Sunday, May 20, 2012


That picture of a bearded gentleman is Peter Kropotkin, the subject of today's post


I finally got the formatting to look right. Thanks Hotsprings.

I mentioned some time ago that I was delving into Kropotkin’s writings. His stuff is not something to breeze through with understanding and is taking me some time to absorb his concepts. Had a friend mention to me that Kropotkin was excellent at putting him to sleep. I mentioned back that I felt the same way about Eckhart Tolle.

I think it behooves us to ask some questions; what is the legitimate function of government, and how powerful should it be?

We currently have a majority of our citizens that are totally dependent upon the government to enable them to live, dependent upon that body. Is this a legitimate function of government? If you are of a more politically liberal point of view, yes it is. Some of the arguments for this are hard to refute. What do we do with citizens that for various reasons cannot support themselves, temporarily or permanently? Should the government have the mandate to confiscate fruit of an individuals labor to support someone else?

Of course, without government-backed efforts, we would not have our highway system, most universities, most research labs, and stifled advanced research. Without government backing, our lives would mostly be at a much lower “standard of living”.

All of which evades the point. Is it legitimate for a government, in a moral or even a ethical sense, to forcefully confiscate money from you for projects that you may not approve of? Should the government have the ability to force you into military service for wars that have an agenda we care little about? I am using this in a broad sense. A government that creates the financial situation for which the only way a young man can get 3 hots and a cot and must join the military is still confiscating your life. Of course, that young man in actuality has a choice, between bad and maybe a worse situation.

From a political view, Jesus was an anarchist. Your only loyalty was to God.

Kropotkin is what I would call a fundamental anarchist in that whatever government is formed has to be with the agreement of the population involved and if it becomes intrusive or advocating actions that people can’t stand, it is dissolved.

Kropotkin and modern anarchists insist that human relations should all be voluntary right from the start. Kropotkin asserted that people will act morally from an innate need for the relationships.

One of the best futuristic novels (IMO) that speculates on what an anarchistic society would look like is “The Probability Broach” by L. Neil Smith.

In the modern anarchistic thought, I have put this in the blog before.

It’s true. If your idea of healthy human relations is a dinner with friends, where everyone enjoys everyone else’s company, responsibilities are divided up voluntarily and informally, and no one gives order or sells anything, then you are an anarchist, plain and simple. The only question that remains is how you can arrange for more of your interactions to resemble this model.

Whenever you act without waiting for instructions or official permission, you are an anarchist. Any time you bypass a ridiculous regulation when no one’s looking, you are an anarchist. If you don’t trust the government, the school system, Hollywood, or the management to know better than you when it comes to things that affect your life, that’s anarchism, too. And you are especially an anarchist when you come up with your own ideas and initiatives and solutions.

As you can see, it’s anarchism that keeps things working and life interesting. If we waited for authorities and specialists and technicians to take care of everything, we would not only be in a world of trouble, but dreadfully bored—and boring—too boot. Today we live in that world of (dreadfully boring!) trouble precisely to the extent that we abdicate responsibility and control.

Anarchism is naturally present in every healthy human being. It isn’t necessarily about throwing bombs or wearing black masks, though you may have seen that on television; (Do you believe everything you see on television? That’s not anarchist!). The root of anarchism is the simple impulse to DO IT YOURSELF; everything else follows from this.

Here is an interesting take on anarchism and the early Jews;

In the previous post, I mentioned one aspect of Kropotkin’s concern about biological survival of a species. He asserted that it was only through cooperation would a thinking species survive. That survival of the fittest only pertained to individuals, not to a group.

Kropotkin’s greatest moral attribute of humans is the dictate of “treating other as you would be treated, under similar circumstances”. He further states;

“We all love moral strength, we all despise moral weakness and cowardice. Every moment our looks and words show the repugnance we feel towards cowardice, deceit, intrigue, want of moral courage. We betray our disgust, even when under the influence of a worldly education we try to hide our contempt beneath those lying appearances which will vanish as equal relations are established among us”. Sounds pretty egalitarian to me.

Kropotkin is a great believer in equality, across the board and respect for the individual. He does not support the mutilating of an individual in the name of some moralistic ideal.

Kropotkin was born in 1842, and makes many observations to his contemporary society. I find it interesting that what we bitch about today, he was bitching about back in the late 1800’s; Hypocrisy, deceit, wars, inequality, lies, backstabbing, and a general restriction on individual freedom. He was deeply concerned with the hierarchy of authority and its abuses. He goes to great length to demonstrate the morality of an anarchist system of social organization. He sometimes becomes rather bitter with religion, pointing out the hypocrisy of that social force and its abuse of hierarchy.

I have much to go in reading Kropotkin’s essays and dissertations. But so far, he was a man of his times and just as applicable in today’s world, and for me, a very interesting man to learn about. There are a few questions that have come up concerning his writings, but maybe they will be answered as I plow through his stuff. I suspect that his influence today will be similar to his time, a small but vocal adherents to his ideas.

It appears obvious to me that a strong central state will always become corrupt and self-serving, always, at least so history teaches us. Central states always seek control over everything that can be controlled. Their dissolution may take some time, but dissolution always occurs. Central states, always, are run by a very small minority of elites that always have an agenda that is self-serving. Even during the formation of this country and its constitution, which was rather radical at the time, the folks writing the document were self-serving, looking ahead by generations for a continuation of elitist control.

It sure appears to me that Kropotkin’s contention that only an anarchistic society can actually survive over the long term at the benefit of all of its citizens with maximum freedom. This would necessitate that each person is willing to take responsibility for their actions and that only freely accepted associations would be the norm. That societies are prone to grant power to the few in a hierarchy because of the promises they make to grab power keeps us from having a free society. If a more anarchistic society is ever to become a reality, there will be great pain within the society to form it because of this dependency. The present attitude of populations across the globe, and its dependency on a strong central government, does not bode well for such a change. However, folks have to make a decision as to which causes more harm and hardship over time. It is the same with our present economic situation. The pain that would have to be endured by the population to cure what ails us economically is unacceptable to most folks. But, it will come, it always does.


Hotspringswizard said...

Choosing a life path of simplicity I think allows you to be more anarchist as an individual. Whether, or not, the larger society and its collectives of human cooperation chooses ( not likely ) a similiar way of being will have to take care of itself in accordance with the myriad flows of the prevailing mass consciousness of the living. Meanwhile I'll be creating my own little niche of anarchism :-)

An example of which was yesterday when I spent special time outside the bounds of societal dictates/norms as a naturist with my family at a new hot springs source I have been working on with cement and little pipes which allow me to utilize the hot sources. My efforts have brought to fruition a great little soaking pool at 100 degrees, a temperature I have always found to be perfect!

