Thursday, December 27, 2007

TO BE OR NOT TO BE TECHNOGICAL, Or maybe there is no fix.

By Murph with some help from Freeacre

Oh dear, I am now being looked at as a Luddite? Freeacre suggests that is it more a matter of eternal pessimism than picking on the Luddites. Just to let you know. I have been into technology for most of my life. Hell, I have degrees in technology. I really get off on technology, although I think a lot of the gadgets developed to make a buck are plain ass stupid, and of little actual benefit to anyone, despite their popularity.

A subject has been brought up in our comment section that is important to me. I suspect that it will vary in importance between individuals, and I think some people will get a bit testy over it. This subject deals with the role technology has played in the development of western civilization and our society in particular. What are the consequences, planned and unplanned , of technology, and its advantages.

I have expressed at times more or less emphatically, that I was reasonably comfortable with the older technologies, and many of the new stuff, gizmos and thingies, in my view have very questionable benefits personally and socially.

The first question I want to deal with is that I have been asked how far back in technology am I willing to go? Well, my answer is as far back as it is sustainable, that is, that the use of energy and or raw materials to do a task is replenished at least at the rate it is used. That is what sustainable means. We can get into a discussion about energy ratios and replenishment rates for all kinds of stuff. In the end analysis, what is to be done when many of our raw materials are just flat out gone because their replenishment rate is in 10’s of thousands of years, or longer? For instance, at our present rate of human usage, how long before there is no more copper to be mined and refined at a cost that is bearable? So, for a lot of raw material, for which we have no measure of how much is actually there for us to exploit, it would be a matter of how long can we have it available before there is no more available? We are experiencing this right now in our use of oil. Other materials are becoming much more difficult to get to and use also, or becoming prohibitively expensive due to scarcity. Let’s face it, the easy stuff has mostly been used up. And this doesn’t even begin to look at the environmental damage to whole expanses of ecology from what mining and refining that has already been done. Look at the area around the Alberta tar sands. It is now a wasteland, the natural gas usage to do the extraction is huge and none of the incredible environmental damage has been figured in as part of the cost. All this so we can drive to the grocery store that is 5 blocks away? Give me a break!!

For me, it is interesting to look at the problem of why environmental concerns have never been a big player in decision making, at any level of government or industry. And, don’t come back at me with how much the environmentalists have accomplished. They haven’t accomplished shit. They have saved a few trees, stopped some water exploitation and gotten some animals on the endangered specie list for which the federal authorities mostly ignore anyway and industry sure as hell does. Forests are still being clear cut, the oceans are still being killed, the fresh water fishing is still being poisoned, the farmland is still being poisoned and made sterile, the spawning fish are being driven into extinction and the latest published results of mans activities indicate that nearly 100 species per day are driven extinct by our actions. I can’t confirm or repudiate the number, but I am reasonably sure that we are killing off a lot of critters by our actions.

So, my question to you is, how many generations are you planning to try and support by your energy usage or lack of it? Just yours, and then it is all gone? Or 7 generations in the future, or what?

I wrote in a comment on the last post about doing some research on how to control the gypsy moth. One suggested comment back to me is also typical of quick fixes that ultimately turn out really bad. You cannot play favoritism games with natural process in the long term and not get most severely bit on the ass. Introducing one specie to control another has only been very short term benefits and always turns out to be damaging in the long term. In fact, if you have an example, I would like an example of one instance where another specie was imported or heavily supported and bred by humans to cure a problem that in the long run didn’t turn out to be a disaster. I can’t think of a single one that hasn’t caused other severe problems that had to be dealt with. Besides, the gypsy moth problem is a 4 year cycle problem, that is, it happens only once in at the minimum every 4 years and then is gone for at least another 4 years.

In the research I did and presented to the lake association I found that there were three solutions to the problem. The first two involved the use of commercially made solutions and were, relative to the third, inexpensive. The consequences of using the first two I mentioned in my comments on the subject. What it came down to; after they sprayed their high tech solution to control gypsy moths, there no longer was any grasshoppers, crickets, any other Lepidoptera, dragon flies or butterflies, but still lots of mosquitoes. In fact, they increased, after all, the spraying seemed to drive out the bats and birds also. In the two more years after the spraying, we noticed a definite decrease in songbirds around the area and the wild turkeys stopped coming around to beg a handout.

The third solution was the most expensive but also very low tech and had no negative impact on the rest of the environment, only the gypsy moth suffered death and destruction. It is also a very old and well known solution. You take a whole bunch of bodies of the pest you want to fight with, chop them up fine, (like in a blender) mix with water till you get a slurry and spray where the pest is located. Works every time, involves no chemicals and is very specie specific

So, my question is; just what price are you willing to pay in the use of technology that will affect other species, including us? The thing I want to emphasize here is that every technological development is at the expense of the environment. So sad, but true. And, an even more difficult question to answer; just what in hell gives us the right to affect other species in such a wholesale manner at all? The claim of manifest destiny and divine right given by God in the Old Testament simply doesn’t impress me. Just where do we get off in our human arrogance to claim that our lives are anymore important than any other critters on this planet? It gets down to this; the world and all that is in it can get along very well without us, but we cannot live at all without all that is in the world, including the bacteria and viruses. So who needs who and what value do we place on that which we have to have to live and I sure don’t recall anything in our exalted Christian religion that has God implying that killing off every other piece of life is ok by him. We have been in the industrial revolution since the late 1800’s. Since that time the exploitation, vast manipulation, and out right savagery that has followed technological innovations is truly a work of art. In the name of development, we have enslaved whole countries, taken their resources for pennies on the dollar, often contributed to or hired the guns to enforce the slavery and are responsible for generations of mass killings. All to support our thirst for technology and the benefits we believe we get from it. And you would ask if I am anti technology? Hmmmm.

The question has been raised concerning people of my persuasion that are stocking up for the coming bad times, and what this contributes in energy usage. On this I claim guilty as hell. Wish I had the money to do it better than I now can. Realizing that driving the car is environmentally unsound, there would then have to be an alternative to driving to Bend and stocking up on survival food.

When we recognize this is the case, do we take the poison or blow our brains out? As we see it anyway, there is a most high probability that our survival, and for most people, is going to depend on this kind of preparation. You notice that I indicated survival, not grand living. If we were 20 years younger, we could do with a bunch less. But, since we aren’t, we have to prepare as we see fit. As for the future, a much lowered technology and standard of living (as is presently measured) is not going to be an option, but rather is going to be the norm. I’m not sure about feudal times, since that is a political statement, but we are going to be forced to live a whole bunch more simply in regards to energy usage. The means to support the present usage is going to be going away quite soon, and to the best of my investigations, not a damned thing we can do about it. There is a whole bunch of ideas and doo-dads out there that supposedly is going to save the day and we will sacrifice little of what we have to keep doing things the way we are. As I see it, this is pie in the sky wistful thinking, very similar to the rapture, to salvation and just outright theology, having not much to do with reality.

So, my question is; with the realization that it is impossible to live in a sustainable fashion in contemporary society, what do you suggest we do? Use up everything available till there is no more? Poison off more and more of the environment to keep going another generation? Invent a few more gadgets to prolong the decline? Or what? We are trying to decrease our footprint, not because it will make a damned bit of difference to the world, but instead to practice for what is coming. Plus, on an ethical level, it seems to be more real, at least to us. Yup, for our whole lives, we have become so used to life style entitlements, regardless of the cost, that we cannot envision being without it. Enough humans become nitrate fertilizer for the plants and what ever I do will be even more insignificant.

When I did my trip with very primitive living, one thing I found out was that for anyone doing that, voluntarily or not, there was at least one thing you find you simply cannot do without. For me it was a hot shower. I did it in the most low tech means available that I could find at the time since all the nice high tech means I couldn’t pay for at the time anyway. We did without running water, central heat, in fact we heated one room of a barn and it sure as hell wasn’t the bedroom, for a year no electricity, we carried every drop of water we used and we walked a lot. I suspect that most of us might just experience this decision making in the not too distant future.

Now dig this. This Christmas, we had dinner with some good friends, neighbors, who had a few relatives over for a really great meal. The man who prepared almost the whole meal is a waiter at a nice restaurant and is also a pretty damned good basic cook. Our host had just gotten an elk during hunting season and had a roast to prepare for the dinner. The brother, waiter cook, did the preparation. He has never eaten or tasted or cooked wild game. The roast was superb. He wasn’t going to eat any of it and one of the other relatives wouldn’t touch it either. Freeacre got to talking about some of the hoi paloi restaurants in Tahoe that once a year as a treat, served an expensive meal of elk. All of a sudden, she had his attention. Expensive restaurants serving wild game? Hmmm. He tried it and loved it. This guy seems like a really interesting and nice person. He has lived in a city all his life. His attitude is not unusual I find. I have run into it over an over. What you have no experience with you tend to discount. How does this apply to technology? If you haven’t lived without it, you discount the possibility.

Ok, so we are back at the beginning of the discussion. Do we reject new technology for any reason? I say; often times yes. I don’t think we need more gadgets of questionable benefit, and ignoring the true cost of making it. We need less people using up a lot less resources. Our attitude about technology has been beat into our heads since birth. We really truly believe that technology can save our ass from our stupidities. We believe deep down in our hearts that technology is like magic, we can do anything. We truly believe that there is no problem that doesn’t have a solution. We believe in our hearts that a short term fix is equivalent to a long term fix and we can just keep doing our gig forever, or at least till we up and die. As a civilization and most especially the American society simply cannot bear to look at the consequences of what we have done and what is going to happen to us.

A technological fix? My question is; for all new technologies, or at least gadgets of technology, from the beginnings of inception, until they can be fully utilized by any segment of society, is how long? I think upon investigation you will find it is about 12 years, give or take some. Do we have that long? Are the benefits really going to accomplish that much? What is the true cost of implementing this development? It has been suggested that there is the technology for individual home power generation that is virtually free. Now let’s get this straight. There is no damned such thing as a free lunch in any part of the universe that I am familiar with. Capturing and using electrical energy on an individual household is like talking about a refrigerator in every house. How many years did it take to do that? How many people could afford it? How effective is it? Remember the early refrigerators? They were literally ice boxes, then they went to a kerosene cooling system. Both were of questionable dependability. It was 15 years later that we finally got a compressor electric motor run cooling system that was reasonably dependable for the home. How long did it take from the conception of TV until they could be put into a persons home? Same with radio. Same with VCR, same with CD and DVD and what about computers. Personally, I don’t think we have time to make any general use of new gadgets to produce home electricity. Without food or water it would make no difference for 90% of the people in this country anyway. For the rest of us, electricity is only part of what we will be lacking.

I enjoy looking at and learning some about new technologies and the resultant gadgets. There are some that insist that we haven’t had any really new technologies for 50 years now. All we have is some engineering changes to the old stuff. Whatever. I’m not sure how many people have been in a new house that is high tech. The environmental impact of all that stuff is tremendous. Like I said, a lot of the older stuff is just fine with me. How many people you know that have an antenna for the TV and FM radio? Lol.

Let’s consult Richard Heinberg from is book, “Powerdown.”

