Tuesday, February 17, 2009


Folks, Starting a new thread here. Belgium has answered my call for a guest posting.


This is a response to Murph’s request for guest posts.
I had many ideas in my head and it seemed I could not tease a single thread from the tangle or at least it would have taken more space than would have been possible for a single posting. My original intention was to explore the relationship, if any at all exists, between Ethnicity, Nationhood and the State. The ethnicity part took over and
what emerged was a comparison of the different ways that primitive peoples and more civilised peoples regard the land on which they live. Perhaps, the bigger work will be for another time.


Peoples that do not own the land have a closer relationship with it and a more cohesive relationship with each other. Conversely, people who do own the land have little regard for it and tend to become more isolationist and comparatively less happy.

I regard these two statements to be true although I have no way of proving them in an absolute way. All I am able to do is give examples to demonstrate my point and hope that I will not be accused of cherry picking.

Primitive peoples have a stronger spiritual relationship with the land than more ‘developed’ peoples. This spiritualism has less to do with superstition about a greater being which holds the answers to eternal questions and more to do with reverence and respect for that which exists around them and on which their continued life depends. The major difference is that more primitive peoples regard themselves as part of nature, coexisting with other animals; forests; rivers and even the rocks of mountains; whereas modern society believes nature is there to be mastered for gain. Ancient peoples believe Mother Earth is the origin of their identity both connecting them with their ancestors and holding her in trust for the benefit of future generations. Thus they have a sense of oneness of belonging to a place and not of a place belonging to them. It has been suggested that since original peoples do not set physical limits on the land which supports them, they have scant regard for the land. In fact the exact opposite is true. For example, the Penan people of Brunei have a great regard for the forest where they live. They have a concept of conservation and stewardship over their habitat which they call “Molong”. Molong, for instance, dictates that the forest is harvested in such a way as to ensure a continued supply of their staple diet of rattan and sago. This seems pretty obvious when it is written down but is a concept that does not enter the heads of many western people. The Penan also hunt wild boar and make sure that there is enough of the boar’s natural diet of acorns and seeds from the diptercorp trees available in the forest to conserve sustainable numbers. The boar also eats plants which grow on the river banks so the Penan take great care to maintain these banks and not pollute the rivers. Their greatest fears come in the form of indiscriminate loggers who are gradually approaching their lands.

The Karen people of Thailand grow hill and swamp rice. The hills are terraced to prevent soil loss and swamp areas are left seven years between successive plantings so that the ground may fully recover. If students today ever hear of the three field system it is a quaint anachronism from a history lesson which could never be used today to support the developed nations’ portion of the worlds present 6.5 billion population. Instead, we transfer minerals from one part of the earth to put life back into an exhausted different part of the earth but time will come when there are insufficient minerals left to distribute. The short-sightedness of this approach is as obvious as are the pitfalls of returning to the old proven ways.

Even at a time when the World is facing an ecological crisis, very few western leaders would admit they could learn anything from peoples whose economies they regard as primitive and whose technologies they deride as stone-age. Such leaders assume they can only learn from salaried employers with university degrees. Yet many of these same scientists are coming to believe that homeopathic medicine practiced by primitive peoples may hold the key to finding cures for many of the western world’s major killer diseases. Although the popularity of such an approach of treating the whole body including the mind with natural products is increasing, it is unlikely to cure the unhealthy relationship that exists between the allopathic drug companies and the FDA. Worldwide, over 3000 plants are used for contraceptive purposes alone amongst undeveloped peoples.

The Karjat peoples of western India have a plant extract which is said to be an effective contraceptive when taken only twice a year. Many primitive cultures regulate their populations to the available food supply and although the theories of Thomas Malthus certainly appear to hold good for more developed cultures they are certainly not true for primitive societies.