The hot water comes from two small sources right next to eachother, one at 116 degrees, and the other is 117 degrees. I found the sources last year at Deep Creek where I hike, and I had been looking for new sources. They are at creek level so I had to wait until the stream level lowered to begin my project. Its a beautiful little spot and I decided to name the place, Ori Hotsprings :-) I left one of my little clay heads there above the sources yesterday, as it was the first time I was able to make the little temporary, ( lined with thick black plastic ) soaking pool. I also burned into a piece of driftwood the word Ori and placed it above the pool.

I took up a little Cottonwood tree that I have been growing from a branch cutting and planted it right by the sources to provide future shade. That little tree is a cutting off of what I call the Spirit Tree which is planted up in Hidden Valley, a place I hike near my rock garden, the Crystal Oasis in the desert mountains near our home. And the Spirit Tree is another cutting off of a tree actually growing at our home :-)

The hot water from the sources is pure and clean, coming directly out of cracks in solid granite. You can put it in a bottle, then in the creek to cool it down and it taste great and provides you all the drinking water you need so there's no need to take a bunch of heavy water with you when hiking there :-)

I'll send you ( Murph and Freeacre ) a photo my wife took of me yesterday soaking in the little pool, while looking out at the stream on the opposite side of the wall of small boulders between the creek and pool. There is an Alder Tree which is angled ( bent by winter flooding ) right over the top of the pool and it provides shade from the hot sun during the day which is very nice to have :-)

Great points in your missive once again Murph. We are of like mind on so many considerations :-)

rockpicker said...

"Hell is truth seen too late."
-Chris Hedges

I don't know who said it, but "that government is best which governs least," seems like damned profound axiom.

Anonymous said...


I'm hiding my new haircut under my serious hat now:-) Where to grab hold of this particular jelly and fit it into a comment without it becoming fatuous is going to be a problem but let me have a go.
Firstly I have to say that Murph and me see many things roughly the same way so there is no disagreement with the general thrust of the post.

Let me start by having a look at this one: “Kropotkin is what I would call a fundamental anarchist in that whatever government is formed has to be with the agreement of the population involved and if it becomes intrusive or advocating actions that people can’t stand, it is dissolved” We have all seen , if only in film, meetings of a hundred people in a village hall to discuss some planning issue (new by pass or supermarket application) and the difference of opinion that results. If it is like that then how do you get 400 million people to agree on anything. The way this is solved in most countries is for someone to say “This is what I believe and if you support this position over other points of view then that is what will happen.” So far so good but it is generally not possible in a modern society to elect someone to deal with just one issue. Problem comes when you agree with that persons position on the economy but disagree with their stance on education. Then you have to go with the best overall fit or stand yourself, which is always possible. Parties in a democracy are generally elected for a term of office. Situations developing in the meantime have to be dealt with and the party leader will always claim to have the backing of the people for doing whatever they want. Did Trueman have the support of the nation for dropping two nuclear bombs on Japan. And what would the American people have said if they knew their representatives had let Pearl Harbour happen just so they could do it? In theory, if the government is defeated in the parliamentary assembly then there has to be a vote of confidence in the incumbent government. If the government is defeated then the people must choose a new government. The sad fact is that once representatives have power, the first person they represent is themselves and for the represented they do just enough to get re-elected and that is the failure of representative democracy.

“ Kropotkin and modern anarchists insist that human relations should all be voluntary right from the start. Kropotkin asserted that people will act morally from an innate need for the relationships.” This is an Anarchist point of view – it also happens to be the Libertarian point of view. Have a look at this link from the Mises Institute, a Libertarian organisation explaining the Law of Association:

This starts off very good but then deductions are made from this into a free market economy. A free market economy needs banks and if these were the sort Jessie James used to rob then well and good but where do borrowers and investors stand if their particular bank does get robbed. The obvious answer is for all the banks to chip in to an insurance policy to take care of this eventuality and there we are into a central banking system which is the root cause of all the worlds economic problems. Libertarian goal posts get stretched so much they become the width of the playing field.

There is a modern viewpoint that big is bad but this does not necessarily mean that small is beautiful. By way of example, look at the city states of Italy between the 10th and 15th centuries. They eventually failed because as Kropotkin rightly points out rivalry took precedence over co-operation.

I could write more, later perhaps but I will end this comment by saying that I believe Kropotkin's beliefs could be made to work in the modern world but it must involve a supreme effort of will for it not to get subverted.

This is also worth seeing on how people get sucker-punched into something they later regret.

Anonymous said...

rivalry took precedence over co-operation.

and that precedence is what trumps keopotkin's assertion that people will act morally from an inate need for relationships... p

murph said...


I had a rather extensive reply to your comment and lost it somewhere, I know not sigh. So I'll try again.

Several of your statements we have talked about in the past.

I agree, how in hell do you get 400 million folks to agree on anything. Your comment on some form of representative government is right on. The consequence is that a lot of voters are single issue voters. I have a friend who would vote for a Hitler or Stalin if he advocated gun rights.

We have to answer the question concerning any arrangement of "democracy"; Is the concept of majority decision making really a form of mob rule? Do compromises ever really solve a problem? Is there indeed a right way and a wrong way? Can a unanimous consent ever be accomplished? Can a representative form of government ever be truly concerned with the general population well being?

I don't know if you follow "the market ticker" by Karl Denninger. He is much into the Libertarian platform. He says that the people running on that ticket are not following their own party platform, just more of the same-o shit. Of course, I say that is true of the Dems or Repugs too. IMO, I have not heard one politician publicly stand up and define the acute and pressing problems we all face on this tired old rock, even Ron Paul. For the most part, he is also a single issue politician.

I am somewhat familiar with the Mises Institute. Very much into free market, capitalism, and the greatest reward going to the most productive. Without delving into his assertions much, he fails to acknowledge that all of his assertions are ideology based, not what really transpires. I have no problem with aspiring to high ideals, but ignoring what makes them break down and not work is stupidity and ignorance at its worst. He loves to rant about the productive folks getting the raw end of the deal and decries the muddy waters of class conflict, as if class is an end all to human organization and is inherently good. There are other ways for a society to organize, we have a very small amount presently and a large amount of historical data to that extent. Because the arrow maker and flint knapper are specialized skills absolutely needed in a tribe, does that mean they should own all the assets of the tribe? He also fails to acknowledge that a very large percentage of the money folks do not produce anything. Whatever they did originally, they have evolved into leeches, producing nothing and scooping in huge amounts of money and privileges. Remember some years ago you and I had a long discussion on Bill Gates?

Malick seems to feel that any form of egalitarianism is a swear word. He seems to be affixed to the concept of social Darwinism.

All of us have been indoctrinated from birth with concepts about how societies should be run, all of it from the perspective of the elites. It appears truly exceptional to me when we find a person who thinks outside of that box.

murph said...