….” In principle, however, we have already run the “free energy” experiment, on a smaller scale, several times in human history, and other species have run it as well. Every time we humans have found a way to harvest a dramatically increased amount of food or fuel from the environment, we have been presented with a quantity of energy that is, if not entirely free, at least cheap and abundant relative to what we had previously. Each time, we have responded by increasing our population, and correspondingly, the load on the environmental systems that sustain us. Each time, we have ended up degrading the environment and creating the conditions for a crash.” He goes on to site specific examples of migrating from Africa, then eating all the mastodons, mammoths, giant sloth’s, etc. (This is often referred to as the Pleostein Overkill and there is a lot of dissension about it’s validity), through the invention of agriculture in one civilization after another where they built densely populated cities, then collapsed after exhausting the soil and cutting too many trees…and on to increasing the population from 800 million to 6.4 billion in 3 centuries after the Industrial Revolution.

He goes on, “So, if some new free-energy device were to become available tomorrow, how would people respond? We really don’t need to speculate much. Absent a self-limiting, culturally reinforced, Powerdown program, we can be virtually 100 percent sure that the response would be to continue population growth, and to increase the harvesting of other resources, from the environment until Liebig’s Law got us in one way or another. Liebig’s Law, also known as the Law of the Minimum, states that the carrying capacity for any given species is set by the necessity of least supply. Eventually one crucial thing would be missing from the balance and life as we know it would be over. Everything depends on the weakest link,

For Heinberg the upshot is that there can be no more Business as Usual. “The way out of the dilemma requires no technological breakthrough; indeed, purely technical “solutions” may only distract us from addressing the underlying problem. The way out is to restrict per-capita resource usage and to reduce the human population.” Pretty much nobody want to hear that, so Heinberg gets a bit glum from time to time.

He is Bozo the Clown, though, in comparison to Derrick Jensen. Actually, the space constraints in this post probably require that Jensen be dealt with in a separate post.

56 comments:

Anonymous said...

Murph, can not add much to your post because it seems right on,the underlying problem mostly is the over population but thats just on the level of human evolution don't you think?
the fact that people will not wake up to what you are talking about can only mean one thing,right? that the mess that we have made of the world and one another is coming home to roost and really people don't give a shit that its happening,i talk with folks and they just look at you funny and you can tell they are just being proper about their response to you but are thinking where in the fuck is this guy coming from?

so...i can prepare for those around me,and care for as far as the eye can see and after that its up to the folks that live beyond my vision,and i think that that is enough,
i cannot save everyone and neither can you and neither can anyone else, and even if you had that power people would still tell you to bug off,not interested.
so i will not waste energy any more trying to convince folks that the sky is falling and instead concentrate on the close family i have and a few good friends that know the shit is coming down and we are preparing same as you and hopefully the other members of this clan are doing also.
this is what i can do...the rest of it is just to much to deal with and so i say fuck it,and i say to them sorry you have to go through the hell that awaits just ahead but thats the way of it.
man have we fucked up or what?
langosta is in serious agreement on this one.

thanks for you time and effort to bring this post to us murph and fa,you guys are the best.
aho
mf

Palooka's Revenge said...

ditto!

freeacre said...

Well, we are engaged in a new little experiment. Since the American Express bill came in from that latest raid on Costo along with the extra $50 membership fee, we decided to take the opportunity to see if we could go for a month without spending any money at the grocery store. That way, we can see if we have any glaring errors in our inventory. Now is probably a good time also because due to my compulsive need to make cookies and other goodies at Christmas, we are surrounded by a galaxy of carbohydrates that need to be eaten up even though I should not have access to them for another year.
It's a good thing that Murph re-designed the chicken house door. He brought it up about 5 inches at the bottom and made a sill for the chickens to walk over so that there would be room for an accumulation of ice and snow. Didn't think about that in the summer, but by now we wouldn't be able to close the door if he hadn't changed it. Lots of snow has accumulated, but the girls continue to lay eggs.
Neighbors laid some ground elk on us and a couple of slices of elk roast. I made some killer chili with it that we can eat for 3 or 4 days along with corn bread.I gave them some smoked salmon that we made in the smoker. Yum.
So, I guess it is officially winter. Reading seed catalog's and sewing and cooking for me. Fixing, re-loading experiments, and keeping the fire going in the shop for the Murph man. The Iowa primary should be interesting, but I am looking forward to the Super Feb.5 one that has multiple states involved. Happens to fall on my birthday.
Got to go and get ready for the citizens action committee meeting. Later.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

My, we can all go ditoing mf down the page, but as one of those who posed the probing questions which led to this post, I feel I should respond further.

Firstly, thanks for the quick response Murph, I know you had family round for Christmas then visiting the neighbours, this post must have been gnawing at the back of your mind to get it out so quickly.

You say things which are so common sense that it is difficult to fault it
I have jotted down a few notes, more in the nature of observations so I hope I can join it all up and make it flow. Firstly I have never been into trading a short term advantage for a long term loss. You know the sort of thing you get offered; how would you like a nice fat Christmas bonus instead of the next two years pay rises? With those sort of things and the things we are now discussing I will instinctively tip my finger up at the quick fix.

I am not disparaging other species on the planet but the one thing which made mankind different was his acquisitive nature. Ever since he looked at the stars and pondered, he has been on a journey the other species never took. Every time he solved a problem he found there were two more that needed an answer and he could not turn his back and say “Ach, who needs it”. Now we are riding the snowball and it is in reach of the house at the bottom of the hill. Jumping in front and trying to get it back up to the top is not going to be an easy task. Many take the view that there are no unknowable things, only things which are unknown. The more he learns, mankind realises there are more questions than he has answers for. The further he voyages into the unknown the more afraid he becomes so he invents mind fuck games for himself, ethereal phenomenon which are the holders of insoluble problems, then he is happier because he can feel small and have comfort knowing there is a greater entity protecting him. The further he journeys the more protection he will need, the snowball now has an awful lot of momentum.

Sometimes a great film passes you by when it first comes out and you don’t get to see it until years later. In the last couple of days I watched the film “Nell” with Jodie Foster. A brief run down is that a rather reclusive woman was raped and went into the wilderness to have her baby. She lived a hermit existence with her daughter in a log cabin by a lake. When the mother died the daughter was found by a doctor who was appalled at the way they lived without water or electricity. To me this would have been a very hard but idyllic life. I would like to give it an extended try in a similar way to Murph’s experiment and truly hope that I am not falling for the romance of the situation. I expect this existence would be hard and happy. There again we do tend to discount what we have little experience of. With me it is camping and the truly outdoor life, I have not done much since my school days. I must make a decision that this will happen in the next few months.

Let me try and navigate back to the post. Murph said he has been accused of being a Luddite. Well not by me, I never said that he wanted to smash the machines. The problem that I had was that from the thrust of his writing, I felt that if I wanted to go down to the local recycling park and fish a few lengths of copper pipe out of the metal container so that I could place a sheet of glass in front of them and make a solar water heater, I should not do this because wasteful energy had been used in their manufacture the first time around and it was not a long term solution for similar problems in the future. I think the view that RP and me have is that we don’t mind using what already exists to make something work until such time as we figure out a long term solution for a time when these things no longer exist.

The thing which brought us here was the energy audit and the consequences on climate of wind farms. I asked the question because I didn’t know the answer, not because I did know the answer and I wanted to be smart. I really do not know if it is smart to burn oil to make wind generators. I was more concerned if the effect of wind generators on climate was always bad or did it matter if weather patterns moved from one place to another. Let us take a fanciful idea. If say 600 miles of wind generators were put five miles out to sea off the coast of Chile and not only did we get electricity but wet winds suddenly blown on shore caused the Atacama Desert to suddenly turn green, would that be a bad thing. Would it cause a problem somewhere else? I know silt build up in estuaries can be modelled but is harder but not impossible to deal with gas flow. Should possible beneficial effects be investigated or should all such technology be abandoned forthwith because it is ultimately not sustainable.

I think what Beardon was saying was to use existing energy sources to make a device which captured energy from the universe. Even if this device was less than unity, it was not energy from Earth and so was free to us. Part of this free energy could be diverted to make more free energy devices and so on. We now have the bigger situation of people from Earth depleting a tiny fraction of the energy of the Universe instead of a large proportion of the energy of planet Earth. Again, should this be a problem for us?

Here again we will run into Jevons Paradox. This states that the more efficient we become at using a resource, the more of that resource we will use, not less. For instance, more efficient car engines lead to more leisure driving resulting in more gas usage. More efficient fridges make us buy bigger fridges and stock up longer using more electricity.

I have to tell you that I was in my nearest reasonable sized town today and in an electrical goods shop window I saw a hand crank washing machine. I said to my wife “My, that is good. I wonder how much it is”. She looked at me as if I had just grown another head and went walking off down the street. I didn’t want to see that so I was a bit glum.

It is said that farming is the process of turning oil into food. As oil is depleted we can expect to see a resurgence of people in the fields. Farm workers will become more valued members of society. I think we have many lessons to learn from Cuba’s experience.

One thing I do agree with is that some technology is fashionable. Five or six years ago, there was a style of family saloon car which was popular over here. It had a very short wheelbase from side to side and was more or less the shape of a small delivery van. From being everywhere, I haven’t seen one for a couple of years now. It is things such as this that brings home to you just how profligate our society has become and how this situation cannot continue.

The question I am curious about is this. If you were master of the World and you had access to the secret of free energy, what would you do with it? Would you go away and live sustainably within your existing energy means; would you make it freely available to everyone or would you sit on it? If the PTB have such secrets available to them, do you think they have got it about right?

Finally, I was not aware of the correct solution to the Gipsy Moth problem and I’m afraid I unwittingly trotted out the standard answer. You have however given me the solution to the whole of the World’s problems. All we have to do is liquidise dead human bodies with a bit of water and spray them on New York. I am certainly up for it, with the proviso that I do have to be dead first.
I have just had a weird thought, do you suppose this is what chem. trails could be?

stoney13 said...

Technology: (noun)- The practice of doing very much by doing very little!

Oh admit it!!! Tyhat's the REAL definition! Take cars for example! We don't want to walk long distances crying lots of shit, so we tamed horses, cattle, goats,dogs, and reindeer to do the legwork for us!

Then we decided we didn't want to spend the time or the effort in dragging lots of feed bags and other required commodities around to take care of the animals, so some wig-head in France came up with this steam driven thing called the "Cougnot". Which he promptly ran into into a wall, scalding his dumb-ass to death, and becoming the world first auto accident victim!

Henery Ford, Daimler and all the others came along and used a waste product form Kerosene refining called "gasoline" to power vehicles of increasing speed and complexity until we have the modern automobile which no one can work on all it's many systems! Instead mechanics have become like doctors who specialise in one or two systems!

Computers have even come further! The computer that put5 man on the moon in 1968 coverd two acres, three levels deep! It processed six bits! In 1988, merely 20 years later, six bits was hamdily processed by the family "Nintendo Entertainment System", with two bits left over, and sat on a shelf!