It should not be assumed that primitive peoples spend a few hours a day hunting or harvesting their habitat and the rest of the time is spent on music making; dancing and general indolence. Aggression between neighboring tribes sometimes occurs. For perceived major offenses like the stealing of another’s animal then war may break out. This is not the ethnic cleansing exercise we recognise in the west but more a release of tensions in not too violent combat. In a way it is more like
Saturday afternoon football. For example, in Papua New Guinea rival tribes square up to each other across a field but most of the release of aggression is verbal insult throwing. Sometimes flightless spears are also thrown but these are not very well made and their trajectory is often haphazard. Fatalities do sometimes occur, mainly from young braves who are trying to prove themselves to their group but such happenings are very rare. To the Tsembaga and Mae Enga peoples, hostilities are a precursor for peacemaking; inter-group marriage and festivities which bind the groups closer together for a while. At least until someone decides to steal another pig and the process starts all over again. Generally speaking though, peoples who have no desire for ownership of the land have no desire for war, at least in the sense we understand it.

Modern warfare is sometimes about physically wanting to own more land, maybe to put a buffer zone between you and someone else, like Chinas annexation of Tibet. This was easy pickings since the Buddhist monks were no match for military aggression. Mainly though it is about one group wanting to own what is either on top of or underneath the land belonging to another group. Sometimes this is done through proxies, for instance like the CIA funding the Contras of Nicaragua to bring down the democratically elected Sandinista Government for the ultimate benefit of the American Fruit Company. Sometimes it is out and out aggression in its own right like the oil war in Iraq. Either way it is a fight to own the land and deplete its resources until they are used up by the West and the profits go to international financiers. A modern twist to this is the use of economic instead of military warfare.
The World Bank and the IMF throw money at the heads of some third world leaders whose land resources they want to exploit and then wait until repayments are reneged upon. The debt is then restructured in such a way that the country has to forfeit its resources to those who hold the debt. Some world leaders are smart enough to see through this little scam, like former President Sukarno of Indonesia who stuck a finger up at the World Bank’s hand of friendship and so he had to go. That is when the CIA was called in to destabilise the country and install Americas’ choice of President Suharto. Then the benefits derived from Indonesia started to flow to the West instead of the Indonesian people. One thing for sure is that people don’t fight over nothing to have. Whilst the self sustaining indigenous peoples of South Africa; together with those from North and South Rhodesia were made into slaves in their own country in order to work the diamond mines, no one ever started a war, economic or military, with Botswana. There is sand on top of it and sand underneath it and the bush people can bask in relative safety.

The largest ethnic group today without a homeland is the Kurds. They occupy most of Eastern Turkey; a bit of Northern Iraq; a small bit of North West Iran and a scattering throughout Western Europe. They are a largely cohesive group often attacking Turkey from out of Northern Iraq for an independent homeland. It is my contention though, that if they were ever to achieve this goal they would loose this cohesion since it would be no longer necessary to band together in a common struggle and they would become like the inhabitants of any other nation. In this way, it is probably better to travel hopefully than to arrive.

Here is a cute little trick that was worked on the people of the west, particularly America, which is probably an easier example to pick. After the Indigenous Americans were beaten into the back room, who did the newly acquired lands belong to? Well the American Settlers. Who represented these ‘new’ Americans? Could it be the American state? So when you want to have a plot of land to build a house on, then who do you buy it from? The American state in one of its various forms, that represents who? Well we got there; you are actually spending 20 – 30 years of your working life buying something that should be yours anyway. How did this situation come about? I don’t know but it sure seems that when somebody was asked to ‘find the lady’ they turned over the wrong card.

Since I have got into questions and answers here is a final one, it should be easy for most of you. Find a four letter word to finish this late 2001 quote from President G W Bush “The events of 9/11 should not stop the American people from going out to _ _
_ _ “? If I did not know the answer, I would have plumped for Work but that is dead wrong, the answer is Shop. The answer to “Why shop” is that your government needs you as dutiful consumers. They want you to own more stuff so that just like third world countries you will get into debt and they will have control over you. As the benefit of your working hours trickles upwards you will be left with relatively less.
As the credit card companies remind us, “Plastic takes the waiting out of wanting” and boy do we want our stuff but this is mostly trading a short term gain for a long term loss since we will be still paying for the stuff even after its novelty has long worn off. As debt mounts, we will become less happy, at least until the next shiny thing that you can put on your plastic, catches your eye. For companies it is just the same, their next deal eventually becomes your next stuff; Weyerhaeuser’s next clear cut becomes your next garden shed. Both are driven onward in an endless spiral of deals for them and stuff for you. All the time you gradually become poorer and less happy.