"rivalry took precedence over co-operation.

and that precedence is what trumps keopotkin's assertion that people will act morally from an inate need for relationships... p"

The question arises then why some societies did not engage in the wholesale practice of rivalry. If societies did not co-operate, how did they survive? It appears to me that rivalry was a product of agitation by the few, not a general human trait.

Anonymous said...


If we look at the problem from the current standpoint there are no easy answers but all you have to do to do it, is to do it. “Easier said than done”, says you.

A couple of weeks ago I was telling my step daughter and her husband about an interview I flunked years ago and it is relevant here too. The interviewer guy said to me “If you get this job then you will be working as part of a team. Now what does a team mean to you.”
I said “A group of people working together to achieve a common objective.”
There was a kind of awkward silence and you know when you just have the feeling this was not what was expected or even what he was looking for. So after a few seconds I said “ You want me to tell you about co-operation and about one person stepping in or helping another when they are having difficulties, of everybody supporting everybody else and the whole being greater than the sum of its parts but you know all of that is so much sociological bullshit and I will tell you why. Every member of the team will be seen to do the co-operation thing but only up to a point. In any system or situation where there is a hierarchy every member of the team will want to be the one who is promoted over their team mates and so they will keep something back for themselves in order to shine above their rivals. And in that situation the team works against its own purpose.” And this is the part which answers p's point. “Take away the hierarchy and the team works exactly as it should.”

Needless to say, I did,'t get the job. But to carry on with the same point and explore how a team should work let's take a look at the early American settlers. They took part in communal house and barn raising. Some may have known more about setting the foundations and others may have known more about making the roof but they didn't need a centralised planning department and a set of building regulations to tell them how to proceed. Everybody knew what they had to do and they got on with doing it.

The captain of the football team is not necessarily the one who scores the most goals but is the one everybody agrees on to represent their views and to effect discipline on the field of play.

The Native American Chief does not stand above anyone else in the tribe but is chairman of council meetings and spokesman for the tribe.

Compare this with a Prime Ministership in a democracy. This person is given the status of “first amongst equals” but they are hardly equals when the one who is first can sack any or all of the others.

Is the arrow maker and the flint knapper more or less important than the wheat grinder. Where does washing, cooking and making clothes fit into the scheme of things. If they all decide to share their wealth then they can have non productive musicians to entertain them otherwise the would be musicians can go and tend cattle and stand higher than the cooks and cleaners.

Anonymous said...


Another aspect of democracy not previously mentioned is the one way flow of ideas. By this I mean that somebody somewhere, behind the government decides on a course of action they would like to see implemented and go about using the democratic process in order to achieve it. They bater the same thing home time and again until they get their way and then they stop asking. I will give two examples of this. In the early 70's the Conservative party wanted to take Britain into the EU, or Common Market as it was then known. Every year for a number of years the public were asked to back the plan. There were a couple of referenda as I seem to remember. Eventually the Conservatives won an election fighting on an EU ticket and they took Britain in. After that they never asked if we wanted to come out.

It was the same thing with the dath penalty. Someone somewhere decided it was barbarric and should be stopped. The British public were of an eye for an eye and not providing food and shelter for killers mentality. They thought abolitionists were just cheary faced wimps full of sociology
degrees and were not giving in to that sort of nonsence. Every year for as long as I can remember there was a private members bill on abolition until one year it was voted in and then they stopped asking.

Anonymous said...


Thought you might like to be reminded of this by Mark Knopfler.

A long time ago came a man on a track
Walking thirty miles with a sack on his back
And he put down his load where he thought it was the best
Made a home in the wilderness
Built a cabin and a winter store
And he ploughed up the ground by the cold lake shore
The other travelers came walking down the track
And they never went further, no, they never went back
Then came the churches then came the schools
Then came the lawyers then came the rules
Then came the trains and the trucks with their load
And the dirty old track was the telegraph road

Then came the mines and then came the ore
Then there was the hard times then there was a war
Telegraph sang a song about the world outside
Telegraph road got so deep and so wide
Like a rolling river ...

And my radio says tonight it's gonna freeze
People driving home from the factories
Six lanes of traffic
Three lanes moving slow ...

I used to like to go to work but they shut it down
I got a right to go to work but there's no work here to be found
Yes and they say we're gonna have to pay what's owed
We're gonna have to reap from some seed that's been sowed
And the birds up on the wires and the telegraph poles
They can always fly away from this rain and this cold
You can hear them singing out their telegraph code
All the way down the telegraph road

I'd sooner forget but I remember those nights
Yeah, life was just a bet on a race between the lights
You had your head on my shoulder you had your hand in my hair
Now you act a little colder like you don't seem to care ...
Well just believe in me baby and I'll take you away
From out of this darkness and into the day
From these rivers of headlights these rivers of rain
From the anger that lives on the streets with these names
'cos I've run every red light on memory lane
I've seen desperation explode into flames
And I don't want to see it again ...

From all of these signs saying 'sorry but we're closed'
All the way down the telegraph road

Anonymous said...

murph... i agree as to agitation by the few but disagree that rivalry is not a general human trait. forms of rivalry - aka competition - are found in every society. cooperation is found in every society.

it kinda like the chicken or egg cunundrum. what takes precidence at any given time? what trumps what in the instinct to survive depends on the circumstances the threat to survival presents. the few agitators are merely playing to the pre-disposition for rivalry where success is often directly proportionate to cooperation... p

rockpicker said...

Jefferson once remarked that he had complete faith in the sound judgement of the electorate, as long as it was informed.

How do you get 400 million people to agree on anything?

You scare the bejeezus out of them by creation of a common enemy.

You treat them like sheep by controlling every aspect of their consciousness, including but certainly not limited to, altering consciousness with natural substances.

You change their history so that it reflects your unstated goals.

You bugger culture and all institutions to promote your paradigm.

I suggest the elites who run the place have a long tradition of "service to self" mentality and encouraging ego-centric behavior among the masses serves their agenda.

Officialdom has deliberately created an "Alice in Wonderland" normalcy in which mayhem is accepted and expected. Fraudsters go unpunished, or get promoted. The health 'care' industry makes people sick. Food lacks nutrition and is fortified with known poisons. Even the air above us is tainted, without any explanation, except to say, "No, it's not."

Gaining control of the 'legitimate press' was an important step in getting us to this point. The press is used to focus the sheeps' attention on whatever direction suits the Suits.

Those of us who see, and raise voices in opposition, those resisting the steady advance of fascist totalitarianism into which our current system has morphed, have only desperation to look forward to, unless the sheep awaken.

The sane, (the protestors in Chicago calling for an end to NATO-sponsored wars,) are portrayed as the lunatic fringe by manipulated media, while the perverts and deviants who run the show are sold us as sober and capable.

Order Out of Chaos

They mean it.

murph said...