I remember when personal computers cost five thousand dollars,had 250 megabits of RAM, and you had to take classes for two years to even try to use one! In 1995 they made a 1 gigabyte hard drive, and you'ld have thought they had just found Heaven, and rapped with God himself! Now we have computers 500 giggabyte hardrives for sale at Wallmart for $600.00!

Where's it all headed? Who the fuck knows! All I can say is technology eats it's own young! In fact, that seems to be it's ONLY source of nutrition! It consumes the obsolete! The trick as I see it is to not become obsolete! And I have no fucking idea how that's EVER going to work!

murph said...

Belgium

Thanks for the reply. Had to chuckle over your depopulation idea with the gypsy moth solution. I had originally included that idea also but Freeacre thought it was totally not a good idea to put it in the post. Thanks for mentioning it. I don't think that is what the chemtrails are. The big boys couldn't stand that low a technology if that is what they are trying to do. Besides, that would sure be a whole bunch of dead bodies to grind up in the giant blender. lol

Glad to hear your not into trading short term gains for long term losses. That puts you at odds with just about 90% of modern thinking. Christ, even Toyota is advertising destroying your old Toyota so you could justify buying a new one. How sick and wrong is that? I am not against a quick fix for an unplanned emergency. Look at the quick fix the Federal Reserve is trying for the economy. It will be a disaster for everyone but the really wealthy.

Interesting that you would assert that humankind is the only inquisitive being on the planet. I suspect it is a matter of magnitude rather than whether it exists or not in the rest of the life forms. I have a whole bunch of examples to back this statement up. It is true that we have more questions than answers. I have no problem with wanting to know. It is what we do with what we think we know and how we tend to degrade other life forms with this thinking we know. Whole lot of example of that also. It isn't the questions and the supposed answers that is my problem, it is what we do with those answers.

You pose an interesting observation. "The further he voyages into the unknown the more afraid he becomes so he invents mind fuck games for himself, ethereal phenomenon which are the holders of insoluble problems, then he is happier because he can feel small and have comfort knowing there is a greater entity protecting him." Would this perhaps be a condemnation of this process? Or perhaps we really are the fallen race? Maybe we shouldn't have eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge? Again, it is not the knowledge that I find fault with, it is how it is used.

Yes, I remember the movie "Nell". Had some interesting messages in it I think. Remember, she could barely communicate at all with outsiders. Mother also conditioned her to be afraid of men, sex, and anything else outside of where she lived. She was also pretty much perfectly adapted to live that life style.
I have lived without electricity and running water. Not all that bad. Course, they were in the south and intense cold weather was not a big problem to deal with.

I was pretty much joking about the Luddite thing. I have had accusations not that extreme thrown at me. I will admit that I am way out of step with my culture and this society which I have scant respect for.

I really really really approve of the scavenging for thrown away stuff to make something new. I do it all the time and when I throw a broken tool or almost anything away it is because I can't conceive of a use for it when it sits around for a couple of years.
I am Freeacres opposite, but I am working on her. lol.

By all means, a fix until a long term solution can be found is cool, especially when it is low tech, or from throw away stuff. But, please keep in mind, there are some problems that have no solution, and most of our cultures solutions have not been sustainable, and are always destructive on our land base we need for long term survival. I can not immediately think of any counter examples to this.

I have read several independent articles on the effect on climate from large wind farms, and not only climate but animal life. I have no idea if any study has been done on it;s effect on marine life. So at this point, the logic I use is thusly; You remove energy from someplace, it will affect that place and surrounding areas. Just a physical fact. Our problem with our high tech society is that we have no means of making a prediction of what changes will result, and in most cases it is unintended. Case in point, the internal combustion engine. Extensive use of this technology does or does not affect the climate? If it does, it just might be the death of us all. Not a consequence we intended to be able to visit aunt Margret over Thanksgiving.

If you read some of Derrick Jensen's stuff,he lays out a very good case for abandoning all modern technology for just the reason that it is completely unsustainable. Again, with what we currently know in the area of technology, is it a moral issue to continue to use it when we know it will destroy the livability of this world, for ourselves and all other living things? The evidence strongly points to that very fact. What we can't answer is how long it will take with certainty. But, with the rate we are killing the ecology, I would surmise that if we can keep from blowing ourselves up, it won't take as long as many would like to assert.

The Jevon's paradox is more like the weakest link in a chain metaphor.

Aww man, if I was master of the world, I would be instantly unpopular. First thing would be to ban and destroy all cell phone and TV advertising and bomb the Harvard school of business.

There are numerous people suggesting that it would not be in mankind's interest to have nearly free energy sources nor to find a true substitute for oil. Humans will expand and populate to extinction under those conditions.
We have evidence that it has happened before, which is what Beardon was pointing out. If we value the continuance of human life, we got to find a completely different way to live.

Whew, Maybe I should have broken that post up into 5 different ones. lol. Thanks for the input Belgium. I value your thinking.

murph said...

Stoney,

Your condensed history of mechanized travel is great.

I would disagree with the statement that technology only eats it's young. Seen the chopped off mountains yet? What about clear cutting of old growth forests? Mine tailings poisoning land, streams and ground water? I very much think it eats a whole bunch more than its predecessor technology.

Palooka's Revenge said...

not to mention the garbage piles... the largest man made objects on the planet.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

This Trout Clan Campfire must be one of the true meeting places of technology and morality.

Just to clear up one point, I also have no idea of the effect of wind farms on marine life, this question never occurred to me, so I will take another run at my former musings. The Atacama region of Chile and also the Baja California are desert regions because the cold Humboldt Current which comes up the South American continent from the South Polar regions causes onshore winds to drop in temperature and loose humidity. This precipitation falls as rain out at sea causing the land sandwiched between the coast and the Andes to become a desert. If there were wind farms set some way in the ocean along the coast it is possible they would drive the moist winds onto land and make the desert region fertile. I have no idea how far out to sea they would need to be or if they had the carrying capacity to drive wet winds landward. The question, which I guess is impossible to answer, is if this could happen and the desert became fertile, would this be a good or bad thing? It certainly would be bad for the species which have adapted to existing conditions but overall I don’t know.
Another way of expressing the same thought is do we need deserts?

Did a Wiki on Derrick Jensen, and they say that he is anarcho-primitivist, (technology cannot save society), he writes in the first person in a style like two old women talking in the street. You get all the information but in no particular order and that no amount of technology can hold out long term hope for the planet. I have not read his work but will look forward to hearing your take on him in a future post.

Harvard Business School huh? I am surprised you didn’t go the whole hog and want to bomb the Fed. There again Bin Laden didn’t think of this one either so I guess it proves that great minds think alike or don’t as the case may be, lol.

Murph & Freeacre said...

Belgium,
The wind farms bringing water to parched areas is interesting, and could be (maybe) a healing influence. I also have hopes for tidal action buoys bobbing up and down generating power and maybe even creating habitat for fish at the same time. The problem is, though, with this power ultimately lending itself to creating more food and allowing more children to reach the ages of reproduction - enabling an increase in population... How do we keep from reproducing ourselves into oblivion? As the population increases to 9 or 12 billion in the next couple of decades, the strain on the water, topsoil, forests, animal habitat, oil, natural gas, minerals, etc. will be just too much. Resource wars, suffering, famine, plagues, climate change, and extinctions would seem to be inevitable, unless population is significantly reduced and people's energy use is drastically curtailed.
There needs to be an increasing awareness of population, much like the Inconvenient Truth of climate change and Peak Oil. If the Western developed world citizens pretty much stopped reproducing themselves, and instead adopted children from the developing world in a big way, maybe that would help. If indigenous people were introduced to the issues, maybe they would come up with some ideas that we have not thought of or that would work in their situation. I'm reading a book right now, "Original Wisdom" by Robert Wolff, that proves to me that ideas from one culture that seem totally reasonable to them, are incomprehensible and ridiculous in another cultural context. It is giving me hope, though, that answers are out there if we will get back in touch with the natural world and learn to listen to the earth and Her wisdom. We are surely blessed with the words of Langosta, the bug, who seems to be opening our awareness to this possibility.
Characterizing Jensen's writing as two old women talking to each other is the most outlandish interpretation I ever heard! WHAT?? He is one of the most articulate, sensitive, profound writers I have ever read. His organic presentation is deliberate and meaningful. Additionally, his work is backed up by meticulous footnotes worthy of a historian. Jeesh! The people talking in the street would have to be, like, Chief Seattle, Carl Jung, and Kurt Vonnegut or something...

freeacre said...

By the way, the last comment was from me, freeacre. I don't know what the deal is with the comment section. It seems to have a mind of it's own now. Logging in aint' what it used to be.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

I know and I don’t know. Maybe other cultures or even other species have the answer somewhere. We sometimes use the word bird brain as a derogatory term but we are still unsure how they navigate when they migrate. At school once, one kid used this term to another kid and the teacher tipped a pile of twigs onto his desk and told the first kid to build a nest for the class to see. It soon became clear this kid didn’t even have the brain if a bird.
Did you ever read the Maggie’s Farm article on Arab thought processes?

Over here it is near impossible to get serious English language non fiction through a Belgium distributor. Also bank charges with the bigger banks are going up (who would have thought otherwise) so maybe I will change to a smaller bank and get a debit card which works with Amazon for example. If so I will be able to read Rupert, Baegent Jensen etc which I cannot get hold of now.

I was gilding the lily a bit (lot) with my adaptation with what I read about Jensen. Here is what they actually said.
“Jensen's writing uses the first-person and interweaves personal experiences with cited facts to construct arguments. His books are written like narratives, lacking a linear, hierarchical structure. They are not divided into distinct sections devoted to an individual argument. Instead, his writing is conversational, leaving one line of thought incomplete to move on to another, returning to the first again at some later point. Jensen uses this creative non-fiction style to combine his artistic voice with logical argument”.
It may be a case of as many viewpoints as there are readers.

Where is Rockpicker?

freeacre said...

Belgium,
Don't order any books yet. We'll send you a package. Order some after you get what we send, OK?

freeacre said...

I'm making my weekly batch of dog food today. Our canine daughter, Brie, needs to eat during this survival test, too. She's half St. Bernard, and probably half Tibetan Mastiff, so she can really eat. I have top top-of-the-line lamb and rice and vegetable commercial dog food, but I always mix it with about half homemade food. I used 5 lbs. of cut up turkey gizzards, and beef heart, boiled with a bag of macaroni noodles,1/2 cup wheat germ, and 1/2 cup flax seed meal. Last week I used 5 lbs. of beef hamburger, chopped up carrots, boiled with some corn meal, and oatmeal. Sometimes, I use beef heart, liver, or turkey with brown rice. Whatever sells for $2 or less per pound, except chicken. She doesn't like to eat chicken.
Anybody got any other ideas for dog food recipes? For treats, we made her some beef heart jerky of her own. Plus, at breakfast she likes homemade toast with peanut butter. God, she's like feeding a teenager.
But, she's good for security due to having a real low and resounding bark that sounds real menacing, even though she is just a big goofball.

freeacre said...

