Monday, June 4, 2012


Meet Jake

Meet Ellie

Since the loss of our dog Brie, we have had a bit of emptiness around our place. So, we decided to introduce a bit of chaos back into our lives in the form of two puppies. Whew, what a hand full. We have concluded it is much easier to house break one pup, and not so easy to train two at the same time.

From Murph

Every day, when I scan through multiple news sites and commentaries I am again impressed with our capacity to endure an every increasing amount of problems that keep arising. Chief among these problems is the energy supply in the form of hydrocarbons.

Even though I talk of it frequently, I still, at times, feel that I do not have a real handle on the energy problems and their full implication. It sure enough appears to me that most of the easily accessible hydrocarbons have been extracted. While improved technology has so far supported more expensive extraction processes, there will still be a limit. There is always a limit. Exactly where that limit will be and it’s impact is under intense debate. The abiotic oil folks are adamant about limitless oil availability and yet are not able to answer what appears to me as crucial questions concerning its extraction if abiotic production is indeed a fact, which appears to me to be a tenuous platform to begin with. I read that there is limitless oil being produced all the time from deep in the core of the earth. If this is true, then how come the earth is not covered with oil at its surface? After all, this process has been going on for how long? After millions of years, it would sure seem to me that all that migrating oil toward the surface should be really the dominating liquid of the planet and that is obviously not true. So, even if abiotic oil is a fact, it also appears to me that it also has a limit and its replenishment rate is rather slow, like millennium slow. So, they talk about drilling 5-10-15 miles beneath the surface to tap those pools. That is a very expensive endeavor and despite advancing technology for well drilling, will increase the cost of extraction.

The folks ginning up the oil sands and oil shale extraction don’t seem to recognize that there is an energy-in energy-out ratio that is nearly at par. Even with advances of the technical problems with this extraction, we would have to make some pretty wild leaps in technology to make it economically viable. Without government subsidization of the energy sector, sand and shale extraction is a totally losing endeavor from an economic standpoint. The same can be said about off shore drilling. This of course does not include the extreme environmental degradation from these sources.

It sure appears to me that the data indicates that conventional production of oil is declining. Drilling more holes and extracting more liquid crude has just about had its day. Those big pools of oil are becoming less productive year over year, indicating that the pools are running dry, or at least of low enough extraction as to be non profitable.

If my assertions are any where near reality, our society is living in an extreme position of denial. Somewhere down the time road, total energy extraction will become untenable, costing more in energy extraction than can be realized in benefit.

The implications of this, I think, are enormous. Food production is the final setting for oil depletion. We have numerous examples of attempts at reducing the use of hydrocarbons in producing food. I recently had an interesting web site sent to me.
This 40 minute film is an British farmer’s explorations into the use of hydrocarbons to produce food from a permaculture standpoint. Toward the end of the film, they briefly explore what food production would look like without the use of hydrocarbons. That is, back to pre 1900’s farming. It is labor intensive to say the least and the film points out that the farming community is ill prepared to go back to animal power to produce food. And this does not even touch on how to put up a distribution system for the food produced with no, or very limited, hydrocarbons. The film asserts that with very different concepts of farming, that it is possible to feed 10 people per acre. That means that for the population of the US, it would take 35 million acres of this methodology to feed the present population if we all went primarily to vegetarianism and very little meat products. Here is some interesting data
This site asserts that there is only 349 million acres that is planted in crops and most of that is to produce feed for meat production.

The next question I ask is how much of that land could produce food with vastly reduced use of hydrocarbons? Actually, very little of it. Most of the land used for agriculture has been literally killed for biodiversity and non-hydrocarbon farming and this is the result of factory farming and monoculture farming, GMO crops along with government subsidies. And this does not even start to address the quality of food produced by these methods. It also does not address the irrigation aspect and how water is also becoming a big problem. Along with climate changes and some real dire predictions on how that is going to change food production we have a very serious problem that is not being addressed.

In other words, we have a food crisis staring us in the face somewhere down the road. And this is just our country and the crisis is even worse for other countries that are being drastically affected by climate changes. It appears to me that the production of food to feed populations might possibly become a very real problem before long. It already is showing some cracks and I expect them to get worse.

Of course, we can expect that the solutions that will be advanced will be more of the same practices but on an even larger scale, which appear to me to be self-defeating and will end badly. That is, large population die-off simply due to non-availability of food, and/or food that is so adulterated as to cause premature deaths of much of our population.

I would suppose that with enough time, humans might very well be able to physiologically adapt to this food adulteration, but I suspect there won’t be enough time for that to happen. That kind of adaptability takes rather long lengths of time to accomplish. Even if we had a national policy to begin change over to a more sustainable method of food production right now, the amount of time it would take to make the land viable again would be measured in decades, not even multiple years. A great deal of our farmland has literally been poisoned to death by modern agricultural practices and it will take considerable time to reverse that. I do not see any national inclination to even begin to talk about it. The political hold that big agricultural concerns have on the government is an iron fist at this time.

I expect to see a push to put even more land into factory production of food to be initiated, thus destroying even more whole ecosystems. Even reinstitution of a victory garden on a mass scale is not going to solve this problem. During WWII the victory garden is credited with nearly 40% of the food supply. It would not be enough today if you could sell the concept on a social wide basis. All of the experimenting with organic/alternative/permaculture will not work without a national policy and support, and is not going to make a dent in this problem, and even if it was tried, the fight with big ag businesses would be fierce and protracted. From my perspective and information, any change should have been started many years ago and I don’t see it taking place in any near future.

On a personal basis, the backyard/frontyard production of food is about our only alternative and that has a whole host of problems in and of itself, Zoning laws, being only one obstacle. Land use descriptions are another.

In our area, I have frequently made descriptions concerning the problem with home based food production; quality of land for growing and climate being the big ones. Another problem that is showing up right now is land contamination with herbicide use. One of our local big time self-sufficiency gardeners has suddenly run up on this big time. Our soil has to have soil amendments, and the most economically means of doing this is animal manure. Herbicides have shown up in her garden and she is strictly an organic gardener. Now our area has a lot of horse folks so there is lots of horse manure available. Problem is, to be able to take your horses to other areas, you have to have certification that your animals are fed weed free hay. In order to have weed free hay, you have to buy or produce hay that is heavily contaminated with herbicides, principally for our area, is Milestone, made by Dow chemical Co. The aminopyrolids (one of the chemicals in the herbicides) taken in by the animal, among other consequences, is excreted in the manure. If that manure is used for soil amendments, it kills broadleaf garden plants, which comprise most of the edible food produced in a garden. Its life span under ideal situations is about 5 years in the soil. Testing for and removal is quite expensive. Soil tests for it run about $250 bucks a whack, although, if you want to take the time and effort, you can determine it for yourself. Plant some seeds in a cup with the suspected soil. When the seeds sprout, and grows above the soil, if the leaves curl up and in, it is probably contaminated with aminopyrolids or even some other chemical soup. The curling of the leaves is the result of interruption of normal hormonal metabolism of the plant, how most of the herbicides work.

All of this does not address the contamination of soil and surface water with aluminum particulates from aerial spraying, that is still being denied by the government and a large amount of the general population as being conspiracy theory. Interesting how Monsanto is applying for GM seed release that is supposedly impervious to aluminum contamination.

I have to conclude that food is going to be the next really big emergency, and probably in our lifetimes. I wish I had some hard answers to this problem but I don’t and the permaculture advocates are only a partial answer and I doubt that we will have enough time to solve this problem before the crisis is upon us anyway. It takes a lot of effort and time to grow your own food needs. Most folks are simply unwilling to go to that amount of effort. We work at it, but we still have to supplement our food from the store. City folks are in a real bind and suburban folks are hindered by regulations. In the more rural areas, land use laws can be a very real impediment. We have them here too. Homeowners associations are also a biggie for stopping individual food production. It is such a complex problem with no real governmental will to alleviate these problems that I become despairing of it being solved. Maybe the reason there is no effort to solve these problems is because there is an agenda to not do so. By appearance alone, I can subscribe to that conspiracy.