Yup, had similar interview with the same result. My take is; don't ask question you don't want the answers to. Corporate personal directors have a script to work from, a formula they feel is necessary to hire by. I remember back in the 60's and the 70's where the only questions asked was; Can you do the job and if you worked part time you had a bit higher hourly rate of pay over the full time rate.

murph said...


I agree with your comment about competition. Is it different than rivalry? At what level does either term become a negative aspect to the society? While there is competition and rivalry even among the more "primitive" societies, most often it was not used to commit genocide or completely eliminate the rival. There are of course example of it happening. The Aztecs used to field million man armies where the last one standing was the winner. That might be an interesting research project.

murph said...


Your last is so true

Anonymous said...


Murph, pleased I am not alone in these things.

Well there is that of course. Murph speculated on whether democracy contained an element of mob rule. What you have described is not democracy it only has the illusion of democracy but does that matter so long as it gets the desired results. How much influence do you figure the internet has on keeping people informed and how informed do you figure people in general are over these things. Avaaz have run three campaigns on internet restrictions and each time the same stuff comes back in a reformatted form. I guess those that want restrictions will just keep asking until people get tired of responding and that will be democracy in action. Hitler for all his faults was the only one who broke ranks and exposed the big lie but that was just hubris when he imagined himself to be invincible. The PTB backed the Allies after Hitler threatened to hang them out to dry for their war funding so they are a determined lot and will not be such a 'push over'.

Give your gun to the nice policeman and have your papers ready as you get into the back of he wagon before we take you to a place of peace and tranquility.

This is Murphs post but I guess what we were discussing were the alternative grouping arrangements after the battle is lost and won. Maybe we could all find a place of safety in South America or a little island somewhere but when the opposition has hotels all around the monopoly board, there is only so long you can hide out in jail or free parking.

Btw sorry for the typos in the two parter. I ran spell check and posted the original.

rockpicker said...

Murph; Case in point.

As far as co-operation vs. competition, I think the conflict has its roots in spirituality.

Ultimately, how we conduct our lives has a great deal to do with how we view death, on a personal level.

A belief that this plane of existence is all there is, that nothing of 'you' came before, or survive's after your physical 'vessel' disappears, would seem to mesh well with a service- to -self attitude, in which the illusion of individualism is promoted and prized.

The native cultures, the pagans and animists, traditionally view the world as alive, and death as a transition, rather than a finite event. Whether there is an afterlife or not, believing there is tempers one's fear of death, which in turn effects how one lives.

Fear of death is an important card the Cabal likes to play. That's why material goods and creature comforts are so easily used to manipulate those who have lost touch with the spirit.

The war in which we find ourselves engaged is a spiritual one.

Hotspringswizard said...

Like Murph I agree with your points RP in your " May 22, 2012 10:50 AM " post. I see Kunstler this week is once again giving one of his ( many times wrong ) definitive predictions, " But imagine a world where nobody gets paid. That might be our world by the end of the week ".

There is the situation with JP Morgans' recent 2 billion dollar losses as it relates to the 1.4 trillion dollar derivitavs market, economic weapon of mass destruction that some feel can go off any time now. Then as discussed on the Lauren Lyster show ( RT tv ) yesterday the absurd indications that JP Morgan is actually gaining economically, by the 2 billion loss. There are so may convoluted finacial schemes interplaying now designed for the purpose of plundering the clueless masses.

We will all be left scrambling to adapt to the increasing changes coming our way. I thinks its a safe bet to say that none of us will change the greater picture of the goings on. We will do what we can to keep abreast of events as they unfold, but that which we can achieve realistically will be through our individual, and local efforts in our immediate communities. These efforts will combine into the greater flow to precipitate the greater mass movements of sociological change. Whatever life path we all choose, still we will all get swept along to one degree or another with the greater currents of evolving events.

But like a wrote a long time ago in my life, some fish in this river can find for themselves a secluded niche beyond the influence of the rushing rivers more roiling waters. This is the path of seeking the simple life :-)

Here is the link to a photo of our daughter Lea at Deep Creek one day recently when I was spending time with her and our daughter Amber. It is a beautiful spot just downstream from Ori Hotsprings that I spoke of in my earlier post.

I always relish spending such simple and rewarding time. I would show you guys a picture of the new hot springs spot I have been working on but my photo site is linked to at the Deep Creek Hot Springs forum where I am one of the moderators ( and long time contributor ) and since my photos are regularly viewed by visitors there some folks would be very eager to find any new hot springs that are in the vicinity of Deep Creek Hot Springs.

Back in the early 90,s a couple of my friends and I found some other hot springs sources in the same area and built three hot pools there, but I have never shown photos of those pools at my Flickr site for the same reason. Those sources were also unrecorded hotsprings. I call that place Shangri-La :-) I did however put one photo ( just the pool water seen ) of the largest pool there at my Flickr site, and it is entitled " memories " and shows the torquoise hot springs waters in what we named the Arrowhead Pool. I've wished I could put the many photos of that place at my photo site but the extra exposure would not be good. Anyway this photo link below shows you how wonderful a creek environment the area is :-)

Here is the photo of the Arrowhead Pool at Shangri-La Hot Springs, as I call it :-) The brownish part at the bottom is a long seat we put in the pool and the tourqoise and green area above is the deeper part of the pool. I've spent so many long hours day and night soaking in this great little hot pool which is usually around 100 to 102 degrees :-)

rockpicker said...


I get it. More lawlessness and chaos, until we're saturated with the bizarre and the bullshit, and BEG for order. Problem, reaction, solution.


rockpicker said...

"Chicago, Chicago, it's my kinda town..."

Canadians' right to dissent is being taken away, too.

Government did not grant us this right, and government is illegitimate that tries to take it away.

Anonymous said...


Hey rp I read the article you put up on the Obama give away and then I looked up Wrangle Island and Bennett Island on Google Maps to see where they are. Both are on the Asian side of the International date line and Google clearly states that both of these islands already belong to Russia. I know distances are hard to estimate so far north but Bennett Island is so far west (or east) that it lies more or less directly above Japan on a Mercator projection. This is probably as far from Alaska as Quebec. What is going on – is somebody trying to get Obama a bad name?

Anonymous said...


Btw I forgot to add that IMO what most people fear is not the state of death, (we don't really know too much about this)but the moment of death.

rockpicker said...

SATS; Thanks for the heads-up on the Alaskan islands story. I read down through the comments and there seem to be arguments on both sides of the issue. Will have to do some more delving into that one.

Concerning the besmearching of Obama, he does that plenty well himself, admitting to smoking weed and "doing a little blow" publicly, while condoning the present drug laws in this country. Yeah, he's really funny.

Here's something worth watching, as it pertains directly to our current post and recent discussion.
Rosa Koire talking about Agenda 21.

Anonymous said...