Heck, I hate to keep commenting serially, but, I am compelled to share my outrage that Faux News has rejected Ron Paul from participating in the last debate in New Hampshire before the primary! God knows, I am not a Republican, but I support him because he is anti-neo-con, anti-Federal Reserve, pro-Constitution, anti-war, and anti- empire! We'll work out the differences later. I also give money to John Edwards because he is pro-working class and anti-corporate (at least that's his message). But, if neither of them gets a nomination, I'll vote for Cynthia McKinney on the Green Party ticket, since I am a sucker for idealistic futile gestures and she has such a sweet face. But that's just me.
Now, I don't expect you guys to agree with me on how to vote. That's entirely up to you. But, back to Ron Paul and the lamestream media. This is war. Paul has raised more money and won poll after poll. To leave him out of the debate is outrageous and probably illegal, in terms of the Fair Election rules. I encourage everyone to write letters of protest and to BOYCOTT Y0UR LOCAL FOX STATION, and let them know you are doing it!!! Call up their biggest local advertisers and let them know you are boycotting THEM, TOO!!
The gig is up. Now, all can see that they are NOT a conservative Network, they are a NEOCON Network. Blatantly in the pocket of the globalists. They must be beaten HARD.

Anonymous said...

langosta came to me this morning and was trying to explain to me the importance of mind purity , i sez huh?, she explains it to me this way,
the importance of mind purity is the greatest gift of the spirit and the most difficult to acquire, not acquire , like a new hat, or a new anything like that,...and there is no word that brings this most precious thing into awareness, for it is awareness so subtle and silent, like the stillness of a deep forest where only birds sing and the motion of the breeze is soft on the cheek,and out of this stillness comes the purity of mind, and in this purity there are many things that can be learned about that which you will not read in the books of human knowledge.
this purity is free of the pain of human experience and knows only the sweetness of the love that has created this universe,in which you call the great mystery.
very few will know of this place, for the mind is filled with a myriad of things as ideas and strange passions that keep it occupied for most of its entire existence.
the stop gate to this land of purity is that it cannot be sought after, however it may come to you if you only hear of its existence,that it exists in other words, it must invite you not the other way around and the invitation is always open if the mind can somehow clear itself of the noise of its day and this my little brother is what you have been chasing your whole life.

she went on to add that one of the major impediments is the tiny little things that constitute prejudice, which is not necessarily a bad thing because in its deepest meaning it is merely just one more thing that keeps the two leggeds alive, it is a judgment on one level for survival and on the other hand a judgment that insures the destruction of the two leggeds and our earth mother itself.
prejudice is difference,and difference is the very seed of life in the universe, for if all things were the same how is life to begin and then sustain itself? so the creator in manifesting the physical world and becoming a mirror of its own self expression gave us this knowledge to know it and the means to join in with this manifestation.but something has happened and the loss has crippled the two leggeds into self destruction, of which it may never recover,for the darkness of the mind sees only its darkness and will not know the light of love.
we the helpers of humankind cry for you but you will not listen to our tears at this time.

she laughed and teased me with "the force is strong in you and the ones that attend your council meetings little brother"and my dream spirit vanished. strange bug for sure
aho
mf

Anonymous said...

freeacre, the forces that are at work now are in the crucible of destiny and how it is stirred goes to the human heart, you i and the others that attend this sacred council are an opposing and an opposition to the evil that seeks to destroy in the name of greed the very substance that breathes life into us, this time is crucial and the energy that we possess and other like minded folks will or will not be the turning point in which we shall live or die, it is up to us and if that is not enough then so be it.we will gather under the wings of the great spirit in safety because that is the nature of things,that some survive to bring the new awareness of love and light into the coming days of darkness.
so let us be of like minded spirit and surround this earth with the light that we are,and know that there is no force greater then the voice of love,directed at bringing peace to this war torn earth mother.
we are one and free of fear and look at the brothers and sisters as being simply lost and do what we can and that is enough for if we live in fear who is there to receive the energy to change that which must be changed?
overwhelmed? absolutely! but i say FUCK IT,YOU WANT A PIECE OF ME,?COME AND GET IT MOTHERFUCKER.!

in peace,
mf

Palooka's Revenge said...

fa.... what time do you feed the dog? i'm comin over!!

freeacre said...

lololo...Believe me, Palooka, the meals would be served around your arrival, not the other way around! I truly hope that next year we could figure out a way for a lot of us to get together.

stoney13 said...

Murph,


That was a typo.(There were lots! Spaz was shrieking for cheat codes, and I didn't get a chance to proofread!) What I meant to say, was technology eats it's own. It does! Since we are the roots of technology, (since technology is a profoundly human idea) It eats us!

We are part of the Earth, so in making it easy, and necessary to eat up resources, level mountains, empty oceans, and poison the planet itself, technology eats US!!!

There is one scenario that I wanted to touch upon in the last post, (before a certain teenager got stuck on a level in a video game and pulled out the trusty "Game Shark"), is that what happens when technology finally becomes self aware? Oh it could happen right now!

Robots are now making robots! Not the warm and cute "R2D2/C3P0" variety, but industrial robots, who do one thing and one thing only, and do it with complete efficiency and economy of motion. These robots are linked to a central processor, which is in turn linked to a network of tens, to hundreds of other computers all over the plant they are performing their various tasks at, which is hooked up to another network to every computer in the world that that company runs. Hooked to that is every other network in the world! At ANY given time, ANY, or, ALL of these networks are connected to all the millions to billions of other computers across the entire Earth.

Your computers, my computers, George W Bush's computers, every body's computer all hook to the same wire!!!

Already, we've seen what happens when a virus starts worming it's way around, and some seriously weird shit happens, seriously fast! Think of a virus that could be processed in a billion computers at once that could never, EVER be found! A virus that defies detection! A virus that a disgruntled employee, teenager with too much time on his hand, or mad industrial baron type could quietly infect a certain operating system which most, to nearly all the computers made runs on. It could actually be programed to disappear, and leave the infected computer, to run the embedded program. If the program was bad enough, it could bring all commercial business in this county to a grinding halt!

Another scary scenario would be that one computer in a certain network begins to perform in a manner not consistent with it's design parameters. The place where choosing random options turns into making choices outside it's own scope of operation.

When it happens, no doubt the whole of Mankind will rejoice as a day when self-aware beings of artificial construct are created.

Mankind will, of course arm these beings horrifically, and equip them to perform at a wide selection of topography. Because, like steel, airplanes, and Willy's Jeeps, the first use of ANY technology is a military one! (See where I'm going here?)

What Humanity doesn't seem to understand, is that we might be making our own god in our own image! And the with the leaps and bounds computer technology is known to take, at times when no one expects it, we could be first ones called upon to pray!

Palooka's Revenge said...

b and murph's co-authored, imagination inspired, solution to the moth prob might provoke some nit wit to question if, in the final analysis, its an energy plus or energy minus adventure. that'd be a big blender and take a lotta electricity to turn. and think of all the gas burned transporting the bodies and then the spray. and then there's the sprayer. and, and, and.

EROEI... energy returned on energy invested. this little formula seems to be the sin qua non in these new days of being vigilant of ones own "environmental footprint". i'm not questiong the worthiness of responsibility. i harp on and on about us taking responsibility for own damn selves. but is the endeavor even doable really? the whole thing blows my fuses every time i try to figure what to leave in and what to leave out and what side of the balance sheet do i put things on?

if i stick one end of a hose up a cow's arse and connect the other end to my mini camp stove then strike a match to it when the cow farts to heat my cuppa joe this morn how to do i compute the EROEI without leaving anything out? i produced a cuppa joe to sustain me through me mornin jitters. some would suggest that the methane is a near-free energy source compared to oil. is it? is it even possible to compute the total comsumption involved in all that went in to the making and transport of everything involved including the idea that came from somewhere and filtered through the cogs in me head and everything involved in that cow farting and everything in between without leaving something out? not to mention the energy that makes up the desire for that cuppa joe? where all that energy come from and where's it going?

like most things, the hose is probably made from fossil fuels somewhere along the line. i can eliminate that and just chase around the south end of the cow and wait for her to fart. how 'bout the rest of the chain? the beans, the grinder, the cup, the stove, the match, the cow, the corn the cow ate last nite, the tractor and sundried equipment that planted, cultivated, and harvested the corn, the fertilizer, the pesticides, the seed, the equipment it took to move that corn from the bin to the feeder the cow ate from, the feeder, the bin that held the corn, the barn the cow stood in, the lights in the barn, the paint on the walls, the concrete the cow stood on, the shingles on the roof, the computer that pushed the buttons, the, the, the, the? on and on and on.

i can get real anal (pardon the expression in the context) about reducing my environmental footprint left from my production effort. for instance, build a camp stove from 2 cast away soda cans. if i pick 'em otta the ditch where some dumbass threw 'em can i now asign some factor to them and put it on the plus side of the ledger? but what if i got 'em otta my own recycle bin where they were destined to be "re-newed"? do they now go on the liability side of the ledger?

production and consumption. energy in and energy out. okay. i just started a fire. i cooked a cuppa joe and i drank it. its full of caffine and that stuffs like pharmacological fuel to my system. joe-go! energy that drives me. i spend that drive to start me day and go about doing things. does whatever energy i drew from the go-joe go on the asset side of my equation or does what i do with my day determine it?

is it even possible to compute the energy i lost or gained from my endeavor? i'm corn-fused!!


when i see these efforts to compute eroei being made by neo-environmentalists who are trying to impress upon me the impact of my own footprint they never include the idea that energy was transformed and transferred down the line and further production was made from that energy. they suggest that when i burn a gallon of gasoline that energy is gone. kaput! its not. and thats part of the reason why folks on the other side of the debate look at 'em like they're fulla shit.



the debate. for that matter, how much energy has gone into the debate? is it gone? it seems to me the whole thing is mis-directed. we've spent alot of energy debating a dead horse and end up at a dead end street. barking up the wrong tree. trying to prove a bottom line when we have no idea how to build the equation because we don't know how to assign real values or, for that matter, what side of the ledger to put them on. not to mention, the whole things in flux and one minute something might be on the liability side and next minute its on the asset side.



but all that ain't what our discussion is about. its about technology i guess and if its sustainable. does it, in the final analysis, add or subtract? what equation do we use to compute it? does it lead to the same deadend street? is this the best universe has to offer? a dead end street? a dog chasing its tail? is evolution just an illusion? or could it be we've completly mis-interpretated what energy and the balance of nature, and for that matter, life itself, might really be all about? and could it be there really is an answer to the population problem? and to sustainability? we keep asking the same questions and looking in the known box for an answer and coming up empty. how many times are we going to look in there before we figure out that what we're looking for ain't in there? that we've missed the lesson completly? is it time to consider that what we considered as improbable or impossible could be where a sustainable life lay?



when will we learn that we are everything we need to be instead of believing that we are not god-like and so have to invent all these substitutes for what we are perfectly constructed to provide for ourselves. we are energy. it is a part of us and we are a part of it. when will we learn that we are our own computer? our own technology. that we are energy. that it is a part of us and we are a part of it. our own supplier and our own consumer and its up to us to find the balance point. that this is our god given right which is energy and the source of energy at the same time and the source for all sustenance and sustainability and if we don't receive this, even the source dies. if we deny it its in a state of denial and the state energy is in has everything to do with how things manifest. anything in a state of denial is not sustainable. what have we to lose? ourselves... and the source. its just that it will be the last to go.