All we can do is continue to do the best we can.


Anonymous said...

"All we can do is continue to do the best we can"

Yes, that about sums it up for me too Murph. I have not viewed nor read the articles yet, but will.

When I was a young boy in the early 1950's, I remember walking alongside my grandfather while he plowed his field with two mules. He was around 75 at the time. I don't recall how many acres he owned then, but he had a very large field of various crops and an orchard of nut trees. He and an uncle who lived with him too, had a couple of beef cows, chickens and a couple of pigs. I was told at one time he owned 100 acres but gradually sold some off and must of had at least 25 to 50 acres left for the size of operation they had.

They did NOT use any chemical fertilizers at all! They used what came from the animals. When the crops came in, family members would gather and all sorts of picking, cleaning and canning was done. Each family would leave with a good supply of put up food for the coming year.

It was hard work and even today on our small operation, I find it's hard at times, but a good sort of hard. I do not have acreage like my grandfather had either.

 I don't know what the answers are and I do not believe any one thing is the cure. I believe it will take many different applications to work. I for instance make my own compost, we recycle everything, I mean EVERYTHING! I add comfrey and nettle leaves and make juice from those plants as well. I do make a complete organic fertilizer following Steve Solomons recepie and add this to my soil. I have been making and adding biochar to my compost for the last four years too. We have been having good results with our crops and some last well into the next growing season and longer. We just do not have the room to grow everything we need and some things we cannot grow here at all.

We have begun to trade for some things with other folks we know and this helps a little. I suppose when things tighten up, we will do more barter.

I have been reading and watching videos of Joel Salatin and believe he is on the right path. He has some good ideas and an operation to show for it.


murph said...


I like your comment. It is a cool evaluation.

For those interested, there are 3 essays by Michael Crichton that have a lot to say. See if you can spot his contradictions and defense of positions that are unsubstantiated.

Very interesting articles overall.

Anonymous said...

Murph, I have seen that video before and enjoyed it very much. Reminded me of spending much time at my grandfathers place.

The article is right on. Two years ago my wife and I visited her family farm north of Iowa City, Iowa. They have 500 acres, first homesteaded in 1846. Five generations have lived on the place.

 While there, I always go out and look at the crop/crops, which is either corn, soybeans or wheat. I also grab a hand full of soil, look at it, smell it and then drop it back. No earthy smell, no life to it. It's been sprayed to death. I watched the neighbor farmer who leases the land to harvest it. They were planting wheat at that time. As I watched them cultivate the soil, I noticed that there were no birds following along behind looking for worms that had been exposed from the turing of earth. There wasn't  any! Dead soil, no life, except chemical poisons to make things grow. Such a difference from the soil on my grandfathers place.

Here is an interview of Joel Salatin and he explains about the life in soil. Like I said before, I believe he is right on. He gets it.

Those pups are cute by the way. What are they?


Anonymous said...

In our travels in the west, we have seen mostly land devoted to hay for animals. We know farmers in eastern Washington who have thousand acre farms growing wheat. In the mid-west it's corn, soybeans or wheat.

If this land were converted to growing real human food, I believe the nation could make it just fine. The practice of conserving water would be another thing too. Here, we harvest rain water for our gardens/crops. I would like to get up to 10,000 gallons but I don't have the room. I do have 3,500 gallons saved and this is my capacity for now.

I believe the nation will have to return to an agrarian society again, more than we have now. Even using animal power. Just look over near you Murph, Lynn Miller of Small Farmers Journal. His group teaches classes on using animals for farming. He is in Sisters, Oregon.

Like I said before, it's hard work, but I believe it can be done. I'm willing to. Speaking of food, did you catch the HBO special on a couple of weeks ago? We have no tvee, but got it off the net. It's title is "Weight of the Nation". Shows where we are and headed as a nation. Sad shape that's for sure. It's the non food that's killing people and the young are not immuned.


murph said...


I'd really like to meet you some day. lol, love your observations.

Joe Salatin is one of my heroes for sustainable farming methods. Very down to earth guy. I fear for his ability to continue due to the opposition by big ag concerns. For that matter, those concerns are putting in effort to stop all non big ag production of food.

I have mentioned in previous posts about when I lived in the middle of a corn field in Iowa. The land was literally sterile. If you stepped away from those fields the land again became alive.

My concern about using the land devoted to animal feed and converting it to actual human food is the contamination of the soil. Those huge fields of wheat, soybeans and corn are on heavily contaminated land due to herbicide use demanded by GM crops and the push to have weed free fields. The information I have been looking at indicates that there is no way in the near future those lands can be converted to healthy human food production. Way too much contamination of the soil from herbicides and pesticides, which take at least 5 years to be broken down enough to allow broad leaf plants to grow. I guess that is where Monsanto comes in, developing GM broad leaf plants plants that will tolerate that environment, like their aluminum resistant GM stuff.

Way back in the 70's there were write ups in Mother Earth News about family farms that did not use modern mechanical means of farming. Back then, they were considered radical extremists. Only the radical organic folks appreciate that effort today too and big agricultural concerns are trying to wipe out that effort.

Haven't seen "Weight of the Nation". Will try and make time to see it. About the only TV we look at is the evening news and that is from the CCTV channel, an entirely different perspective on what is happening around us. Even so, they are also not dealing with this agriculture issue.

I imagine folks around our neck of the woods are getting damned tired of my ranting on the subject. I simply can't leave it alone. I view what Monsanto and Dow and other companies are doing as evil SOB's. That our government and society tolerates them distresses me greatly.

rockpicker said...

Murph, Bexar; I pretty much concur with both of what you are saying.

I think the Russians are growing almost 50 per cent of their food on small, organic farms, as of last year, if my memory serves, so it could be done, if there was the will.

Cuba met its 'peak oil' crisis by moving lots of people into the countryside and getting everyone, rural or urban, involved with vegetable production. We could and should too.

(Did a double take on your last response, Murph. First time through, I read it "Joe Stalin in one of my heroes..." Say, what?)

Nothing would do us more good, as a nation, than to get people back onto the land and back into low-impact, intensive and sustainable agriculture. The UN and central governments in the West oppose this direction, and they are implementing their will on the local level. Also, there is the issue of private property rights, a mighty hurdle to clear, when discussing redistribution of human populations within the framework of democratic self-governance.

My sense is that we are about out of time for philosophy. Time now to get seeds and starts in the ground. Be diligent. Be aware. Pray for rain, but no hail. No frost. Hope for the best. Stock-up as much as you can. Hope mycelium can reclaim the tainted ground at some later date.

As for the political scene, I have no hopetimism left...

rockpicker said...

Since we're on the subject of farming and 'the gov'mint,' check out this story Steve Quayle posted as an alert today. Honestly!

murph said...

Here is an essay that I find astounding in its assertions.

Anonymous said...

Another great post, Murph.

I'd like to ask an abiotic oil or shale oil (snake oil) person why we've built this massive oil import bizz (super tankers, propping-up ruthless oil Monarchies) if the oil is being "manufactured" or sitting right under our feet, ready to be extracted.

We had a "Birthday-Bash Bubba-Q" this weekend (Wifeepoo's birthday) and I got to show-off my small Victory Garden to a few of her friends and her brother/my brother-in-law did some pondering while I was fretting over the scrawny melon plants in the corner, "You know, it would be pretty hard to feed yourself with something this small." I'm like, "Duh -no shit Sherlock." No, I didn't say that, but I thought about saying that.