Great post, Murph. I might have to get to the library to check-out some of Pete's stuff or at least get "The Probability Broach" since the mass quantities of beer that I've consumed throughout my existance has scramble the marbles a bit -and a novel might, might just penetrate the fog.

Since he was bitching about things that we're still bitching about today, do you think that anything will change -change towards something closer to an egalitarian-kinda society? And if not, does that mean that maybe most humans have a genetic tendency to be violent, want to control people and fuck 'em over to get ahead, etc? Or is it that those who want power to mess with people and rule the world use this ambition to create a society or world where this type of self-serving attitude is encouraged, rewarded and replicated?

I worked at a a small university in North Carolina once and the Chancellor was once a professor of history and he believed that there should be conflict everywhere -that people should be struggling and fighting with others in order for shit to get done. So, each department went fighting for funds, grants, recognition, scraps, etc. It seemed to make everyone at the university very anxious, to say the least. And, I think it brought out the worst in people. But then, I didn't stick around long enought to see if this mode of operation transformed this school into some awesome higher learning establishment.


Anonymous said...

I love what Elizabeth Warren said were the 2 basic fundamental jobs of our government: Aside from keeping us safe, etc.,...she said but probably not word for word,

1. To make sure people get their equal fair share for an honest days work and

2. To protect that fair share from the banks and wall street stealing it away from us.

As a so called civilized country of great wealth we SHOULD take care of our elderly and the children to some extent. If we can't do that then we are not a great country. And limiting anyone's rights or access to basic human needs, women or otherwise, makes us no better than the Taliban.

Great photo by the way!

Nothing would be better in our liftime than to see these GIANT Corporations removed from writing and deciding our Government policies and thus affecting our lives down to the basics, including what we put into our mouths and who will die unnecesarily.

As for the shoot now laws, I'm all for people having the right to their arms but we don't need to give all the nuts a license for mayhem. America is already a shooting gallery. If you track somebody down toting a gun you are looking for trouble. The whole vigillante thing really turns me off. The rest of the civilized world mocks us that we are running all over the globe suppsedly defending "human rights" whilst we're over here shooting at each other daily. It's insanity.

Hello and love to all, mrs p

freeacre said...

That Rosa Koire video was great, RP. Working at the local level for years now, with this "public process" is just exactly what she is talking about. We work and work and prove them wrong, win elections, promote our citizens to positions on planning commissions, etc, etc, and still the bureaucratic misanthropic mutants do what they want anyway. It makes me sick. I could never understand WHY they do this, but, the Agenda 21 and the way it is being adhered to on so many fronts pretty much explains it. It makes me sick.
But, even the Agenda 21 or the teachings on the Georgia Guidestones doesn't seem so bad. I mean a case could be make for it. But, even that is not what is going on when the corporates run the show. Once the souless, heartless, "bottom line", never-ending growth fascist agenda imperatives prevail, and we are totally controlled and exploited, there is no joy, no liberty, no innocence, no dignity or sanctity left.
So, maybe we are like the little rodents living with the dinosaurs and just trying not to not get stepped on whilst waiting for the asteroid to take them all out.
How are you, mrs.p? Whole lot of shakin' going on all around you, eh?

murph said...


Kropotkin is not an easy read for sure. Like most intellectual writers he likes to pound home his points to ad-nausium.

You present the question about wanting power. Essentially, is the desire for power over others the exception or the rule in human affairs? I wish I really had a hard answer for that. All I can really speak to this is from a personal position; I don't have much drive to boss others around at all. Part of that revolves around that I realize that I do not have all the information to ever believe that I will be absolutely right on much of anything and I have no interest in making things harder for other folks by impressing my will on them. It seems to me that the folks that are into power over others have two very particular stances; 1. assurance that they are absolutely right over some decision or point of view, like religious dogma or political ideology. and 2. have an agenda that is to their advantage that they wish to impose. Can be a combination of the two.

Do I think things will change? If I draw from recorded history, then I conclude "no". If I look at personal relationships then "maybe". If I look at the capacity of the human mind to figure out a better way to do things, then "is entirely possible". Big problem I see is what we call "the ego". Folks just don't like to think they have been wrong in their thinking and how they conduct themselves regardless of the information they come in contact with. Not that it doesn't happen, but it appears to be rather rare. What has to happen in a persons mind to come to the conclusion; "Holy christ, I've been wrong about this". All this circles around to the question of "free will". Do we actually have it at all, or is it just rare as hell in human existence? I was under the impression that to be "educated" meant answering those kinds of question rather than "job training".

murph said...

Mrs P,

Our constitution was an attempt to answer the question of what is the rightful role of government. Warren's position is from a more political liberal point of view. One way to look at it.

As to the gun position. I agree that the nuts shouldn't be allowed to run around armed, but preventing it is something else. In the first place, how do we define who is "nuts" and shouldn't have arms. I am absolutely sure that I would be classified as "nuts" by a lot of folks and I sure have a list of folks I would put into that category. The point is, every society has a certain element that is hell bent on harming others by force for whatever reason. The question is; should we have the ability to defend ourselves from them? It is obvious that law enforcement can't stop it, it can only extract retribution for a very high proportion of instances. Originally, in this country, law enforcement were referred to as "peace officers" and they were charged with keeping the peace, not necessarily with enforcing laws. Read a bunch of Louis L'Amour novels to get a feeling for this. A recurring theme in these genre of novels, (if they are research much to begin with) was the individuals ability to protect himself against aggression, sort of a "don't tread on me" approach or the "don't piss down my back and call it rain" kind of thing.

Women throughout history have been especially susceptible to physical aggression particularly by men. Firearms are a great equalizer in such situations and I fully support such and women are as susceptible to being "nuts" as men are.

I would encourage you to take a hard look at real gun statistics, not the propaganda put out by the flaming liberals among us. It might just surprise you concerning how much firearms are used in effective personal protection throughout the world. As for the U.S. being a shooting gallery. Again take a look at the real statistics on this subject.

rockpicker said...

Here's a question that came up at dinner the other night.

If our elected officials, who take oaths to uphold the Constitution, pass laws they know are unconstitutional, should they be arrested and charged with treason?

murph said...


If we wish to live under that social contract, hell yes! Be careful what we wish for though.

rockpicker said...

Here's Hedges on RT discussing the recent NDAA ruling.

Murph; I'll take the Constitution and all its amendments over the corporatocracy any day!

rockpicker said...

I wish Mamma hadn't taken my Kodachrome away...

Anonymous said...


Mrs p, We all love you too. So far I haven't been able to give Elizabeth Warren the hour and a half she needs but I will get around to it. Regarding the nutters with guns thing, towards the end of Bowling for Columbine, Michael Moore clearly says that per capita of the population, there are as many gun owners in Canada as the USA but only a small fraction of the gun related deaths. How much of this is related to temperature and how much to attitude I do not know. I haven't looked it up but there must be figures to compare the gun related fatalities say in Ottawa and Michigan and say Ottawa and Arizona or Nevada. Does anyone have an opinion on this one? In America the nice guys are stuck between the gun toting nutters and the even worse gun toting police. Someone has to be taught a lesson and I thing the best solution is for all of us to join the Taliban. Now are you with me or are you with me?