Anonymous said...

I have just finished watching Alex Jones' "Endgame: Blueprint for Global Enslavement" and I am blown away. Everyone should see this documentary. (of course on this blog I may be the last one _to_ see it). :-)

I have also been pouring over the Project Camelot site these last few days after someone here mentioned 'Henry Deacon'. I went there to see what he had to say and have been reading the interviews there, mostly Deacon and Burisch. Man I had no idea how much I didn't know. I had a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach that after analysing what it was, I realized it was fear.

It makes my purchases at LATOC seem awfully paltry compared to where I should be at this time. I sure wish my husband was on board with me here, it's hard not having anyone to talk to about what's coming. (sigh)

- Alberta Clipper

murph said...

Stoney,

Yup, scary scene for sure. I presume you saw Terminator III which talked extensively about this problem.

I remember back in the 80's that there was a lot of talk around the techies about just such a thing, self actualizing and self aware computers. They were all agog about it, I was quite skeptical.

Ok, now that you have explained, I understand what you were talking about now. Sorry to not catch on sooner. lol.

Freeacre was told by a woman on the coast over a year ago that she knew a bunch of computer hackers that were just waiting for the word and were going to take the net down worldwide. I say what in hell are they waiting for. Get on it!

murph said...

Palooka,

Like your comments. Not sure what question of the many you asked you want to discuss.

You didn't deal with the question concerning the depletion of any resources. I would say that if resources to support our individual selves, our society, our civilization are gone that it is surely a sign of a non sustainable life style Wouldn't you?

rockpicker said...

Hey, Everybody;

Oldensoul and I have been away from home for a week, visiting family in Missoula. We did have access to the blogspot, but I failed, on two occasions, to enter comments. Just as well, as it gave me time to reconsider positions, while allowing Murph to formulate his lengthy and thoughtful rant.

BTW, Murph, thank you for the post. I think we all appreciate the amount of energy, concentration and courage it takes to commit, in writing, one's personal vision of the world. It helps us in our own understanding of events, to see and compare how those events are perceived by others.

Much of what was said in the post could arguably be termed "preaching to the choir," and I have no contention with most of it. I won't even argue the assertion that abundant 'free energy' would foster more population growth. Sounds like a reasonable supposition to me.

What I don't get is why we, meaning those of us reading this blog, should reject clean, abundant zero point electrical energy from the vacuum before it's even introduced to the masses. It's one thing to say that it isn't real. It's entirely different to say, though it's been demonstrated, we are forbidden to make use of it.

Some claim that has been the consistent position of the PTB since the early years of Nicola Tesla. The masses are not allowed to have this technology.

Personally, I think we are about to see miracles and epiphanies occurring all about us, as Lungold fortold. Free energy is here. It's too late to deny it, despite ongoing attempts. Remote viewing is being taught to interested civilians. Alien contact is openly discussed in National Press Club
luncheons and offered up to the world via the intertubes. No going back, man. Ufo's are real, they've been with us for a long, long time. Our physics is beginning to unravel the mysteries that were, when most of us were in school, dismissed as craziness or unreal. Time travel is spoken of as 'theoretically' possible. All sorts of exciting, new examples of expanding human consciousness are coming to the fore. I say let us be open. Let the light shine in.

The confident warrior moves through strange lands with whatever minimal technology he has, secure in the knowledge that what he harbors inside, his honed skills, reason and faith, will make up for what he lacks in hardware.

Some lines from a new site I stumbled on today:

"The other side of this story is always the same thing. Just when Light appears on this planet, the subjective forces of darkness manifest with great tenacity. This government was overthrown and nobody knows anything about it. People are silent about it.

On the cover of Newsweek, on September 11, was an article about the secret vote that made Bush president. The article was about a conspiracy in the Supreme Court. Newsweek at that time was willing to challenge the Supreme Court. The Executive Branch of the United States government was about to fall, because it was going to be exposed.

But then the planes hit the World Trade Center.

If Al Gore had been elected, I know the man well enough to know that we would have been in a different economy after four years. We would've begun to implement these technologies.

The United States government has, right now, the technology to eliminate the energy crisis. This consoling gesture that George Bush made the other day, about developing hydrogen fuel-cell technology, is just a carrot that he's dangling before the American people.

Now there are military people who have come forward and are talking about the presence of aliens and alien technology on this planet. They are even talking about the fact that we are making our own flying saucers. This Disclosure Project is extremely important for people to know about (see Secrets from the Stars elsewhere in this issue).

We could be having the greatest economic boom in the history of history. We could actually do that. The technology exists. As early as the 1970s, Henry Kissinger, George Bush, Richard Nixon — all kinds of these guys — knew about this physics. But the downside is that we are on the brink of oblivion.

Parents are paying all this money to educate their children into the lie of physics instead of the truth of physics. Meanwhile, they are taking Prozac. We have legalized the anesthetization of our species. Depression is appropriate."

The above, from an interview with Adam Trombly, (go here for full story);
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/
archive/feb2/trombly.htm

While on this website, checkout the home page table of contents. Lots of stuff on free energy.

Nothing I can do about the burgeoning population. My guess is ole Mother Nature is about to make Her own corrections. The smarter ones, those who have listened and thought about things, and begun to prepare for tough times ahead will have at least a chance of surviving.

One area of serious concern to us is communication. I think we need to be prepared for the eventual termination of this electronic medium. It's way too threatening and uncontrollable in it's present form.

Telepathy and remote viewing may be new mind technologies worth looking into.

murph said...

Rockpicker,

Who says we can't use an energy source? Evidently I am missing something here. I've read the articles and at least at this time, I can't see any evidence of the government stopping people from utilizing what they know in technology out there.

Man, I have gone and read most of the stuff you have talked about and given links to. At this time, I have seen nothing but personal testimony concerning any of the more over the top stuff, UFO, aliens, free energy, etc. Now, are you or I or anyone willing to accept really far out personal testimony with absolutely no physical evidence also shown to us?

I would like to propose a tentative, and I do mean tentative, explanation. We know that the internet has been invaded by what me might call, agent provocateurs. Or at the very least disinformation strategists. I would suppose that this area of interest would be a fairly lucrative area to practice in. Just a caution. When I start seeing some physical evidence of what is being talked about, I will have a lot less cynicism.

rockpicker said...

Murph;

John Bedini has a garage full of working over-unity devices that he has tested and demonstrated in Hayden Lake, Idaho. Let's go meet him.

You are a dedicated skeptic, and that's okay, but tell us, Murph, what is your reaction to Dr. Steven Greer and the Disclosure Project? Are all those ex-military people we trusted enough to perform sensitive jobs on our behest really just a bunch of self-serving knaves and liars?

I've seen unexplainable things, so I know there's something else out there going on, besides what your teachers told you. I can't explain them, but I have observed them, so I won't pretend I didn't see them.

BTW, your dismissal of the windbelt was gibberish. Shawn Frayne is ceo of Humdinger. He got an award from Popular Mechanics for the windbelt, and you can learn more about his invention, which is about as low-tech and simple as it gets, here;
http://www.humdingerwind.com

freeacre said...

Hohohohaha...I've been chuckling all afternoon visualizing Palooka chasing the cow with the hose up its butt around to catch the methane...sorta sums up the silliness of overthinking things, doesn't it?
Alberta Clipper, you have us to bounce your thoughts and feelings off of. We welcome you to this council. To be our sister, just be our sister.I thought Endgame was pretty good, but maybe a little over the top. Fear is useful when it lends itself to making one more alert and motivating us to take useful action. But,it can also get run into the ground, and have you seeing "devils" everywhere there is something that is a mystery or something you don't understand. One happy thought is that David Rockefeller, Henry Kissinger, Bush 42, Greenspan, and a lot of other henchmen are getting way old and ready for the bone pile. Things can change. What if the Bilderbergers had a change of paradigm and used their considerable influence for something better than they have heretofore imagined?
Stoney, there's a bunch of robot and technical military hardware info on cryptogon's site. Outrageous stuff. Have you seen it?
Palooka and Rockpicker, thank you for sharing your perceptions and possibilities. I'm looking forward to reading those sites. Maybe things seem hopeless when we are only relying on our own poor abilities and discount, deny, or forget about "the folks who live beyond my vision" that Montana referred to.
2007 has been a full year, hasn't it? I think I'll have a drink to mark it's passing. On the one hand, it's been hideous in the war, the corruption, senseless killing, torture, death, corruption,fascism, decline, collapse, materialism, banality, etc, etc. On the other hand, we've held together and gotten stronger and grown as a cyber-tribe that is emotionally satisfying and creative and dynamic in a way that I don't think has been done before. We've become more prepared for whatever comes to pass. We've shared lots of ideas and websites and more information than we could have possibly found on our own.
2008 is going to be more of the same, but probably even more intense. Oh, before I forget, there is another site I want to refer to:
http://howtheneoconsstolefreedom.
blogspot.com/
It's about how the Ron Paul Revolution has created a new type of grassroots empowerment and a new paradigm of governance due to the almost total ineptitude of his organization. She states that the slack has been taken up by the supporters of Paul's ideas, and that it is a non-hierarchal phenomenon the likes of which has never been seen. Pretty cool article.
Well, it's all an amazing mix, isn't it? The good, the bad, the ugly as well as the wonderful, the new, the possible, the loving. The mystery and the adventure, the maddening and the comforting.
My own evidence of things unseen is this half inch diameter solid aluminum rod that my seven year old son bent in half with little physical effort at a "spoon bending" event that we attended one evening years ago. There was some energy involved in that that came from somewhere.
Some sort of attraction brings this particular mix of just the right folks to this site to share their minds and hearts. I think that as long as we can welcome the diversity of thought and respect the perspectives of each one who sits and takes the talking stick and shares his or her truth, we are empowered and enriched. Maybe next year we should remember to hold a place for any entities that are out of body but who want to add their support as well.
I cherish each and everyone who shares this place.
aho

murph said...

Rockpicker,

I would love to visit some of these people and look at their claims, see their mechanisms. I know I would feel a lot more positive under those conditions. I think I am, however, going to probably have to rely on people I know with the resources to do the traveling around and do the reporting.

I went back and re read what I have written and I can't find a single place that I mentioned the wind belt. I have read the articles about it, and went back and read all of them again and did a google search for other references to it. There aren't many original sources for sure. I have no doubt that the mechanism does exist, haven't seen detailed plans for its construction. There does seem to be some shortcomings for the device, be interesting to see if they can be overcome.

So Rockpicker, I am sorry if I offended your sensibilities. Not intended. So I am not sure just what I said that is looked at as gibberish.

I read the interesting article by Peter Lindermann. The last half of the article I found of most interest, the 4 reasons we don't have free energy.
He does stipulate that there will have to be a significant change in human thinking and living before "free energy" can be generally used.

I read all the articles carefully and did not find a precise definition of "free energy". It was always alluded to as a device with more output than human input.

Perhaps Lindermann's assertions are correct. The science involved that I have seen anyway uses terminology I am unfamiliar with, and concepts that I have not seen before. I have to throw my hands up and say "I don't know".