My brother-n-law is super-smart, but very naive. I think that he, along with the majority of people in this country (like 99.9&) think that the supermarkets will provide massive quantities of delicious fresh food for Murikans -FOREVER. He and most people I know believe that technology will save us from anything like a real, crippling oil or food crisis. I mean, when the majority of Murikans don't question things, watch "
reality" TV shows, listen to the infotainment of the MSM via iPod, iPad, iPOOP, then this type of thinking is common. BTW, he showed me his New iPad -and jeez, this this in pretty darn cool Sorta. So, I guess if you look at an iPad and are amazed at what it can do with a touch of your middle finger, then it's no wonder that the "technology will fix everything" mentality is a permanant fixation on the sheeple's pscheee.

Which means, any real crisis, like a food, water or energy event that slaps our colletive asses hard, might shock the majority of these techno-worhipers into a zombie-like coma.

And you know what that means, right? Right.


(just thought I'd throw that in)

Later -


murph said...


I come across the techno worshipers all the time. Generally but not restricted to the younger folks of 40's or less. While technology has the potential to solve a lot of problems, it cannot solve them all, and we have the potential for a bunch of predicaments with no solution at all coming at us. Poisoned growing land is so severe that I see no possibility of a techno fix, only a long stretch of time will solve that one. Severe radiation from a variety of sources is another. Unless of course you are a billionaire and can pay for underground living for a few thousand years. Severe cosmic events have no techno fix at all.

For the most part, technology has played a major role in pollution, poisoning the environment, downgrading a good part of living, economic disasters, and supplying all kinds of convenience items and toys. Depending on technology as a fix for everything that ails us is a non starter despite Startreck movies.

LOL yup we are totally doomed.

rockpicker said...

Murph; I had to go look up this Tambov rebellion, as I initially confused the event with with what Stalin later did in Ukraine. Here's what wiki says concerning the background of the Tambov rebellion:


The rebellion was caused by the forced confiscation of grain by the Bolshevik authorities, a policy known in Russian as "prodrazvyorstka". In 1920 the requisitions were increased from 18 million to 27 million poods in the region. This caused the peasants to reduce their grain production knowing that anything they did not consume themselves would be immediately confiscated. Filling the state quotas meant death for many by starvation.[2] The revolt began on 19 August 1920 in a small town of Khitrovo where a military requisitioning detachment of the Red Army appropriated everything they could and "beat up elderly men of seventy in full view of the public".[2] The peasant army was known as the Antonovtsi or "Blue Army", as opposed to the "White Army" (anti-communist army), "Red Army" (communist army), "Green Army" (armed peasant groups) and "Black Army" (anarchists of Ukraine and Russia)—all taking part in the Civil War.

A distinctive feature of this rebellion, among the many of these times, was that it was led by a political organization, the Union of Toiling Peasants (Soyuz Trudovogo Krestyanstva). A Congress of Tambov rebels abolished Soviet power and created a Constituent Assembly that called for universal suffrage and land reform. A major tenet proposed by them was returning all land to the peasants.[1]

On February 2, 1921, the Communist leadership announced the end of the "prodrazvyorstka", and issued a special decree directed at peasants from the region implementing the "prodnalog" policy. The new policy was essentially a tax on grain and other foodstuffs. This was done prior to the X Party Congress, where the measure was officially adopted. The announcement began circulating in the Tambov area on February 9, 1921. The Tambov uprising and unrest elsewhere were significant reasons that the "prodnalog" policy was implemented and the "prodrazvyorstka" was abandoned."

In the comments below the zerohedge article, there is discussion of the futility of civil war, with an obvious comparison between now and what happened here in 1860.

But, if you think about it, the situation today is markedly different.

That war was a war between the states, each side with its strengths and weaknesses.

Today, I see solid, blanket mistrust and disgust among ALL the states against Washington, with allegiance towards the central government ill-defined. It's just not clear who would end up on which side of the line, were the line drawn in the sand today.

I liked Lucky Guesst"s viewpoint. Grow a garden, buy ammunition, live free or die.

(Come to think of it, I doubt lines would follow state borders, and standing battlelines would almost certainly not materialize.)

Anonymous said...


This is a post that tackles the difficult questions and shows that there are no easy answers. I must say that I liked Bexar's contribution too.

Our old friend Newton told us that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. We have had the action of 250 years of oil. Now the informed amongst us are waiting for the equal and opposite reaction.

Geologists tell us that many millions of years ago all the land mass of the Earth existed as one continent which was 'relatively' flat . Turbulence from under the surface caused the crust to break up and drift apart. As North and South America moved west the leading edge rucked up and formed the great mountain ranges which we call the Rockies and the Andes. The Himalayas were formed as India broke off Antarctica and slammed into Asia. Over the millions of years since, there has been partial erosion. Great rivers have caused flood plains and all of these changes have altered the climate. Overall the recent advent of humans have accepted the the situation they have inherited and learned to adapt to the changes which have occurred in the meantime. For instance, millions still choose to live in the Ganges delta even though it regularly floods causing many thousands of deaths. The point of this is that unless seven billion people revert to hunting and gathering, assuming there is enough to hunt and gather, the humans that are left are going to be dependent on some form of energy. If part of this is derived by wind generators and these alter the climate, that is something that we are just going to have to deal with and adapt to. There is no such thing as a free lunch. We have eaten the food and now it is time to pay the bill. Unless any of these siphoning energy from the universe devices can be proved to be viable then we are going to have to pay a price and it doesn't matter whether we call it reaction and reaction or giving and taking away there will be consequences bundled with the benefits.

It should be remembered that to be sustainable any new wind generator or solar panel must be produced from one that has been previously made so the useful energy from any of these devices must have the energy of producing a new one subtracted from its lifetime output.

I also cannot call the abiotic oil argument. I have heard it said abiotic oil is found below tectonic plate boundaries. If this is so then it must be possible to detect oil residues in the lower vents of volcanoes. Does anybody know if such residues have been found.

Professor Albert Bartlet is on the lecture circuit giving a talk on the lifetime of the worlds known oil reserves. Like others, he claims that the process of converting shale oil is not energetically viable but here is the point. If it was, then all the worlds known deposits would only extend oils lifetime by two years.

Anonymous said...


Rockpicker has mentioned Cuba. Maybe somebody could write a comment or short post on how they coped with a sudden reduction of its oil supplies. I know for instance that they elevated the status of farmers to that of professional people like doctors or architects but I am hazy on most of the details.

A department within our local authority is running a domestic energy efficiency initiative. I think it is a good thing in principle and last week we had a visit from the energy inspector. He inspected the central heating boiler and stuck a smoke detector in our small hallway then placed foam backed aluminium foil behind radiators on outside walls. Her gave us five energy saving lamps which I accepted gracefully although I did point out that since these are much more expensive than normal hot filament bulbs, you are actually paying for the savings out front. Also there was the lady in America who broke one of the new type lamps and it cost her $2000 to have a clean up team remove the mercury vapour from her house. However the thing that really horrified him was that a family of two in a one bedroom flat had three deep freezers:-) Two of them are small and attached to fridges, one for food and one for drinks. The other is the smallest chest freezer it is possible to buy. I did take his point about the price of running three motors but because our place is small we haven't got much of a choice. And come the day we will be lasting out a bit longer than those around us.

You guys will never replace Brie but it is good to know you have some new company around the place. They sure look cute. I guess it is come clean time and tell you something I have been holding back. We also have a new pooch, as well as, not in place of. For me a real dog is one size down from a Shetland pony. A dog of choice for me would be a Samoyed reindeer herder or a newfy. In such a small place and with wifey being a little bit disabled we have a malteser / Tibetan terrier. The new one is a papilon vlinders hond (butterfly dog). This is a dwarf spaniel with large sticky up ears and is mainly black and white, sure is cute too. I will try to send a photo over.


rockpicker said...

SATS; Here's a link to a film that covers how Cuba dealt with its peak oil crisis.

rockpicker said...

Brasscheck remembers the Liberty.

rockpicker said...