The police have been militarised so much in America that Posse Commits really doesn't matter anymore. And for that matter what do people do to protect themselves when they no longer trust the police? It must be at least 20 years ago now, there was a small town in England (forgotten which one now) that had so much crime the police didn't go there any more. Citizens complained it was a No Go area for the police and exercised their legal right of patrolling the streets in small numbers day and night. They said that it was not their intention to tackle any wrong doers but to report a crime in action to the police and that they expected an immediate response. They got a lot of TV coverage and the police top brass definitely didn't like it. If this is vigilantiasm then it had the right effect.

There is a women's organisation (forgotten the name now) that has been campaigning for years for the abolition of corporate personhood but as expected they have got nowhere with it.

America, in its geographical sense has been limited and protected by having an ocean on either side of it. China has for as long as anyone can remember, existed as more or less the single unit it is today with defensible borders. It has existed through many great dynasties and civilisations until the present day. In all that time it has never considered welfare for the elderly. The system they had was that it was the childrens' responsibility to look after their parents. A stage has been reached where something must change but I am not sure how it will be played out. China's one child per female policy has failed. It is traditional that sons look after their parents and daughters look after their husband's parents. This policy has left half of the aging population without anyone to care for them. This led to a general genocide against new born daughters with the knock on effect that the sons then could not find wives. The whole thing is a mess and the policy is set to be abandoned with resulting population explosion. Either that or welfare for the elderly.

HSW. If I lived in a place like that I wouldn't want for anything else. It is so tranquil and so beautiful.

freeacre said...

Yeah, while Wizard soaks in his idyllic hot springs, I'm staring out the window at 2 inches of fresh snow. Damn!
(I know, I am whining.)

I sent out an e-mail with a link to Rosa Koire's video to all my friends who are on the Planning Commission and CAG members who went through the Ford Foundation Leadership Training Seminar last year. Now they are going to KNOW that I am a nutjob. Oh well. I just ordered her book, too. I hope everybody who orders books from starts out at Cryptogon's amazon start point, so he gets a piece of the money... I always do.

Anonymous said...

Snow?! Bloody Heck!

We're going to get a bunch of wind and rain from that storm -and hopefully nothing else.

Oh hey, was walking into a "Quiky-Mart" to pay for gas, when this very large woman was charging out of it with these 55 gallon drums of soda (ok, maybe 65 oz.) fuming, "That was the line from 'heck' in there! The line from 'HECK!" Dang, that was one "Storm'in Mormon.'

You know, FA, by ordering that book, you're name probably went to the top of the "NO FLY LIST" with a big red star next to it. In fact, you guys might want to invest in sandbags and some good bonoculars -'cause there might be drones about.

Dang, I wish I could bug-out somewhere -away from our dictators and Fuckyousheema fallout. I wonder how our "Attack Kitties" would like to live in Chile? Hmmm... might have to have a talk with 'em. After I've given them their Kibble, of course.


Anonymous said...

Ooops! That's supposed to be "your" not "you're."

Sorry 'bout that.


freeacre said...

Yeah, Randy, I know. I know. But, wasn't it Martin Luther King who said, "Unless you're willing to die for something, you have never really lived."

Without love, truth and freedom, I'd prefer death to living like a zombie.

By the way, Clif High's latest report on is a mother-load of collapse and doom over the next 6 months. But, it sets the stage for possible transition towards a better life for those left standing. You might want to fit those kitties with little backpacks.

Here's a happy video, for once:On Peaceful Non-compliance!

Hotspringswizard said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hotspringswizard said...

Sats, regarding this you wrote " HSW. If I lived in a place like that I wouldn't want for anything else. It is so tranquil and so beautiful ", Deep Creek is a wonderful stream environment which I have thoroughly enjoyed hiking to since the early eighties :-)

I went there just yesterday to do some more work on the place at creeks edge that I am calling Ori Hotspring. I sent Murph and Freeacre a couple of photos of me soaking in the little temporary hotspring pool I make when I'm there. Its a beautiful spot and there is an Alder tree growing right over the pool, having been bent that way from winter time flooding, a convenient circumstance as it provides shade in the mid day while you soak :-)

If your interested in seeing those two pics you could get them from Murph and Freeacre or I could send them to you also. Just simple pics of a naturist ( me ) spending time in pristine nature at that little hotspring spot :-)

As I was hiking in yesterday carrying a heavy load of some cement and other assorted stuff I was going down a fairly steep dirt hill section when I suddenly hit a slippery spot and I went down quickly and hard. Unfortunately my full weight with the added weight of what I was carrying had me land on my left thigh right against a rough rock that was portruding from the dirt. I was in great pain for a few minutes just laying there holding my leg. I was worried that I might have torn a muscle or even possibly hurt or broke my thigh bone.

I thought that might have ended my hike which had just got started but I pressed on with the days activities while hobbling along with the injury. Today I have a six inch gash on my leg and bruising but am doing much better thankfully than I thought I would be. The family, me and some friends may hike to Ori Hotspring on Sunday :-)

Meanwhile away from the peace and relaxing solitude of the above mentioned outdoor destination the world keeps apace with all of its ongoing and unfolding travails. I am really glad for the RT channel and all the good info that it has to offer as well as that gleaned from the worthy internet sources still available. Good also to check in here to see anything new you guys are noticing on the developing news front.

Well the family and I will be heading up to Yellowstone pretty soon ( mid June roughly ) so I'm looking to connect with Randy, and maybe even Rockpicker if it works out. I'll need some way to contact you both to make plans for that. You can contact me at my e-mail,, or you can call my cell phone which I will have with me, 760-265-0664. I'll post here if I can remember right before we go with the basic timeframe of our trip so you ( Randy, Rockpicker ) will know when we are up in the area.

Cold and windy here today Freeacre. Glad I did my hike to Deep Creek yesterday. The air temp at Ori Hotsprings around mid day was 80 degrees, and Deep Creek was 74, a nice temp for a refreshing dip :-)

Hotspringswizard said...

Scap over at Nina's Blog gave the link to this site a while back. Its titled " Cabin Porn " and shows interesting cabin type dwellings in a variety of differant outdoor environments. Check out one of the latest pics, a very cool floating Lake Cabin in Canada :-)

Anonymous said...

Lysander Spooner lived during the same time period as Kropotkin and shares many of the same ideas. Spooner is much easier to read partly because he tends not to Bloviate as Kropotkin does. Spooner was/is more relevant and respected on most of these same issues.