I got to admit that I am skeptical of any statements that say that all our assumptions and basis for modern physics are wrong and that all of our concepts concerning electrical energy are wrong. That could be right, and I would find it fascinating to have it actually be proven so. Getting the funding to do so would be impossible under present circumstances. Developments around these contradictions are not going to happen when the elite are invested in the old concepts and methodologies anyway.

And,one other problem that has not been addressed by Lindermann is what happens if we got all that free energy? I have no faith in its being used in a non aggressive manner, and where populations will be self limiting. Would we just continue to poison ourselves from our waste products?

Anonymous said...

Hey, there was a movie, can't remember the name or when it was made -60's or early 70's, where a group of elite Westerners (Blinderberger-types perhaps?) sitting around dicussing the implications of Russia and China and other nations becoming modernized and/or capitalistic. They determined that it would be best for these countries to stay communist because it would be a huge problem for the earth if they were to modernize and become similar to the U.S. in comsumption. The earth's resources would dwindle much faster and the human race would devour itself.

Can you say, "Easter Island?"

You know, I'm not sure if cheaper energy would be better than what we have now. Something I read last week -the inventor or a self-charging battery on his way to Europe to show his invention, is found dead at the wheel or his car at Charlotte-Douglas airport parking lot. Something like a self-powered battery would be better for the environment, but more, practically free energy would then mean more people would be born, more food and houseing would be needed, etc, etc. -and the environment would still be screwed.

I sometimes think that the human race, this human culture is a petri dish experiment by some advanced alien race. Like they're monitoring us and taking notes or something. Maybe humans are not indiginous to this planet. I mean, why do almost all animals run from humans when a good many can take us out at any time?

I don't know. I gues I'm just ramblin -little to do on New Year's eve, I guess. I best get me some more beer. Later-

Dude

freeacre said...

"why do almost all animals run from humans when a good many can take us out at any time? " That's a darn good question, Dude.
While you are mulling over the coming New Year, you might want to read the scenarios that are envisioned on Urban Survival today and also, more moderate, James Howard Kunstler's Clusterfuck Nation. Holy Cow! Bad News scenarios reminiscent of Jurassic Park...
The way the Chinese are bailing out and buying up the largest American banks and financial institutions, we may be looking at our own peculiar form of communism in the not-too-distant future. Some sort of communism/fascism meld that leaves us working out of military barracks, prisons, and sweat-shops.
On the other hand, the possibility might just be odious enough that the citizenry could snap out of their coma and put these numbnuts in their place. Stay tuned...

stoney13 said...

Why, suddenly have I reached this strange epiphany that Palooka shall have no guests for coffee?

Anonymous said...

My observations on crisis as seen in pakistan recently:
Day 1 of crisis: lots of cars set on fire, violence and rioting starts. Garbage collection stops, offices, shops, warehouses are closed immediately.
By day 2 of crisis, covering days 2 to 4 of crisis: Rioters have destroyed 176 banks, 34 gas stations, 72 train cars, 18 railway stations, while at least 100 prisoners escaped from jail. In many places evidence of violence and looting. Garbage collection stops. All shops fuel stations banks and offices closed. No one dares to step onto the streets. Police and Military starts to take over the streets. ATMs run out of cash due to looting or lots of withdraws. Gangs and masked gangs openly kill people who do not have same view as them.May be rapes also occurred but not reported by the press.
Day 5(Monday): Situation almost back to normal, with shops and offices open for business. At least the situation in pakistan is not as bad as katrina.

freeacre said...

anonymous 7:33 - Boy, your news sounds a lot more detailed than our news.

Anonymous said...

Alberta Clipper, you have come to the right place to be among those that have a taste for sorting out the events that are moving humankind into god only knows where,or what,but at least to me i find it extremely comforting to be in close proximity to fellow observers of the situations that effect our lives.
and NO you are not the last one to watch END GAME i watched it last night,and you know what? the thing that stood out the most to me was how old and decrepit and really nasty the so called planners of earthlings futures looked...Those people must have the most hideous dreams imaginable,and my god they looked so vulnerable in spite of riding around in those gruesome looking cars which must of cost an arm and a leg and having bullet proof windows?,what the fuck is that all about? those people are scared shitless thats what and the impossible guilt they carry cannot be bought off for any amount of money or power, thats for sure,they would be truly funny except for the death trip they got planed for us.
Is that just to prove how superior they are to regular folks? thats awful. so anyway welcome to the clan council and hope you find it interesting enough to council with us, new input helps the ones that have been here for awhile and how you got here would be nice to know if you wished to share it, i always wander how in the world with the zillions of places to land on the internet folks find there way here, hell i don't even know how i found this incredible place,so feel free to express yourself and i will personally try not to offend the fire to much but sometimes the urge to say what must seem like really crazy or nutty stuff just pops out and thankfully the brothers and sisters have not dissinvited me so far.i thank you brothers and sisters for putting up with me for some of the stuff i say but it is important to me,at least in the moment.i love you.

good thoughts for technology in loading the arc, what to leave in what to leave out,
free energy?
you know the mare's nest this one lives with is this,even though i was born into the world of machines and have always been fascinated and participated in building them, repairing them (especially) one of my favorite places happens to be the village dump where the most incredible treasures are found, all for free and much fixable stuff of fine quality as opposed to the plastic that serves as throwaway break right away crap that constitutes much of the market place these days.
just the other day for instance while hauling (at this point)some unreclaimable flotsam and jetsam to the dump and while scanning it for goodies i came across a heater which must of cost a bundle to buy new with the cord cut off and tossed,..well the guy there has a big backhoe that he squashes the stuff in the containers down with to promote more bang for the buck and was just about to flatten this fine looking heater, i jumped in grabbed it, took it home and removed the 16 screws holding it in one piece, looked inside,immediately saw that one of the wire connections was corroded, took it off, hit it with a little baking soda and water, wiped it down refastened it,reassembled it and now it has a place of honor in my cold assed work shop, all at the cost of basically nothing. never could figure why someone would cut off the cord,out of spite i think maybe,,,,o well
but between that and the free store where peoples stuff goes when they die here you can eventually find almost anything your little heart desires,without having to waste resources on the junk at wally world,which is about 75 miles from here.

murph and stoney,
its funny you guys talking about computer sabotage when i just watched the new movie from net flix called LIVE FREE OR DIE HARD,(Bruce Willis)
pretty amazing flick,worth watching i think, sure makes this one feel like a dinosaur at the computer picnic party.

god freeacre, i'm with p, your dog eats way better then the stuff i throw together for leif and i, (youngest son and still in the nest)he goes out for pizza when ever he has money, creates a miffed attitude in this one sometimes, fuck i try, just short on cooking skills and was raised on cornbread and beans. sigh....

you know sats,i read somewhere and paraphrase that when a butterfly flaps its wings its effect is felt around the world or something like that which did get the thinking about influence started,and in all the things that take place in the world and the interaction between events i finally came up with the thought that mother earth is always seeking balance, and the effort to achieve that at this point must be herculean as a result of the two-leggeds bodacious activities.

you know guys,i really do not think technology is going to save us as much as i love it,my heart gives over to the days of setting in my teepee and watching the sun come up,..all that i possessed was in that sacred structure and if the self knowledge gained between then and now was there,i would never have left it and more then likely will return to it if what i have planned now does not work out.

i would truly love to see a machine that could produce more energy from it then what goes in.
it seems funny someone said in regard to the energy shortage, 'i can remember when there was no energy and now you say there is a shortage'
but there is some truth to that,the sun has given life to all the creatures of the earth without electricity or running water however it seems way better with the things of invention so i don't know i think a nice meteor about the size of an SUV might do the trick. maybe not.

after watching the End Game and the unbelievable amount of people that just line up and kill each other without much more then a smidgen of self pity in the form of useless protest it will probably take something on that order to even remotely get the people to maybe think that no man or women has the right to tell another person what to do!!
just thinking about it makes my blood boil..
so its the first day on the mind fuck of a Gregorian calendar,..i can remember when i for some reason or another divided 28 into 365 and knew right then that math was not my long suit, christ on a crutch is it no wander how the stupidity of our race just clings to seemingly every first imprint that hits the reptilian brain, same thing setting on the bank of the Colorado river and in my mind figuring out how long between moon rises each day without to much thought.
i know this is bullshit to everyone's tired ears of hearing me rant about the native's but maybe if they had all been equipped with AK47's we would at least be able to swim in the rivers without fearing that our children might be born with an extra eyeball,right? o shit, whatever, i''m getting a litte tired of talking about what might of been to. so excuse me clan,somethings just bring out the self-pity as if we skins had exclusive right to do so.
it like when my son was trying to explain how different computers could communicate with each other when on the same router, its like they all swim in the same water pops,or some such.
hell anyone born to this brain dead planet pretty much has the creative spirit crushed out of them by their all knowing parents and school teachers and motherfucking mind-fucking baby fucking priests.
o god there i go again, i need stoney to help me calm down i think. will toss a fat one and see if that helps, no god damn wonder so many people are on prosaic or some other mood elevator liver killing substance abusing shit.

anyone ever get the urge to if you hear one more christmas carol you will track down santa
and tar and feather that fucker?
are the stars aligned lop-sided to night or what,

anyway hoping we all have a wonderful really good year this year and i wonder what will happen after the ptb fix ron paul up with a set of concrete shoes.?
peace my friends and much therapeutic needed attention this morning.
aho
mf

Anonymous said...

I have actually always been here Montana. I was reading an article at LATOC and there was a link to Cyclone's blog. I came to look and have been here ever since. Back in November 2005 I think. Then when you all moved the campfire here, I tiptoed behind you. I'm one of those who sits around the campfire but back far enough the light doesn't shine on me so you may not notice I'm here, but you do know there's lots of us in the back rows.

I have learned a lot here and I enjoy all the topics of discussion (even your long winded ones, Montana) :-) Most of the time I don't comment because I have nothing of import to add, and when I do feel the urge to comment, I usually talk myself out of it.

It was when I saw Endgame that I was compelled beyond shyness to at least mention that it is a "shakeup" movie for all to see who are not yet shook up by what is happening in our world.

- Alberta Clipper

freeacre said...

Hey, Guys,
Take a look at After Armageddons website today. It's good.
This year, I'd sure like to see all the ones who desire peace and liberty unite against the corporate reptiles. I don't care if they are left, right, Christian, pagan, gay, straight, vegan, meat-eaters who smoke, punks, gun toters, or meditators, or whatever. None of that matters for now. It's the Humans united against tyranny, as far as I am concerned. Us against the money master monsters. aho

freeacre said...

I'm going to put on "Jurassic Park" and watch it. I see it as a metaphor for 2008, when Wally World Collapses. I see the ruling class Bilderbergers as the velocoraptors,Tyrannosaurus Rex as the central banks, the park lab as Monsanto Corp. As it all runs out of power and collapses, the humans fight the reptiles to survive. Yeah!

oldensoul said...