Yay! for James Corbett! This one's a good one!

murph said...


Yup, lets really hope that the population gets this and understands it.

rockpicker said...

Embedded in this addendum is a link to the original post, called 'ticks of time'. Got popcorn?

Anonymous said...

Great OP Murph. I doubt they will go after Joel Salatin, his fame has travelled the world now, they couldn't handle the backlash! Anyone who can grow 18" of topsoil in 6 yrs is my hero, same goes for lots of folks IMO. He's coming to the UK for a RegenAg course Nov this yr, hope I can make it, more to the point I hope I can afford to attend it!

The Abiotic argument is logically defunct, if the Earth has been making 30billion barrels of oil a yr, since the Earth is 4.5 billion yrs old, logically we'd be swimming in the stuff.


freeacre said...

I am getting seriously worried about this growing season. We planted outside when while we had a brief warm up. Then, it turned cold again and rained. At least a couple of weeks have passed, and hardly anything has come up. Tonight the forecast is for SNOW. Gaaaah! Murph has been lighting a fire in one of the greenhouses, but even there the pole beans are in suspended animation. What a bitch.
Congrats on the new puppy, Spirit! The little guys are very cute and endearing. Very different from Brie in temperament. But they are smart and should be good guard dogs.

It seems to me that we are, indeed, in the Kali Yuga cycle of disintegration - hopefully giving way to a new and better reality. Politics seems hopeless, tapeworm economics, desperate people all over the place and the news is all about celebrity fashion malfunction or some such drivel.

I have a feeling that a lot is caused by people having no sense of how important it is to keep one's word. We betray ourselves and each other when we don't place importance in keeping our word. We can't trust the media, the government, the police, and on and on. The TV shows (I imagine) portraying people lying all the time. The anxiety it causes is a basis for "humor" which isn't funny. If, indeed, our words are powerful and help to create our reality, then when our collective creation is based on lies, no wonder everything has turned to crap.
This campfire is the one place I know that people speak from their hearts and honesty prevails. I am so grateful to all of you for that.

murph said...


Your assumption about Joel Salatin I don't think is founded on the reality of what the elite will do if their incomes are threatened too much. We read nearly every day of the deaths of prominent folks under very suspicious circumstances. Whistle blowers being the majority right now.

Yup Salatin is my hero for sustainable agriculture too.

Have you see the documentary called "The Real Dirt On Farmer John"? Pretty neat film.

rockpicker said...

Before NATO pulls off another Libya, we should all be aware of what's really going on in Syria.

Anonymous said...

Very few people seem to believe any of this (food as oil, declining supplies of food or even oil, the need to grow your own or to seriously prepare for the future).

I "sit" in a unique position because of the company I run. It does not make me an expert, just more in tune with what people seem to think, and probably more evidently, how they are acting (preparing for the future). Which is to say for the most part, they're not. They're not doing much of anything, a strong indication that they really do not believe in the points mentioned above.

A few thousand have made some preparations, but compare this figure to the population of this country. I've said many times before, not even 1/10 of 1% is truly even "trying" to prepare. That would be 3,000,000 if I do my math right. There is NO WAY that we are even close to this number as a representation of people truly trying to prepare.

Growing your own food takes years and years of experience (more then just a simple garden). Skill, experience, soil, water, climate and gobs of practice will allow you to produce a small percentage of the necessary calories you will need.

Using a very conservative figure of 2400 calories per day (inadequate actually for hard physical labor), you need 876,000 calories consumed (per person). Garden waste accounts for 20% - 30% loss, 10% - 15% loss from processing waste. Now factor in your losses from insects, rodents, disease, pestilence and unknown (my own experience ranges from 30% to as high as 100% on any given crop). There is also storage loss (improper storage or pests) to consider.

Actual calories produced, from garden to table then becomes an "iffy" proposition of complete sufficiency. You should get something from all your efforts, but regarding adequate nutrition, you probably get far, far less then you think. I've yet to find anyone anywhere that actually grows all of their own food (not a single person in years of looking). This is also true for those who claimed they "live off the land", nobody is really doing this without outside imports of food and oil energy.

I'm not an expert gardener, but am building a large greenhouse. Even with this however, I expect to produce less then 50% of the food stuffs I will need to survive, even with aquaphonics installed and functioning. Losses will account for as much as 45% - 60%, and some years it could be truly disastrous if things go badly (definitely possible).

Last years garden was very successful -- but it still produced less then an actual 1 month food supply (calories and meals). (continued)

Anonymous said...

Despite sharing this information, and how truly difficult it then becomes to properly ready oneself or family and prepare, very few people still seem to "get it" despite the incredible volume of information available now on how fast it's all falling apart.

I'm seeing a huge decline (85% drop) in people making preparations, while the climate news, energy news and hope for a livable future is increasingly worse day by day (from where I sit, reading tons of information each week).

I think that this means die-off on a massive scale through starvation, poor nutrition, war (civil conflicts), disease and weakened immune systems (this century for certain). Too few will do too little and it will then be too late when the "horde" finally wakes the hell up to their predicament. I've little compassion left these days for fools and gainsayers who are sowing the seeds of disbelief and stupidity.

I applaud every effort to wake the people up, but deep down I believe it is futile. Not enough people will gear up and "get it done" in time to prevent catastrophe. They're virtually brainless zombies, controlled by the media and government propaganda.

Nor would it even matter if we could convert millions, because we're still having zero influence upon the worst offenders of all (government / military / corporations) who will go right on insisting on BAU as long as it remains profitable for them. As I see it -- there is absolutely no avoidance of die off or collapse, which will inevitably happen despite our very best efforts.

Americans are much too soft and dependent upon the whole system to keep them alive and too willfully ignorant to even realize it. They have the tools and information at their disposal if they wanted them, but refuse. Their sense of "entitlement" and privilege ("chosenness") is utterly appalling (downright asinine). I think that this ridiculous belief system is going to kill millions, most who are either waiting for a magical rescue or government handout.

Obviously, I'm not going to score any points here or win any popularity contests, but I'm beyond caring about any of that. It's stupid and pointless to try and gain fame or fortune now or create a "following" like so many of the hucksters are trying to do.

I believe that its time to only work with those who will put forth the effort required -- and prepare to oppose those who won't. Who do you think will come knocking on your door when it finally happens to them (their personal collapse)? We are not going to be able to help everybody -- something we cannot even do right now.

If you really stop and factor in the oil energy that is still required for "sustainable farming", it's quite a lot. Without oil (or a tolerable climate), we're fucked, pure and simple. This means we're already in the twilight of humanity's survival upon the Earth. ~Survival Acres~

freeacre said...

Survival Acres,
I don't find any fault in your logic or observations, unfortunately. Those of us with high blood pressure, thyroid problems, heart disease, etc. will soon succumb when we are no longer kept artificially alive when the medicine runs out. Then, there will be a race to see who gets us first - disease or famine or warfare.

We often question what the hell we are doing all this for. Guess, by now, it's a personal thing with the planet and the people at the campfire. I'm not anticipating any huge groundswell of awareness anymore, just in the nick of time.
I am reminded of a Dylan lyric,"Don't think twice, it's all right."

murph said...

Survival Acres,

Thanks for the comment.

As long as folks are not experiencing a very real decrease in survivability, they will not believe. Meanwhile, we preach to the choir and hope a few others will figure it out.

By the way, your math is correct.

I figure that in a good year, we can produce a total of about 30% of our food needs for a year. So far, this year is turning out very badly for garden production, too cold and wet. If the weather doesn't start cooperating in the next week or so, our production will be about nil and consist of mostly onions, Rhubarb and garlic.
What's that about no climate change? We had 3 years of excellent production and starting last year it has gone down dramatically, coinciding with increasing chemtrail activity and herbicidal use. Just coincidence I guess.

I guess I should be thankful that we aren't young enough to have to look at 30-50 years more of this crap.