"Entreprenuer, scholar, radical abolitionist, principled believer in natural law and liberty -- Lysander Spooner is one of the most provocative, eclectic and prolific American legal theorists of the 19th century. His writing continues to influence those today interested in consent, natural law, individual rights, and constitutional order in political theory and practice."

IMO Spooner comes the closest to anyone I have ever read, besides Joel and Cleon Skousen, as to the proper role of government and the authority thereof.


rockpicker said...

46 degrees up here in southwest Montana today. Snow weighting down the lilacs when we arose. Worked all afternoon in rain, and froze...

rockpicker said...

I have a question I've been planning to ask the 'clan' for a long time now, and the Rosa Koire speech reminded me.

When you go downtown in your respective burgs, at the crosswalks, on the corners, look down at the pavement before you cross the street. Are you standing on a concrete pattern of raised dots an inch or so in diameter, in a rectangle maybe six or eight feet by say, four feet? How many have noticed this in their communities?

murph said...


Another writer of the period was Michael Bakunin. Haven't started a book on his writings yet. Next on the list.

The problem I have had with writers like Spooner is they do not denounce the central government, which always becomes corrupted. My impression of them is that all they want is political tweaking of the government for certain ends and agendas.

I agree that Kropotkin bloviates a lot which makes his writings a bit tedious. However, that does not negate his contentions. Spooner was not an anarchist in any sense of the word. My principle interest in Kropotkin is his anarchist principles.

murph said...


I have seen the areas you describe in some larger cities as I was passing through. We have none of anything like that around here that I have seen.

Anonymous said...


Rp, It's not everywhere but I have noticed it in some places, Also in some places there are rows of tiles about a foot square which are made from corrugated concrete. I always assumed these were so folks could keep their footing in the ice and snow and not go skidding out into the traffic. Something else we have over here, North Belgium being as flat as a witches tit (as the saying goes) we have lots of bikes, lots and lots of bikes so there are dedicated cycle lanes in many places. Over 90% of these are in pink coloured tiles to distinguish them from the pavement or wandle pad as it is called here. It always goes like this, roadway, kerb, cycle lane, foot lane.

I saw 46° and thought that is hot then I realised it wasn't. We have had several days up around 80°. This coming week is set to cool off into the 70'S

Off to check out Spooner, thanks Steve.

rockpicker said...

Thanks for the input, guys. I don't mean to suggest that creating a little friction to stop skidding wheelchairs from sailing out into oncoming traffic, or alerting the blind to the whereabouts of the crosswalk is not a splendid idea, it's just that particular concrete stamp showing up all over the western world might offer some indication as to the extent of standardization that is taking place, and concurrent loss of sovereignty. What are the chances of those raised-button patterns appearing spontaneously. We saw them in New York State on our trip last fall.

Here's a video Max Kaiser would be proud of...

Anonymous said...

Steve Said...


Are we reading the same Spooner? I do agree that most all writers of this ilk have an agenda, including Kropotkin. The Spooner that I am talking about says over an over that government in general has no authority at all except by and through the governed. He also likens the government to a band of marauding thieves that kill for control of mankind.

A few quotes if I may....

"That no government, so called, can reasonably be trusted, or reasonably be supposed to have honest purposes in view, any longer than it depends wholly upon voluntary support."

"Our constitutions purport to be established by 'the people,' and, in theory, 'all the people' consent to such government as the constitutions authorize. But this consent of 'the people' exists only in theory. It has no existence in fact. Government is in reality established by the few; and these few assume the consent of all the rest, without any such consent being actually given."

"And the men who loan money to governments, so called, for the purpose of enabling the latter to rob, enslave, and murder their people, are among the greatest villains that the world has ever seen. And they as much deserve to be hunted and killed (if they cannot otherwise be got rid of) as any slave traders, robbers, or pirates that ever lived."

"The principle that the majority have a right to rule the minority, practically resolves all government into a mere contest between two bodies of men, as to which of them shall be masters, and which of them slaves; a contest, that -- however bloody -- can, in the nature of things, never be finally closed, so long as man refuses to be a slave."

If you had ever truly "read" Spooner then you will know he is a total anarchist when it comes to corrupt governments and always denounces them at ever turn.

If people have true free will and are allowed to live by their conscience, most people would be anarchists by their very nature. There will always be psychopaths that will find a way to throw a wrench in the works but for the vast majority of us, we need very little if any government. Just teach people correct principles and let them govern themselves.


murph said...


I will admit that i have only a slight familiarity with Spooner. Your quotes are completely unfamiliar to me and was from some time ago and I do not remember anything concerning anarchism from him. This is interesting. I will put him on my reading list to look at again.

Your last sentence I have great appreciation for.

rockpicker said...

I love it when reality bites the LIARS in the ass!

Anonymous said...

I have to agree with what you said Murph. Yet the "shoot first" laws are so vunerable to abuse. And for sure they would not apply to any of us protecting ourselves against the so called peace officers. I always thought shoot first was great if the body was in your house, on your property etc. Can't site any cases from back in the day when they said you had to drag em in your house for it to be "self defense".

States that are passing the "Shoot First" laws are aiming at a whole different target. That to me is creepy and backwards. Those laws are whacked.

Not passing a shoot first law will not take away your gun, fortunately. If I have to go down the street looking for a man so I can shoot him then I'm up to no good. Put him in my house and his butt is gonna be toast! or something like that. Silly me.

Still I agree less gov is better but who is the government? It's the corporations running everything; they are the government. There's hardly any gov left actually. I don't like it.

Maybe I should start a radical new women's movement where only women have all the power. Sorry Murph Just kidding. It's my alter ego talking to me.

Nutty people are the ones who say they hear voices talking to them in their head. I don't think you would fall into that category. You are obviously a sensible sensitive thinking reading man. We need more like you. Love to you both up there. x, mrs p

murph said...

Mrs P,

The issue of civilian ownership and use of guns has been going on for my entire lifetime.

I lived all over Michigan until I was 25. During that time the laws on gun ownership were very harsh and restrictive. Use of guns for self defense was considered almost never justified. I personally knew of two instances where a home invasion took place and the invader was shot. The homeowners were jailed. Since then, Michigan has radically changed its laws on this. They now have a stand your ground law.

Now personally, I simply do not understand how any sane person can say you do not have the right to defend yourself, even with deadly force, nor have the right or obligation to protect others from assault. Instances where people have witnessed violent crime and did nothing to interfere come to the fore quite periodically. In our society, women are the most prone to these assaults, either in or out of the home, and from their spouse,relative, boyfriend or strangers.

I sure know that I am unable to stand up to some 20 something year old 250 lb aggressor hell bent on doing me harm. I would need an equalizer which the cops can't supply through my tax dollars.

Anonymous said...

this just in, welcome to montana


murph said...