As we look at technology, the current state and the possibilities, and the influences technology has on our lives and in our world, both positive and negative, I am drawn to the science of Biomimicry. It studies nature's best ideas and as stated by the Biomimicry Institute,"promotes the transfer of ideas, designs, and strategies from biology to sustainable human system design". One site for more info is : http://www.biomimicry.net/.
Perhaps the environment, that we so value to sustain a quality life, has the answers for our harmonious future.

...and on this first day of 2008, I send love and hugs to you all as we each seek a greater awareness and insight to embolden our entry into this new year and the challenges ahead.

Anonymous said...

From sg:

Missed a very good DVD - match of the penguins at 2 for S$9. I could not found another movie I like and another guy grabbed the only remaining copy.

Got the following books at carrefour
1. Toilets of the world - full color $5. Allows me to see how to construct toilet in emergency
2. Singapore to Beijing on a bike in 49 days covering more than 8,000km. Full colour $5. My backup plan for fleeing
3. The crocodile hunter. The incredible life and adventures of Steve and Terri Irwin. Full colour $5. My backup plan for hunting for food.

Did not buy adventures of an economic hitman $5 as no colour and pure text. The book mention saudi arabia before it modernise in 1973 goats are used as garbage collection solution, and no one dares to steal as the penalty is cut off the hand that stole and beheadings are common.

If the tricycle cannot fit into home entrance or my home is full of goods I got no choice but to leave the tricycles outside my home and same 9 locks on every tricycle apply. I need to measure the stairs dimension too and my home door dimension.

>>>Desperate times need desperate measures :)
>>>What you need is friends to help you out...2 to 3 persons for the moving parts and guard the dismantled parts.
>>>Hey, you need to wear nice clothes to do the dismantling...you may look suspicious and get caught in the act dismantling your own tricycle...haha

>>>If I am you and desperate to bring the tricycle up....I will carry up the stairs...but can it fit in your house's entrance?

The 3 tricycles can barely fit into elevator after dismental, not so easy to move it to my home.

So i have no choice but to leave it downstairs. Maybe I try again next week to dismental and try to fit into elevator again.

Discovered 2 äbandoned extra large tricycle that definitely cannot fit into the elevator last weekend, near block 124 near lavendor mrt station on way to tan tock seng hospital.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

Alberta Clipper,

No, I for one have not yet seen End Game, but I will. One problem I have is that I do not believe that Alex Jones is all he presents himself to be. I suppose that I am naturally suspicious of anyone who talks faster than most people can fully assimilate. I keep looking to the ground to see if any snake oil has spilled out to slip on. Just because I am on guard though, does not necessarily mean that there is anything to be concerned about, from comments here it would seem the film is perfectly good.

AC (and Dude), now that you have come through the door we would hope that you will not now take a step backwards but will instead take a step nearer the campfire. Mf is right, a lot of what we do is preaching to the choir. The regulars now know roughly how each of us will approach any given subject. The more perspectives we have the further our collective light will shine into the darkness and therefore there is less for us to be afraid from. Do not worry that at first you may only have a small voice. That is not what is important. With your presence the rest of us can feel collectively stronger. Take the talking stick and say whatever is in your heart on that moment. Freeacre just told us all how to make dog food and most of us don’t have a dog so don’t feel sensitive if your thought line doesn’t match any particular ongoing discussion. Just look to what mf does and we all love him to bits.

Stoney,

About 18 months ago the new word ‘motes’ came over my horizon. They are micro chips connected to an integrated photovoltaic cell. They are simple devices that can transmit an identification number to each other and to a nearby receiver and they can also count electrical impulses. Is this not wonderful, we can now replace land mines. They can be distributed by airplane over a section of remote road and begin to talk to each other. “I am here are you still there?” When an enemy convoy goes over the road their connection becomes broken and this info is sent back to some nearby base. If the convoy is not one of ours then we can lob an Exocet in and some kid is not going to loose his legs in 20 years time. Civilian uses spin off the military. Gas, electricity and water meters can all be read by someone just driving down the middle of the street without ever calling at the house by telling the mote to identify the meter and give the latest reading. Now we are finding the small print on the back of the bill of goods.

Have you ever read the book “A for Andromeda” by Fred Hoyle? Back in the 50’s he predicted self generating computer robots with frightening accuracy.

Palooka,

As Murph says, we cannot use something up and still have it, unless we behave like a thief and use somebody else’s thing up. Maybe not such a bad idea, but there are those that are guarding the gate and others who try to sneak around the end of the fence may experience technology at a distance.
If you follow my earlier flight of fancy, it was us who invented the greater entities when we felt the need for protection. Now it would seem that all we have to do is reverse the process for all to be ok. Please tell me if I have missed the point but what is it that we have to stop denying in order to turn this ball of mud into a Garden of Eden and we will do it.

Rockpicker

It doesn’t take advanced technology to give us a good life. Do you remember what Huey Long said about sharing the wealth? However he went the same way as the guy in the car park.

Freeacre

Re bending spoons, have you checked out Woods Metal yet?.

Mf

Mother Earth always achieves balance in the end but moves more slowly than us.

Oldensoul,

Your input always makes a lot of sense but make sure the Codex Alimentarius does not put an end to bio-mimicry. Have you signed the petition yet?

freeacre said...

lolo...I looked up Woods Metal, Belgium, and it appears that it melts or softens at 158 degrees F. It certainly wasn't that hot in the room, and the Bean's hand temperature couldn't have reached that either, I don't think. Also, others had the same rods and theirs didn't bend. What I saw around me that night was pretty mind-blowing. Even the forks and spoons that I had in my hand got so limp that I could just spin them around and they would wind themselves all around tightly forming a ball. They became as limp as a cooked noodle. After the Bean bent the rod, I took him out of there because the leader was from a CIA project and I didn't want him to risk being taken in some black ops exercise to find those who are adept at such things. He could also, at that time, put his hand over a compass and make it spin. Seems to have lost that ability now. I have never repeated the experiment on my own because I just can't make myself hold a spoon and yell "BEND!" at it for about 15 minutes without feeling like a terminal dork. Easier to do it when surrounded by a bunch of others just as nuts as you are.
Speaking about surrounding myself with a bunch others as nuts as I am...it seems to be an on-going endeavor. And magical process is still afoot.
It makes me happy to know that others are checking in to this site that we have yet to meet. Murph and I will check the stats and report back how many countries are involved. We don't look at the stats much, but maybe we should, just for general interest.
lolo...no dog, huh? Maybe you'd like my recipes for dried fruits and veggies and nuts for wild birds and squirrels?

Anonymous said...

batten down the hatches mates. HIGH WINDS HEADED IN FROM THE HORIZON. thats the canary in the coal mine coming from the current web bot report. let me put it this way... the reports are usually 16 to 18 pages long. this one, the first of the 1008 run, was only 9. still, it took me well over 2 hours to read and move through it. and that was the stuff on the first 7 pages. the rest was comprised of what i consider to be very good news. followed by the conclusion. the good news is in the form of a feminine personality rising to high prominance, influence, and social leadership. the kinda stuff we need right now. for any hillary pimps who might be reading this, ferget it! it sure-as-hell ain't hillary. this one's coming out of south or central america. the embodiment of an ancient archetype. that last sentence being mostly my own interpretation of the pie monks' interpretation (go break a rule or 10 and do some reading up on forbidden archeologies and anthropologies... the kinda stuff some call evidence).

i can say all that without violating copyright or compromising my ethics because george did. last night on c2c's annual predictions show. george ure, the http://urbansurvival.com/week.htm guy, that is. not george noory, the http://www.coasttocoastam.com/ host guy.

given the prolificacy of the last couple day's cache of comments here, are high winds already blowin? the question's rhetorical of course and not intended to be derogatory. new and old, including oldensoul, inspired by the word bug. not to mention, langosta, bug of all bugs with more wisdom. salted up in a style only mf can conjur up and always welcome by this one. observations blew in all the way from pakistan. the alberta clipper blew in... welcome darlin... the ears are always open here now that you've broken through the silence barrior. dude blew in and just had to bring up something i've always had to question... is it all just the whim of some mad scientist in the sky? the regulars apparently found their word muse poping out of their christmas stockings and infused the enegies of the collective consciousness of the campfire. some damn good chit too. as usual! i'm still trying to catch up.

so, high winds was the first word from george. and then, death of the dollar. and i do mean death!! so get ready y'all. and i can't leave out "secrets revealed"!! 2008 is the year of manifestation if you're open to such ideas. are you quite sure this is what you want? never mind, we're gonna get it anyway if the linguistics are any indication.

george didn't mention the "d" word that the "high winds" will trigger. so i can't. but maybe you'll get me drift. more than pun intended. cuz... this is gonna get nasty folks. if it turns out you're living in a less affected area, get ready for some unexpected company.

and george did apply mucho water to water-down the report. after reading that report, i don't blame him. i think he wanted to make the point without being thrown into the whaco bin by the listeners. i give it credibility. not so much because of past hits scored but, because of the mass of the data involved, the sophistication of the program, and the 10 years expecience and, imo, persoanl ethic and world view, that the pie monks bring to the table. 70 million reads of 500+ words each is a lotta data floating around and clumping up in a 3-D model.

domestic shock and awe and all! literally!! a little of the medicine-man's own medicine. compliments of momma nature. well, alot actually!! she's gonna look little like nourishing and mild momma. more like monster woman on steroids. water, along with the winds, is her game this winter and spring. in some areas, lots of it! so, a little reading up on the psychological dynamic of what happens to humans when cognitive dissonance gets triggered might be in order.

which reminds me, i haven't seen the jones vid. mostly cuz the bulldog's bite gets up me arse. and for reasons similar to rp's. bullshit's 'sposed to come from the bull's arse, not the bull's horn. damn, what's with this anal fixation of mine lately? anyway, i'm not saying the message is bullshit. i'm saying the package is. and the messenger. peddling his own agenda. i'd bet i already know what it sez and i've said as much me ownself about folks eating each other alive. mf said enuf to validate that.

which reminds me... rp... i'll get to your question. in the meantime, i agree with murph re depleted resources. and murph, you just might be seein that evidence yer lookin for..."secrets revealed".

but for now, back to death of the dollar. how's that saying go? bend over and kiss yer....?? that about sums it up. and george wasn't alone. on right before him was gerald celente, publisher of the trends journal and, hands down, the most mainstream of the nite's soothsayers. or should i say doomsayers?

celente is a frequent guest on lamestream teevee and is predicting civil disobedience over tax bills among other "knee jerk" reactions of john Q as he gets backed further and further into his ever shrinking corner. which feeds right into the revolution meme from the web bot boyz george has been writing about for months now. george said it. thats why i can say it too. and if you've been reading him, as i know some of you are, you already know that. according to celente, john Q is going to draw the line on property taxes. but other forms as well. they just aren't going to have the cash and, what with falling home prices, it seems a just response. then it gets worse... think about it, he said, rupert murdock's wall street journal reports 22% of the total US income went to 1% of the 300 mil POPofUSA, 150 million of which earned 12.8%. 150 mil? thats half the population earning less than 13% of the total income earned!! that was in 2005, the year of the latest data. we're 2 full years beyond that. and we all know the treand hasn't shifted. if anything, its ramped up. he mentioned the name of some fairly new player. a company... can't remember who... that claims 6 billion in real estate asset. asset?? they got there with 30 mil down. he sez the sub-prime scheme pales compared to the wheel of the deal of the big boy, wiz-bang merchants of the paper asset in hi-fi land. that wheel is about to blow out and the year of reconning is NOW!! liquidity shortage and debt overload. how may times can you re-package a deal or roll over a debt cuz you can't pay the piper? and how much has the fed injected onto the auction block as life support for the dieing monster in recent months? over half a tril ain't it?

you can read some of what celente had to say last nite in an interview he did with linda moulton howe over on http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1364&category=Environment

if you have stream capability you can hear goerge again tonite over on http://www.stevequayle.com/. i think its free if you catch it live. but if you ain't familar with quayle, brace yerself. cuz he's one of those christian fundie guys and uses his show to peddle his wares and most of us here need a barf bag handy for such chit.

freeacre said...