Anonymous said...

murph... "Joe Salatin is one of my heroes for sustainable farming methods. "

TMRN's recent interview of salatin is available here....

"I expect to see a push to put even more land into factory production of food to be initiated, thus destroying even more whole ecosystems. "

it will be even worse with GM taken to the max. its already happening with modified whatever's being promoted as the saviour. not just generally speaking with fake food for fake people but specialized to address specific malnourishments and diseases.

in my view (and i'm far from alone), engdahl's "seeds of destruction" put it all in its properly due perspective with its subtitle - the hidden agenda of genetic manipulation. all that is even more disturbing now in the way of what's being revealed about particle manipulation post the book's 07 release .

its always valid to question if an underlying agenda of nefarious intent is in play. in this case, there can be no doubt the agenda is to kill life since thats exactly what's going on.

the concept of diminishing returns begs the question - how much poision can be pumped into the planet before it can no longer sustain itself and the various life forms upon it? which then sustain each other in exchange?

a die off is a certainty if the distributation network goes down and/or production is halted due to an extreem anomaly. ie, radiation contamination. relevant is the question - how long can u hold your breath underwater - since such is scalable to the question - how long can u survive while waiting for food to grow?

what's left will gather in unison toward whatever effort is needed for survival. even if the only thing left standing is the planet thrown back upon itself to a primative form. but somewhere woven in the mortar that it is, is its will to survive. and survive it will. unless she's reduced to a dead planet.

or unless the light source goes out. which it could. except that its the last to go... p

Anonymous said...

bexar... "... no birds ... There wasn't any! Dead soil, no life, except chemical poisons to make things grow."

n of ic? my sis lives a couple miles n of I80 and a stones throw w of I380. she's a purddy kewll byrd and she and dh grow much of their food on dh's acreage he held from the sale of his farm. much of it remediated into wetlands about 10 years ago. except for isolated places like that u jes described the whole state of ia! in fact, the whole bread basket! with little way to step away any more. and natch, health is directly relative to infiltration from adjoining uplands in the water shed. not to mention, from the air and prevailing winds. in that respect its far from clean but far cleaner than most.

"...I have been making and adding biochar to my compost for the last four years too. "

which reminds me, i need to turn them on to biochar and mycleium for their cleaning abilities alone. thx for the reminder.

in no way intended to proselytize but in small effort to only return the favor, check out purely green (aka, bio wash). best know as a non-toxic, not-carcinogenic cleaner and industrial degreaser but now being used on flora to increase production, lower freeze points, and in some cases, to address diseases decimating entire forest species. here's a testimonial from gary scott....

murph and fa... u guys might want to check it out too. apparently can act as a pestcide, lower freeze ponts by 4-5 degrees and, at same time, cleanse soil of some contaminants and increase plant ability to uptake nutrients. u'd have to contact them for details as i see nothing on the site in the way of formulas or, for that matter, which product would be best for your purpose. appears they are all concentrates you then dilute with water... p

Anonymous said...

FA... "We betray ourselves and each other when we don't place importance in keeping our word."

this is true to your point. but even truer and more to the point of there being an anti-life agenda when the last half of the sentence is left off.

i'm now convinced the MO of the anti-life-er's is to 'activate' various ways which lead to sundried forms of betrayal of self. its the only thing that trumps all else. we call it dumbed down. or apathy. or denial. or victumization. or blame the elites. or, or, or. but its self-hatred activated at a core level... p

Anonymous said...

SA... "I'm seeing a huge decline (85% drop) in people making preparations, while the climate news, energy news and hope for a livable future is increasingly worse day by day (from where I sit, reading tons of information each week).

that's absolutely fucking disturbing but not surprising actually. another example is matt savinar's now defunct LATOC site though its arguable he pushed the destruct button his own self.

i see 2 things attributing to the decline.

1... those who would be prepers are preped or preped as far as they might go.

2... the fear over peak oil has been highjacked and subsequently subsided.

though far from justified, the subsidence is due to a number of factors only a hand full of which are:

... a concentrated effort to dispell the fear. one of the most effective ways is to divert attention to perceived 'greater fears'.

... crude at or over $100/B has brought more costly methods into play as well as no-money sites back into the money. or so its presented. but a handfull know its all bullshit cuz they never include nearly all the costs

... new tech (as noted by murph)

... new discoveries. ie, off the coast of brazil.

... an increase in the false hope peddled by new-agers, et al that 'something' from somewhere is blowing in on the wings of the ethers that will save our sorry asses without ever having to change a goddamn thing or taking any responsibility for our own plights, actions, or inactions!!

john michael greer put that last one another way... "people who apparently believe that (a) insisting that some technology they’re doing nothing to develop or deploy will bail us out of our predicament, (b) displaying their doombat machismo by imagining a future more godawful than anybody else’s, or (c) finding somebody to blame and showing Jung a thing or two about how to project the shadow, are useful responses to the end of the industrial age. "


Anonymous said...

If they find new oil discoveries, this will be a double-edge sword, sure to kill us all.

Already they're talking about the amount of C02 being pumped into the atmosphere by the Powder River Basin coal (destined for China via Oregon and Washinton ports if they have their way), which will pump another 180 million tons of C02 into the atmosphere. We're already pumping in 22,829,463,000 tons each year. And we still stupidly wonder "what's up with the climate?...."

The bottom line is we can't do this anymore -- but we most surely will, gambling the survival of the entire world and all future generations on sheer assumptions, ie., "we can fix it before it's too late" or just good old-fashioned denial, "it ain't happening!".

C02 lasts DECADES in the atmosphere, we've not even SEEN how bad current emission effects will be.

Fossil fuels are no longer acceptable in any amount. Let me say that again, they are no longer acceptable in any amount. They cannot be burned to power our civilization. It is the ONLY hope humanity has to recover from the precipice.

Such a notion is so far off the table of discussion or even conceptualization that it may as well be on the dark side of the Moon.

Murph - enjoyed your post, really liked it. Should've said that right off.

I'm very much persuaded that all-out global emergency measures need to be taken immediately, we've already waited too long.

Knowing that this won't happen anywhere in the world on a meaningful scale means that survival communities need to rapidly develop, enabling themselves to the best of their abilities to survive what is going to be a very, very tough existence. ~Survival Acres~

murph said...

Survival Acres,

Glad you like the post. It has a lot of repeated info in it from past posts and comments with an attempt to tie it together and a different perspective on the info.

I agree, we should have been doing the changes over 50 years ago. I also agree it won't be happening on any kind of meaningful scale. We have been working to get kind of mental set going in our community every since we moved here. Very limited success. LOL is it the folks we are trying to appeal to or is it our presentation?

Complicating trying to get folks into a different way of looking at events around them, is that one of the pushes is to become a community largely self sufficient, and that has to include food production. Yup, we've gotten quite a few folks encouragement to give it a try. Admittedly, just stepping into a project aimed at providing just 30% of your own food is a big task. However, most are producing maybe 1% of their food on a seasonal basis and have no plans to get bigger at it. Just too much time and effort, it's hard work.

The land in this area is pretty much all volcanic ash down to at least 35'. The soil has to be amended. On top of that, it can and does freeze any night of the year and we have a short growing season. Gardening is a real challenge here. One of our best and most dedicated gardeners that is determined that she and husband will eat off their land had just found out that she has aminopylolids in her garden, probably from horse manure. All of this makes it an added challenge to pointing out to folks that they should be doing this anyway.

Like you said "those who would be prepers are preped or preped as far as they might go"

Anonymous said...

P - I have heard of bio wash someplace but can't remember where now.

Most of my reading/research is on soil and what I can do to enhance it. I came into contact with biochar five  years ago after reading "1491" by Charles Mann.
I have six different compost piles going. Some are in various stages. Active, curing, resting and being used.

Murph- what is aminopylolids? I cannot find a definition for it.