I remember reading on alternative news sites a few years ago that there were over 40,000 foreign troops stationed at various locations around the US. The speculation at the time was that they were here exactly for the reason mentioned in that link, to confiscate weapons from civilians, probably also gold and silver, since US troops might be reluctant to do the bidding of the PTB. It might even turn out to be a bit dangerous too.

Historically, confiscation of civilian weapons is the first requirement to establishing a dictatorial power in a country. Has happened many times. If that is going to happen, I ponder on how much resistance the civilian population will put up. Maintaining real freedom for a society is indeed a risky business at the personal level. The push for a world government and world controlled economic system is proceeding. When will the citizenry come to the conclusion "enough of this". Hard times a coming.

rockpicker said...

Camaleon; I take your bit of news with keen interest, and I wonder how such a plan will be implemented.

Firstly, the Feds will have to provide some excuse to act contrary to the Constitution. Granted, most populations here will accept almost anything they're told by authority, but you have to tell them 'something.' You can't just start going door-to-door without some plausible excuse, no matter how lame. If you try that approach, better cut all communications, because when word gets out that this is happening, I guarantee you resistance is going to grow exponentially.

So, if communications are cut, meaning no radio, no tv, no telephone--how do you explain that one? CME? Nuclear attack in the upper atmosphere that takes out the nation's grid?

Okay. But now we're talking about a national event, which, of course, it has to be. You can't just take away the guns of the people of one state. If you're actually ballsy enough to attempt it at all, you have to go for the entire enchilada. Even a regional approach is too narrow to succeed, as plausibility will still be necessary.

Here's what I would do. I would use my obedient boot-licking media to convince the country that terrorists have taken out the grid, along with refineries in the Gulf Coast states, and all power is off indefinitely, for who-knows-how-long? Likewise, the supplies of diesel will have to be rationed, meaning you can expect interruptions in food transportation, possibly long-term cessation of deliveries.

At this point, you've said everything you need to say. The rest, the victims can fill in for themselves. Those who still have a few gray cells will be able to discern the situation. The rest will catch on soon enough.

Without electricity, the fridge and freezer rot. Many won't have running water. Toilets won't flush.

Without diesel, trucks won't be delivering food to the grocery stores, which will be emptied in a matter of hours or days.

Within two weeks, most people will be ready to 'get on the bus,' when that ultimatum is offered. And they won't be allowed guns in their 'carry-on.'

Anonymous said...

depends what the aim is ;)

Remove the guns, or remove "too many people" ?

If you want to reduce "too many people" and control the rest, increase immigration, set everyone against everyone, make groups of "tewerwists" to start race/religious/civil war let them do the job for themselves, control the supply of ammo to control the speed of deaths.
Then, when there are not so many people to deal with, and hardly any ammo left, declare it was so bad because everyone was armed, make guns illegal, have a gun amnesty, send detractors to the camps for disposal/re-education.


Anonymous said...


Murph GD Sounds about right to me.

Here is a Google search page, take your pick out of any of this lot.

Here is an e mail Montana freeman recently sent to me:-

Interesting slant on things



  world's largest army... America's hunters!
I had never thought about 


A blogger 

  added up the deer license sales
in just a 

  handful of states and
arrived at a striking 



  were over 600,000 hunters
this season 

  in the state of Wisconsin .
Allow me to restate that number: 


Over the last 

  several months,
Wisconsin's hunters 

became the eighth largest army in 

  the world.


  men under arms than in Iran .

More than 

  France and Germany combined.

These men 

deployed to 

  the woods of a single American state,

to hunt with 

  firearms, and
no one was killed.


  number pales in comparison to the 750,000
who hunted the woods of Pennsylvania and
700,000 hunters, 

all of whom 

  have now returned home safely.
Toss in a quarter million hunters 

  in West Virginia
and it literally establishes 

  the fact
that the 

  hunters of those four states alone

  comprise the largest army in the world.
And then add 

  in the total number of hunters
in the other 

  46 states.
It's millions more.



America will forever be safe
from foreign 

with that 

  kind of


it's not just 

  a way to fill the freezer.
It's a matter 



That's why all enemies, 

foreign and 

want to see us 


Food for thought,
when next we 

  consider gun control.

Have A Great 

Overall it's true, 

so if we 

  disregard some assumptions
that hunters 

  don't possess the same skills as soldiers,
the question 

  would still remain...
what army of 

  2 million
would want 

  to face
30, 40, 

  50 million armed citizens, add to that many of us have enough guns to arm many more if need be.

Last Monday we had a national holiday in Belgium. The local supermarket was open for four hours in the morning and Chris asked me to go for some cold drinks. There were only about half a dozen trollies left from about a thirty yard double line. Inside there were nine checkouts open and the queues were halfway down the aisles. I said to another shopper “ It looks like war has been declared”. They smiled but for me it was not a joke.

rockpicker said...

SATS; I read that piece you quoted, and offered my comment with that in mind. Even if there are a lot of guns in private hands, it takes organization and reliable communications to turn an armed mob into an effective resistance force.

Communications is a vital consideration, and for the most part, we've already lost it. After all, what good is contact without security? And aren't all the normal modes already compromised? Telephones bugged, e-mail read, even our computers can spy on us. How would one pocket of resistance coordinate with others without secure lines? Radio won't be secure. Word of mouth, smoke signals, horse and rider? If that problem is not solved, resistance is futile.

As for the ammo thing, that's already been done, and nothing happened. After Obama was elected, you couldn't get several sizes of ammunition in many local outlets. Reasons for the shortage varied from a run on gun buying to government control. But we're still heavily armed, as a nation, and the preppers, at least, have stockpiled some? ammo.

Ideally, for the military, the best case scenario would be to disarm the public without declaring open warfare. How to accomplish this might be a good question for Sun-Tzu.

Anonymous said...


Sorry for the crazy formatting in my last comment, it is just the way it flopped out in blogger.

Many years ago, I worked with a couple of guys who were doing import export. At the time mobile (cell) phones were just becoming popular amongst the public at large. These guys received an enquiry from a middle east country for thousands of walkie talkies. These guys were laughing saying “Are these Arabs living in the stone age” but it turns out the Arabs knew a thing or two we didn't. Perhaps Murph could address the question of how any organised resistance could achieve a chain of command without a hierarchy. It seems to me it is too late to instigate a traditional resistance type closed cell structure which makes infiltration extremely difficult.

rockpicker said...

SATS; Range is the problem with walkie talkies. There isn't much. CB's same thing, to a lesser degree. And those bands will be monitored.

Here in Virginia City, a couple of years ago, there was a guy who knew radio inside and out. He was explaining how we could put up a repeater on the mountain above town, run it off a solar panel and have it able to send messages periodically that would keep us all informed, since we live within a twenty or thirty mile radius of town. He figured the unit he was talking about would send at least eighty miles. It would repeat the same message until the message was changed, so it must have had recording capacity. We never put it together, anyway.

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