny. And right now, it's just seedlings, but once it starts going, maybe I'll take some pitures of it - close-up pics. Yeah, they'll make it look like a mega-farm.



Anonymous said...

Oh hey, forgot - you know what we call coffee shops around here?

MFZ's, which stands for

Mormon Fee Zones.


Hotspringswizard said...

Randy, the family and I will be passing through your Mormom Hood in mid June heading for a week vacation up in the Yellowstone area. Maybe we could meet up somewhere there by the 15 FWY, a restaurant our something. Just let me know if thats something you want to do :-)

Anonymous said...

try these for long term storage seeds tha are organic and heirloom

rockpicker said...

"Info on Operation Unplug


Thanks for a great site. I check it almost every day for dose of truth.

I am an Oath Keeper and US Army veteran. I thought I'd forward some info that may be of interest.

The Oath Keepers are sponsoring Operation Unplug. It is another attempt to non-violently get the attention of the government and masses and alert them to the problems we have as a nation, etc... If you agree with this, please consider promoting it and joining us in this message.

Please copy, email and post in your communities!

NDAA 2012 , AUMF 2002, Executive Order March 2012-Removing right to protest
U.N. Dictating Foreign Policy
All Americans who are 1st responders are exempt, all w/medical problems/oxygen are exempt
Do not waste time and energy on those who do not wish to comply...the government will!



Anonymous said...

Sure thing, HSW.

Maybe we can meet at a MFZ down the road aways.


rockpicker said...


If you're coming up this way, Oldensoul and I are in Sheridan, Montana. About twenty miles north of Virginia City. It's a cool old ghost town, second territorial capital of Montana--you and the family might enjoy it. Oldensoul works for the State as a curator of historical collections in Virginia City and Nevada City. It's about two hours north of West Yellowstone, down the Madison, then over the hill, west. We'd love to get together with you, if that works out for you guys.

Hotspringswizard said...

Sounds good Randy. If you want when it gets closer to the trip time we can exchange contact phone numbers and can decide what works best for a meet up. It may be on our trip home as we will have more time then. Heading up we will drive after my wife gets home from work in the evening maybe up as far as St George. Then the next day are looking to drive all the way to our lodgings in Jackson Hole.

RP, I see on the Bing Map where your at, up the 287 from the West Yellowstone entrance. Since we are staying in Jackson Hole I wonder if its quicker just to head from there west to Idaho Falls then up the 15FWY as it looks like it could take longer going all the way up through the Teton area, Yellostone then the 287. I surely would enjoy seeing you and Oldensoul! I'll have to ask the wife and daughters if they are up for a day trip out that far.

I'll mapquest it to see what kind of driving time it would take from Jackson Hole to your place. Also maybe and option might be for each party to drive some distance in the others direction and meet somewhere between. Anyway I can also get you my phone number like for Randy sometime in early June so we can discuss the options.

Also we can if you guys wish exchange the contact info by e-mail, mines:

Yeah like it will be any more " secret " than sharing the phone info here, since the mega data mining center in Utah is capturing all our communications anyway. No place to really have privacy for our personal messages these days:-(

Hotspringswizard said...

Excellent discussion here from Pepe Escobar on the geopolitical realities of the rising Brics nations as related to the U.S./Nato interest and goals, as well as general analysis of the world's changing centers of power and influence:

....So this twenty-first century world of ours is shaping up right now largely as a confrontation between the U.S./NATO and the BRICS, warts and all on every side. The danger: that somewhere down the line it turns into a Full Spectrum Confrontation. Because make no mistake, unlike Saddam Hussein or Muammar Gaddafi, the BRICS will actually be able to shoot back....

rockpicker said...

Tired of all the gun violence?

rockpicker said...

Heaven help us is DHS is successful in branding journalists covering police arrests "terrorists in the making."

rockpicker said...


-White Hats Report

Arrests are happening!

murph said...


We have been notified that blogger accounts are going to be transferred to Google accounts (I think Google bought I have been trying to do the change over but find it confusing and difficult. If this blog goes down for a while, you will know why until we get it straightened out.

Anonymous said...

I think that a lot of folks have in their head the vision of a bug out where they are self sufficient and brave, meeting the vagaries of the world with a square jaw and good American gumption.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. Bugging out is nothing more and nothing less than becoming a refugee.

Notice how, when you use the correct word, the prospect becomes a little less appetizing.

The biggest problem with getting to a point where this issue can be discussed realistically is the strange confluence of Hollywood and doomer sites. Doomers have a vision of living wild as an extended camping trip.

rockpicker said...

Here's some Hollywood faces you might recognize, reminding us all to ponder our present situation...

rockpicker said...

Chris Hedges, on coming together to save the planet...

freeacre said...

Well, May is starting out with a bang... seems white powder (corn starch)was sent to some NY Banks. Messages regarding May 1 and "you are not in control," etc. Here's the link:

Happy May Day.

rockpicker said...

Here's a link to a recent Dutchsinse response to preposterous claims made by

Anonymous said...


Vandag ik ben jarige

And silliness has descended on me.

Let's see who is the first to work this one out - I don't think it is all that difficult.


rockpicker said...

"The Regime's Guide to Good Citizenship"

Anonymous said...

this is off the wall, i love ever mother fucker that don't mind hanging with real folks, speak some good shit ok+?
love is a bitch ain't it/./.fuck so much opportunity for it say fmily try to not embarrse her oi?
'oapasure for alcoa hol tgus us tger agara re audkij huuukayii ; u adu '
gidf iiiafhjduj

hack this bitch l anvpid9ja'mvnz;'lckclxkvjasdfjsnv'a fiweioahfpasoj asf pspjffpaosif8v csk

Anonymous said...

people need to be with each other for a while to listen to each others stories ,,
god da,,m this nite is good soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo gooooood.@!!@!!!@!@@!

new viberator sings james dean and the emp jumped towards the truth and we all live together soon, any one got change for a nickel ?

you do???

Anonymous said...

Don't know if any of you have seen this, but it is very informative. At least I got a lot from it.


rockpicker said...

I would lay myself long
in garden straw
among the onions and the peas,
and nestle with a dreaming cat
or jealous dog,
and I would let the harsh day
chase what it pleases, let a Dinar
of setting sun melt on lids
from its chokecherry perch,
enriching what it falls on.
I would hear the fabric
birds weave with song,
(mid-day, even, frayed tatters),
and wrap my thin frame
in that birdsong cloth.
Redwings, sandhills, magpies,
chickadees, crows. They sing me
falling into friable sleep.

What shadow shows me
crow's shadow on my shoulders?
I feel him swift and black
on my back before he passes.
Mrs. Magpie is matriarch.
We have not yet begun to talk.
But we size each other up,
and she is not afraid.