I believe I'm in a fairly good place to live, as far as community goes. I have been a part of beginning garden classes, composting, biochar making, canning, preserving foods and so forth. The sad part in talking with some who had taken the garden class was, they had stopped because it was either too time consuming or too hard. Duh!

We have a person who writes an article in a local paper newspaper that covers all the things facing us. Oil depletion, food shortages, resource depletion, GMO's etc., etc. He keeps hammering away at it.
What I'm trying to say is, there is a very large group here who gets it. Like minded folks.

Good feed back here, I'm enjoying the links too. Just started listening to TMRN interview with Salatin. Thanks p!


murph said...


Aminopyrolids I may have misspelled it in the post. If I remember right, it works by being a hormone mimic, (as most of the herbicides do) Check out back issues in the search function of Mother Earth News. Lots of articles on this and easy to find, usually with references.

Anonymous said...

Murph, agree TPTB can take anyone out and do, but Joels work is well documented, I can't see taking him out making any difference, just create a(nother) martyr. I've not seen that film, watched the trailer and read a bit about it, but I ain't paying, or risking a binary download ;)

P search "contaminated manure" it's a worldwide phenomena, we got hit 3 yrs ago, took out the whole potato crop, for 3 yrs (on that ground). The chemical bonds to plant matter, it will stay active until ALL plant matter is broken down by soil microbes, till the contaminated soil and feed the microbes (molasses, urine, fish guts, etc.) research aerated compost tea too, that seems to have been the final touch to rid us of it round here.

Climate history shows we've been pretty lucky the last 70- 80 yrs, climate change always happened, but on scales beyond most human lifetimes, (unless you happened to live during a grand ocean cycle switch as now) if we are entering another Maunder minimum collapse will speed up bigtime, growing zones will shrink toward the equator again, and it won't be anything to to with Co2. People were eating children/strangers all over Europe only 300 yrs ago, when there were a lot less to feed. The ONLY way to look at it from a preppers POV is to research your local climate history and know what happened IMO, look for 60-80yrs and longer 300yr cycles and get a feel of where you are in the current cycle, ignore the scare headlines, NWO control BS, know YOUR climate history, it's different everywhere, we can't change it, we have to learn how to deal with it, and to do that you need some historical context IMO. You will see times exactly like now, exactly, it's happened before, a lot.

PO collapse won't be a sudden thing, it'll take longer than 30yrs IMO, we already started.

I've pretty much put growing annuals on hold, it's like treading water - keeping me too busy to get on with longer term perennial crops (soil building, forest gardens, coppice, land infrastructure [dams, ponds, bog gardens] researching, sourcing and propagating edible perennials etc.) a lot of the herbaceous plants taste like shit, but they're the only things thriving this year, it's like insurance.

It it could frost any night of the year here, I'd move. If that wasn't possible I'd switch to pollytunnels for annuals and grow a LOT of perennials.


murph said...


Good comments. Thanks for sharing.

At our age I seriously doubt that we will be moving again. We either tuff it out here or we don't.

One of our problems here is that the weather cycles have changed rather drastically in the last couple of years. I simply don't know what to expect any more. Here it is into the 2nd week of June and we are still getting temps down around 30 degrees at night. Having to heat the greenhouse at night to protect the temp. sensitive plants. Mulching and covering the outdoor plants. Even then, the day time temps are cool enough that growth is very slow, if at all, and we wonder if we have enough season left to get a harvest.

I've looked into growing perennials in the garden and it appears that most of them can not supply a diet to live on. We need annuals to fill the freezer, can or dry.

I have been considering the pollytunnels and may have to go that route if this crazy weather is not going to revert back to a more normal cycle. Either that or a damned big greenhouse like survivalacres is putting up.

We had 4 years where we filled the freezer and gave food away and ate off it all summer. So far this year, all we have produced is lettuce. sigh. Of course on clear days the aerial spraying and obscuring the sun isn't helping one damned bit. Guess the ptb are afraid it might get warm around here. I'm still wearing flannel shirts during the day. At least the mosquitoes have died back.

Again, thanks for the comments.

freeacre said...

I think our efforts at food localization are bearing fruit. In case anyone has missed it, check out the website of our 2nd Annual Chicken Coop, Garden and Greenhouse Tour. We sold 140 booklets last year, one for each carload of people. This year could be twice that. People were really surprised and excited about vegetable gardening and raising their own chickens (and even rabbits). Really, take a look:

Anonymous said...

FA great stuff! My localisation/community efforts seem to be as efficient as herding cats! Your sound effects set all my dogs off barking, I had the sound turned up quite loud, gave me a start too LOL

Murph: Recent climate changes are due in large part to the PDO switching to cool phase 3 yrs ago (AMO already switched) the best authority on ocean cycles is IMO, it seems to take a few yrs to settle down to anything "normal" after the switch. Pinning down a similar historical reference "exactly" to a time period is very difficult, specially with sun cycles included, suggest papers from before the 80's when politics usurped climate science. I'm not familiar with your neck of the woods, but this 1979 newspaper article ref to a paper might be relevant

On perennials I find references to the neolithic diet relevant here, (lots of nuts) If they were gathering it I want to grow it! I wonder how the original indigenous population in the US coped with prior climate changes diet wise, what they ate may provide some clues. I started my perennial escapades with pfaf top 20

Since you mentioned lettuce, there are loads of perennials can substitute salads, from coppiced lime tree leaves (the young ones) to bamboo shoots, there are loads of perennials you can blanch to make them more appetising, perennial spinach, mallow, plantain, rocket, and "weeds" like goose grass (seeds make a half decent 'coffee' too).

I have 5 types of perennial onions, think of the time saving on those alone, specially if you raise onions from seed! OK they're not 'big n fat' like domesticated annuals, potato onions are my biggest like a large golf ball, but they grow prolifically and keep much better.

Don't forget self seeders, I used to struggle with parsnips, until I abandoned a patch due to injury, they've been self seeding the whole patch for 3 yrs now, I started to put seeds out in the wild wherever burdock grows, guerilla veggie gardening :)

don't forget perennial fodder crops for the chickens and rabbits, my chicks love chick weed, dandelions, and pretty much any "wild" perennials we can eat.

I don't breed rabbits, they do it on their own round here, I find trapping (cage traps) most efficient time wise (can't use snares as they might catch someones pets!)

Good luck with the greenhouse/polly tunnels (which can be made real cheap out of plastic water pipe) I'd say it would be compulsory given your climate!

All the best, GD.

Anonymous said...

Forget one of my favourites: Nettles! keep cutting them and they come back in droves, take the top leaf pair, makes a lovely nutritious soup, I like a sprinkle of cheese in the bowl too :) Chicks will love it in a mash once it's blanched GD

Anonymous said...

some synchronicity in today's browsing! - GD

murph said...


I've read all your links and some more besides. Giving me pause for thought of course. I understand the logic and discussions concerning annuals and perennials.

Unfortunately, we have lived in the present environment of only 8 years, and there are lots of ground plants around that I can't identify and have no idea of their usefulness or invasiveness. We have several books on native flora for the our area that doesn't seem to show what I need to know, being primarily concerned with trees and shrubbery. We need Linda Runyan to make a trip here. lol.

I will continue to look into this concept.

rockpicker said...

Dutch has a good example of weather modification here.

rockpicker said...

Donald Scott, from Thunderbolts.

rockpicker said...

Charlie McGrath, on Ron Paul betrayal.

S said...

I like your blog.
Much of what I find here mirrors my own thoughts.

Based on the evidence so far many are screwed. Things are going to get worse. Not enough people are "mirroring" the thoughts expressed here.

The good news is that maybe some of the wisdom that circuculates in the world will help those humans who continue on...(or at least who I for some strange reason hope carry on).

murph said...


Thanks for the comment.

I have found blogging often does not put out new information, but does help clarify my own thinking and allows me to share those thoughts.