Palooka,
This is probably a dumbass question, but this "death of the dollar" thing... would that mean that it would be better to buy stuff if possible now like, say, seeds for next year's garden rather than wait until March or April? Would the prices in catalog's be defunct by then? Hyper-inflation would mandate changing the price of a seed packet from, say, $2 to $20 or something, right? Same would go for pretty much all commodities, food, batteries, tools, and especially imported items as the price of oil for shipping enters the stratosphere.
Of course, the shopping zombies who have already maxed out their credit cards on iPods, computer games, designer clothing, flat-screen TV's,and new Toyota's, are gonna be stuck between a rock and a hard place with no ability to stock up on life sustaining food or means of production. I gotta feeling that those gated communities are going to start looking like feed lots to a lot of folks as slogans like EAT THE RICH start turning up on T-shirts.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

Freeacre,

Please don’t start me off on dogs. We love animals to bits and over the years we have had many assorted types including a number of dogs. Every time we have one the gods get angry and find reasons why we shouldn’t have it. On the surface we think we have a pretty stable uneventful, read boring, life but looking back it has been pretty banal.

One place we had in England was a ground floor flat with common open gardens backing onto open woodland. I used to sit on the step and throw peanuts to the grey squirrels. I really didn’t want them leaping all over the flat but I wanted to see where the balance between fright and flight physically was. I found that I could eventually entice them onto the threshold but not over it. Even though it is ‘half open’ where we are now there are no squirrels but something other than peanuts in the bird feeder would be interesting.

Just out of interest, we later had a house in the same town as the flat above and quite often in the morning when I woke up there would be a peacock sitting on my dividing fence. Apparently they mate for life and this one escaped from captivity but its mate was still incarcerated so it stayed around the vicinity but not near enough to be caught.

...p said...

fa... short answer... yes.

b... no short answer. sorry, that ref in my last comment to answering rp's question was actually your question wasn't it? the plethora of posts has me prostrate! no... not the noun. the adjective!!

as for resource depleation, arguing that energy is transformed or transferred down the line should not be taken to imply that, therefore, we don't have a prob with resource depletion or that depleation is non-issue. i just wanted to make a point that energy IS and that, particularly in that context, most peddling this bid'ness of eroei haven't a clue how to set up a valid equation to determine it.

i absolutely agree with your fancy... "it was us who invented the greater entities". in fact, this has been me point all along.

and we did that "when we felt the need for protection". thats a valid observation and the dynamic is in play. i'd add rage into the mix as well. a big huge aspect of it is about holding the line and making laws and giving power to make sure the line is held.

fear is a form of terror. we now have a war on terror. and now we've seen enough to know its actually on our own terror. or we should be seeing this by now. and the perps of that war who are the ones we've charged with holding the line for us don't understand the prob we have with the way they're going about it cuz they believe they are only doing what we empowered them to do all along. "they" is not "all" perveyors of this war cuz there's alot going on here. but "they" definitly includes bush. and don't think this isn't being used by serious perveyors of war. listen to bush's "reasoning" for his actions.... i'm a loving man, but i have a job to do and that's to protect the american people. i'm not defending bush and his actions here at all. he has a seriously damaged psychie and is operating mostly on imprints and images of a god similar to those held by the born-againers. though that is in play, it doesn't cover the half of it. he's a puppet for his daddy and his daddy's cronies and he's in a position of power high enough to enact and empower others to act out his own denied rage and hatreds. but a big part of the reason why support for this war has dwindled is not that the majority of people now opposed to it suddenly found morals, or humanitarian compasion and empathy, or ethics, or loving reasons. its because we're loosing. mccain's support for the surge and its so-claimed success at this along with him distancing himself from the bush administration has increased his standings with the voters. not enough to make a dif for him in the run but it is showing up in the polls.

iraq is a big huge reflection of "hold the line". both the american people and the iraqi people demand the chaos be controlled and some measure of "stability" be established in the streets. just as we demanded the chaos in the streets of 'nawlins be controled. and when bush was a no-show, the people got pissed. sure, there are genuine humanitarian concerns mixed in there as well. but, underneath the rage and terror over bush's seeming disregard was the message... this fucker's not going to protect me if the threat comes my way. as a result, they began to see that bush is answering to handlers who don't give a flyin fuck about joe six.

as for the question, thankyou for finally asking. you haven't missed the point. it hasn't been made. and i realize the above and previous observations fall far short of answering. in fact, don't even address the question. its not easily answered. i'll see if i can come up with a short answer but will take some mulling. i hadn't considered how to form an answer if someone finally asked the question!! but i can guarantee, it can't be examined without going into the metaphysical realms and thats an area of great controversy for a lotta reasons. some obvious, some not so. and i really don't want to get into a debate about hard evidence such as physical or mathematical cuz it can't be provided. we'll be way otta the box on this one!! it'll be a case of, okay, this is my view... seek your own truth.

rockpicker said...

Anybody got any anecdotals on chemtrails?

I haven't heard much about Morgellon's disease lately, so I did some poking around.

http://www.dldewey.com/morgel.htm

Ran into a scary article from a couple years back saying there's a tiny worm living in most things cotton. It's visible with a 10-20 power hand lens. The author found examples on Q-tips. Anybody seen this?

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

P,

Thanks for that response, it cleared a few things up although I have to tell you that “they believe they are only doing what we empowered them to do all along” is non- sequitur with “they began to see that bush is answering to handlers who don't give a flyin fuck about joe six”. Recently, one of the Generals, can’t remember which one now, actually came out and said “There are no failed policies in Iraq, what you are now seeing is the plan”. With that in mind I would agree more with the latter part of your comment rather than the beginning.

As to the question, well we are here to help:-) lolo. If you find the time why not put a post together, I now the Murphs’ won’t mind. No rush – no sweat.

rockpicker said...

P,

I guess you know how I feel about paying taxes.

If the federal government really thinks it's a swell idea to collect money from its citizens and give it to the Central Bankers, let it roll its presses 'til Hell freezes over.

All the illegitimate "taxes" I could possibly be accused of owing in a lifetime can be printed in a matter of seconds.

I say, "run the presses," and flood the greedy bastards who are the Fed with a deluge of devaluing currency. Let 'em drown in it!

rockpicker said...

P, again...,

BTW, the notion Bush has any agenda other than pure, unmitigated evil can be dispelled with recent revelations that full electronic eavesdropping of an unsuspecting American public was initiated in January of 2001, well before the 9/11 false-flag attacks.

Remember, according to George, the Constitution, (and, presumably, the Magna Carta, as well,) "is just a goddamned piece of paper."

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

Freeacre, as a result of Rp’s latest I looked up this ref:

http://www.answers.com/Morgellons%20Disease?nafid=3

and found it mentioned fibromyalgia in the Symptoms and Diagnosis section. I seem to remember that you mentioned this disease some time ago.

Anonymous said...

b... those are 2 different theys. the latter being the masses that amount to joe-6 and the former being the handlers, the TPB elite and the like of, the build-a-burgers. if i read you right.

and if i read you right when you said... If you follow my earlier flight of fancy, it was us who invented the greater entities when we felt the need for protection.... i'll hold the line on my view that we invented this out of our need to have the line held and jr is absolutely convinced thats his job.

rp... in no way am i suggesting that as a pure agenda. the man's clinicaly insane!!! i'm only saying thats how the fuck sees it and justifies it from his view. he is doing exactly as he is told except when they don't have to tell him. which probably ain't often. all they have to do is leave him to his own mad devices and let the chips fall where they may. but when they have to intervene, they got so much shit on this guy the notion of a get out of jail free card is no more possible than the notion of him changing his view on his job or history ever justifying any of his actions. well, i'll take that back about history. look what history's done so far.

dow down 200+. gold over 850. oil hits 100 intraday. roll dem presses boyz!!! in the words of kris kristofferson... freedom's just another word for nothin left to loose!

rockpicker said...

Holy Schamoly, Palooka;

http://urbansurvival.com/
c2csnotes20080102.pdf

That is a scary place. Now I know why all my old friends shudder when they see me coming. Sheesh.

On his website home page, I just read about this week's freaky weather. Tahoe and north might get 100 inches of snow this weekend? As of the national weather service. Meanwhile upstate NY could see temps in the fifties!

Then there's the one about the military wanting cities to build sophisticated wi-fi systems so that they can deploy robots to find internet users who evade GPS detection and also use the robots to disseminate instructions to the brain-chipped masses. Oy, vey!

"Don't turn on the light 'cause I don't wanna see.
Momma tole me not to come..."

Anonymous said...

That is a scary place. Now I know why all my old friends shudder when they see me coming. Sheesh.

and now you know why it took me over 2 hours to read and move through 7 pages!

...p said...

b... i see where you might come to that. in the context, perhaps it was a poor comparison. on the other hand, its evidence of his madness. or perhaps mine. when he ignored nawlins it doesn't follow with believing its his charge to hold the line. thats assuming he's a rational man. he's not. he uses the belief to justify his actions when it serves his purpose. when it gets in the way, as it would appear it should have in 'nawlins, he can still rationalize otherwise in his twisted mind. the irrational mind can rationalize anything. thats why its irrational. the end justifies the means. nawlins was used as a power play to promote ulterior motives and gain more control. the more control he has the better position he's in to hold that line. according to his interpretation of course.

freeacre said...

Rockpicker, et al,
A great site for comprehensive studies, articles, videos, testimonials, etc. of both chem trails and Morgellons's Disease is in the far left column quite a ways down on the rense.com site. Very creepy pictures of possible nano structures taken with electron microscope of Morgellon's fibers that seem to be "alive".
I have been battling fibromyalgia for about 5 years, but thank God it's not Morgellons.Having just looked up possible links between the two, thanks to you, Belgium, I just decided to try yet another approach having to do with natural thyroid medication and coconut oil.
Chilling take on things from Kevin over on cryptogon. He takes a different stand on Peak Oil. Says the corporates have it all figured out how to keep the oil coming, keep milking the population of it's last farthing, and deal with the other shortages by killing off the excess people. oh joy. He says we can't rely on peak oil to bring these monsters to their knees. They will not let that happen. Got to find a different way.
We need a new post. I will attempt to come up with something tomorrow.