There is so much information circulating around on so many subjects that trying to form some kind of comprehensive picture of what is happening I find daunting. But I still find it compelling to keep trying to do so.

Anonymous said...

Last summer I tried my luck with carrots and had a good many come up even after a few narly T-storms washed away some of the dirt the seeds were in. The ones that survived to adulthood were absolutely fantastic! I've never tasted carrots this good -it was like crunchy candy. So now I'm totally hooked on growing carrots to the point where I've dug-up a little bit more of the backyard AND abandoned the potato box. Right now I have carrots greens reaching 10" high because I've started them in tunnels in March. 'Twas supper easy to make with materials costing less than 20bucks.

The two best carrots so far were Amarillo Yellow and Chantenay Red Core. I've added a few other heirloom varieties for this year from Baker Creek Seed Company and I can't wait to munch on 'em.

Ok, next. I sometimes click on our local newpaper website and a local TV station website to see what's going on -AND, see what the comments on some of the stories I read. Today there was an article on a Utah National Guard unit going to Afghanistan (poor slobs) and the comments consisted of glowing adoration and hero worship. These people and I think most people -wait, make that "sheeple," have not one clue as to why we're wasting brown people in far-off lands. The MSM has done a great job at keeping people totally ignorant. It just makes me want to hurl. Of course, I couldn't help adding my two cents worth in the comment section and am expecting a ton of replys telling me how un-Murikan I am. Jeebus.

The sheeple's clue-bags are totally empty.


rockpicker said...

Randy; Here's a good trick for germinating carrots. Put a board over the seed bed after you plant and wet them. It takes twenty days, or so, to germinate carrots, and you need to keep the soil moist the whole time. I just had carrots come up using this method. Looks like 100
% germination to me.

Anonymous said...

Thanks rp,

-but, a board? No sunlight? And should the board be raised with something like a rock a couple of inches over the planted seeds?


Anonymous said...


Re Survival Acres comment about people not 'getting it', here is a snippet from the local TV news from one of the Belgian stations. There was footage of the inside of the parliament chamber when they were discussing cuts in public spending. This was followed by the anchor talking to the resident expert so that the public at large could know what was going on in simple terms. I swear this is true, the 'expert' actually said “I know it is not popular but the public at large are going to have to make sacrifices in order to help the banks get through their difficult period”. If I had been the anchor, I would have agreed with him because I wouldn't have known what else to say and I am not easily fazed.

Remember back in November last year when I did the polio post? I wrote to Jen Lake to ask if she would answer some questions about virus. A couple of months later I got a reply but I was crazy busy at that time and did not have the time to get back into the microbiology to find the right questions to ask, and so I let it slide. In the meantime she has gone further with the influenza site and this now addresses many of the questions I was going to ask.

rockpicker said...

Randy, No. I used a piece of plywood, because it was just the right size to cover the whole bed. It transfers heat from the sun, and maintains soil moisture, so your seeds don't dry out. Letting that happen will kill them. I watered twice a day by simply removing the plywood and sprinkling thoroughly before replacing the wood. Worked great! Also kept weeds from germinating. When the carrots pop, they all pop at once. One day I removed the board and there were all my new carrots, green cotyledons looking for the sun.

rockpicker said...

Hey, gang. This is an alert! Go check out the red page here:

Hotspringswizard said...

Hey Randy I tried calling that cell number you gave me as we were passing through Salt Lake City today but it wouldn't take a message. We got up here to Jackson Hole this evening. Looks like we may be staying overnight at a friends place just north of Salt Lake City, Thurs 21st on our way home so maybe somethng might work out to meet you then. You got my phone and e-mail.

RP, Wish you were closer. Its a long drive for us up here and in the next week we will be doing alot more driving/exploring around the area. We are planning on heading up to Yellowstone on two seperate days so I don't know if your interested in driving down and maybe meeting us somewhere just outside the park at its north entrance while we are up there. Sure beautiful country up here :-)

Anonymous said...

Thanks RP! I just sent away for another type of carrot from Baker Creek and figured out a place to put them so I'll definitely do it. Have a piece of plywood ready to go.

RATS! , I turned on my dumb Tracfone, but I was running around the building all day due to multiple seminars that I have to help with and sometimes things don't get through -it's a facility that people have problems getting phones to work. My room is particularly bad -I operate 12 computers, 21 monitors and a vast array of other equipment that makes it hard for me to hear myself THINK becuase of all of the fan noise.

Hopefully we can meet up on your return pass -and I hope you have a great time in Yellowstone.


Hotspringswizard said...

Randy, your tracphone said when I called that it had not been set up yet to take messages, so I couldn't leave one for that reason. Our check out here at the place we are staying is next week on Thursday the 21st, 10AM so thats when we will be heading back south to the Salt Lake City area. My friend lives in Layton up against the mountains near the James V Hansen HWY, and thats probably where we will be staying that Thursday night. If you call me by cell phone Thurs/21st we can coordinate a chance for a meet up :-)

Hotspringswizard said...

RP I mentioned the north entrance to Yellowstone but in looking at the map I see that what I was referring to was the west entrance.

Anonymous said...


I read Steve Quale's red page and some of the more recent articles on the blog site. It all made sense to me. I was talking to my son in law about it tonight and he said that Umicore shares had been rising recently, he thought about 2% - 3% /day and also that the dollar had been rising against the Euro. Umicore are the worlds leading processor of precious metals, the platinum, rhodium etc type of metals. I put up Umicore's chart for the last year and it seems very inconclusive to me. It seems to be holding steady at about 38 but down from its peak of 44 in early may. Unless Germany is buying gold from the IMF there has not been any recent activity into the more specialized metals.

All the same I think I can find room on the shelf for a few more cans just in case.

rockpicker said...

HSW; Thanks for that clarification. What days were you planning to be in the Park? Oldensoul and I would love to meet you in West, which is about ninety miles southeast of us, but both of us may have conflicting schedules. If we miss you, Bulwinkles is the place to eat in West Yellowstone.

rockpicker said...

Freeacre and Murph; The Black Death? in Bend, Oregon?

Hotspringswizard said...

RP, Right now we are planning on riding the tram to the top of a high mountain at the Teton Ski resort tomorrow since its looking like the weather will be clear for viewing the vistas up there. We are looking to go to Yellowstone on two days since there is so much to see there, and go to the Teton's park on another day.

That may happen on Mon-Tues-Wedns but we haven't decided on the timeframe yet. Were hoping that the weekdays and some cooler weather forcasted for then will help thin out the visitor numbers providing for more ease of access and driving around the parks. I'll post here when we know we will be in Yellowstone and maybe we can work something out for a meeting between ours and your schedules. I posted earlier here my e-mail and my cell phone number if you wish to contact me that way.

Anonymous said...


I just referenced this site through Steve Quial.

The story is about the interim Greek government restricting capital movements out of their country and the article ends with this paragraph.

“Treasury Secretary George Zanias appears to have engaged in the implementation of these capital controls during the void in leadership due to the upcoming elections. As this process continues and expands to lower and lower amounts of Euros the average citizen or businessman is allowed to transfer out of the nation, the economy will come to a screeching halt. It is my hope every American watches this process as de facto capital controls are already in effect in the United States effective January 1, 2013. Prepare to witness an economic carnage unseen by the majority of us in our lifetimes and much worse than the 1930′s Great Depression.”

If you follow the link and read the comments this is also happening to American citizen accounts in New Zealand and Israel also.

Were you guys aware of this? Is this the working through of PNAC started in the Bush era?

I always had a feeling that the Dollar would go before the Euro but now it is here this is probably the moment the European experiment was designed to build to even from its days in the Club of Rome.

Anonymous said...


The sentence above “de facto capital controls are already in effect in the United States effective from January 1, 2013” was a hyperlink which did not transfer over.

Here is the link the article referred to:

Anonymous said...

This piece just about sums it all up.


Hotspringswizard said...

Rp, can you and Oldensoul make it for a meeting at West Yellowstone on either of the days, Mon, Tues, or Wedns? Any of those days would work out for us. Feel free to call either of our cell phones numbers if you want to plan it out. Mine is 760-265-0664, and my wifes is 760-861-9222. Try my wifes number first since she usually always has that one with her.

rockpicker said...

Here's Max Keiser talking about saving Greece with silver drachmas.

rockpicker said...

HSW; Sorry. The timing is not going to work out for us. Oldensoul works for the State historical commission as a curator in Virginia City/ Nevada City, and due to cut-backs, has had extra work load dumped on her. She can't get away at all until the weekend. I two have a project going, collecting and supplying some stone for mason chomping at the bit to get started, plus I have company coming to stay later in the week.

We hope you and your family have a great time perusing the Jackson Hole/Yellowstone ecoregion, and hope you will share some pics with the troutclan.

rockpicker said...

Bexar; Good link. I sent a similar email to my sister, a dyed-in-the-wool-liberal Democrat, a few days ago. So far, dead silence in response.

The author is spot-on, from my perspective.

Lucretia Heart said...

Hey Murph!

LOVE the puppies! I hope we get to meet them at some point in the future next time we come down your way. They look adorable! *squee*

Thanks for the tip on testing suspect soil for herbicide contamination-- I needed to know that!

Our permanent berry/herb/flower garden is well established now, and we finally have our big seasonal garden up and going. Labor intensive for sure, but I've found that I enjoy playing in the dirt way more than I resent the work! Never expected that gardening would be so perfectly therapeutic. Quietly, we live the words "Be the change" and now and then mention Peak Everything and Decline punctuated by periodic Collapses to others as a part of passing conversation. Over time, more people are listening-- especially those under 30, as I've mentioned previously.

Still, I suspect that you are right- the time for people to prepare for major changes is growing ever slimmer. And most are no where near prepared.

Historically, when food gets very expensive and people start to go hungry populations get reduced pretty quickly through 2 things: war (either as distraction to masses or as revolution of the masses) or disease. Perpetual malnutrition lowers immunity and pandemics are common to hungry populations. Not fun, but its what I foresee.

I'm glad to be on THIS side of the learning curve at least, and have you and freeacre in part to thank for that. In small ways, we can help a small number of people be better positioned. I wish there was more we could do, but as you say-- people on the whole are just not ready to deal with reality until it is too late to deal with it.

Hotspringswizard said...

RP, Sorry we won't get to see you and Oldensoul but I understand since the timeframe is during your work week. It was an amazing view today from the top of that tramway out of Teton Village. It goes up to 10,400 feet to a peak just south across a big valley from Mount Hunt. The weather was perfect for seeing the 360 degree panoramic vistas of the Tetons with all the snow and alpine terrain :-) We also went all over the Teton park. That Jackson Lodge and the view from there of the Tetons is just awesome too :-)

freeacre said...

Hey, Lucretia! I've been thinking about you. Did you know there was a small 1.8 earthquake just outside Portland today? Glad your gardening is going so well. Once again, take a look at our website for the 2nd annual La Pine Coop and Garden Tour. So far, this has been the best way to interest folks in localized food and preparedness. They do it mostly for the fun of doing it and for the taste of the good food. But, what the heck,they are doing it. The local paper is going to give prizes for the best veggies, the cutest coop, and whatnot. Now it is being seen as a big local event and city ordinances have defined La Pine as a poultry friendly town. Nine chickens allowed in backyards of homes within city limits - and the mayor raises rabbits, too!
Hey, Randy, those carrots sound great! I love Baker Creek seeds. The rainbow colored radishes are good, too! Good for you.
Today, we went to a cowboy shooting festival where balloons were shot from galloping horses. What fun. Got to release my inner cowgirl.

Hotspringswizard said...

Here are several photos I took during todays explorations in the Teton Park and Jackson Hole area:

Wetlands near the Jackson Lodge.

A Robin just having caught dinner by the Lodge.

And this one taken up at 10,400 feet in the Tetons, with Grand Teton Mountain ( 13,700 feet ) seen in the far background as a pointed peak just above the orange sign.

Anonymous said...


here is Nigel Farage telling it like it really is.

Anonymous said...

A good Fathers Day to all who qualify.

If only there was someone in this country who qualified for this prize!


rockpicker said...

SATS, Check out this one from the Young Turks.

rockpicker said...

I know 9/11 is passe, but I stumbled on this accidentally last night and I think it's a keeper.

murph said...


I figure it would take me over 2 hrs to make a flow chart to make understandable that film on 9-11. The commentator rips through so many people so fast along with their relationships to each other that in a first time through, it is only an impression that is left.

I suppose we will never have all the truth about that.

rockpicker said...


Yes I agree, and my impression is that probably not before or since have so many history-changing synchronisities occurred on any given day. Just a magic moment in our lives.

Regardless, the person speaking is articulate and the people he's introducing are well-identified, so it's an easy thing to take it frame by frame and check it all out. Many of those he mentions I'm familiar with, by name and reputation, and his info jibes with mine.

murph said...


It's all coincidence you know. No conspiracy, no cover up, nothing to see here, move along now and let the good folks get on with their business. LOLOLOL

freeacre said...

Keep your eyeballs on the cyclone headed for Fukushima. This could be the diasphora that Clif High has been predicting. Hope not.

Anonymous said...


Rp, that young Turks video was interesting but you know, contrary to what the presenter said, flat or negative interest rates are not something new, or even all that uncommon. Essentially, there are two basic wings to the criminal classes. There are those who are out front and in your face with their activities and in return expect respect and deference from the common man. These are the board members of the Fed and Goldman Sachs types. These are the ones who will roll heads if they don't make 1000% return per year on their activities and pay little or no tax.
Then there are the sub strata gangsters who as a result of not appearing to do anything very much, find themselves with a lot of non existent money and wonder what is the best thing to do with it. These are the drug runners, pimps and general smugglers in either goods or people. Here the choices fall into three camps. Number 1 is to stuff it into a mattress which is not a very smart thing to do but it is always under your control. Choice 2 is to legit it say by say, paying a business man to make a cash injection into a company you own with your own money. You can make re-loan payments or dividends to yourself which you then offset against tax. Better still is if you have two companies, one which makes a profit and another which makes a loss, then tax payments from the profitable one can be balanced against tax credits from the loss making one. This sort of scheme can work but may be more hassle than you want. Option 3 is the famous offshore bank account. In return for the banker conveniently forgetting where the money came from, you pay him a cut in the form of negative interest rates, just as you would do for any other service you purchase. The banker then uses your money on the investment markets to increase his own wealth at your expense but it is still cheaper than legiting it and paying tax in the normal way. Depending on how you view it, it can either be a ball breaker or a lot of fun going to Bermuda or the Cayman Islands to get a pocket full of your own cash.

The thing that is different now and what this video was about is that by over milking the cash cow the respectable business men are now finding themselves in the same boat as the criminal underclass.

rockpicker said...

Take a gander at Steve Quayle's alerts today...

rockpicker said...

If that's too much to deal with, relax with this one...

rockpicker said...

Hey, Palooka, how's the shadow falling from your solstice pole?

rockpicker said...

More financial time bombs from V.

Anonymous said...

rp... planted that baby right after i'd clear all the underbrush from here to the creek. watered it, gave it a kiss and left it to whim and the sun. but lo, it didn't grow. so woe is me. and low is it. still stnds but now 'mongst shadows.

did some recongiguration on the deck and lost that one.

time to plant another. and think about unintended consequence this time. thx for reminding me.

Hotspringswizard said...

Randy, The family and I very much enjoyed meeting and dining with you and your wife last night. Enjoyed also seeing your place, the garden, your cargo bike and one of your Attack Kitties :-)