Here are a couple of verses from a song that some of you may have seen before. It is a keenly observed indictment on modern society.

People struggle, people fight
For the simple pleasures in their lives
But trouble comes from everywhere
It's a little more than you can bear

People shallow, self-absorbed
See the push and shove for their rewards
I, me, my is on their minds
You can read about it in their eyes

Whatever happened to caring about each other? Where did it all go wrong? Somewhere along the way, we seemed to have traded the wisdom of old for knowledge and we came away holding the short straw.

How can we possibly redress this imbalance? One answer is to reduce our dependence on stuff and as far as possible not be reliant on the big box stores. Grow what food you can and for the rest shop at farmers markets. Try to get involved in community projects to find a common thread with those around you. Try to live a simpler but happier life.


freeacre said...

I think, Belgium, that you have identified the fatal flaw in our culture - the concept of ownership of the land (planet). In aboriginal societies, the people see themselves as part of the land. They have an innate right to stand on the ground, drink from the streams, eat whatever shows up that Mother Earth provides.
But the way we live, we are entitled to basically nothing that we do not pay for. We even have to pay for our money, with interest, just for openers.
For us to switch to that orientation would be just about impossible unless we also developed tribes to work out the boundaries of how many could live in a certain place. Or else, there would be a constant battle over who lived where depending on brute force or amazing powers of persuasion.
A start, though, might be a deed to land that defined the holder of the deed as the steward (rather than owner) of a certain parcel of land. This is the one designated to maintaining the health and well-being of the land. If it was judged that the person had harmed the land, the person would be in violation of the contract and the land would allotted to someone else who pledged to do a better job.
Criterion such as the quality of the water, the viability of the soil, health of the animals and people who lived in the designated area, etc, would be judged and the stewards who do the best job would be rewarded by additional land to continue to do good work with. The judgements would be made by elders from the area who were the most familiar with it and who also had the most respect of the people involved.
That way, lots of different landscapes and lifestyles could thrive, depending on the conditions that the land itself mandated.
Of course, this is all a pipe dream because it could never be accomplished in a world dominated by capitalism, corporatism, or any sort of banking as we know it. They are just two totally opposing world views that cannot co-exist.
It would require a radical re-definition of concepts like "wealth" and "abundance," "poverty," "liberty," and "responsibility."
I noticed a small shift in my own perceptions last night as I watched a documentary showing women standing in a stream washing clothes. For a moment, at least, I just saw some women standing in a stream washing clothes. Then, I noticed myself switching it to seeing "poverty stricken" women standing in a stream washing clothes. The first perception felt better.
I think that kind of shift is going to be necessary if we are to negotiate the great collapse without going nuts. Like it will be normal to see someone walking around in jeans and a sweatshirt (rather than a suit,) so people without currency won't be perceived as looking like the Unibomber.
Thank you, Spirit Across The Sea, for penning this thoughtful post.

murph said...


To complement from another perspective, a new post by survival acres;
links to an interesting lecture by Danial Quinn:

I'm not so sure I agree with survival acres about his conclusions on the Quinn lecture, but both the post and the lecture are concerned with food wars and food production. Worth the read.

Anonymous said...

Great post. It made me think of a wonderful essay on the subject of land monopoly by Mark Twain:



murph said...


That is a great link. Looked at the sub links too. I haven't read a great deal of Mark Twain, just some. What a metaphor.

freeacre said...

This doesn't have anything to do with Belgium's post, but it's a tip that might come in handy for those getting ready for the money supply going seriously south...
Have you noticed how expensive spices are now? Little containers of tarragon or poppy seeds or curry, or whatever are like $6 apiece! When you read the fine print on the price tags, it often works out to something on the order of $70 per pound!!
Well, we just went to this Shop4Less in Bend (big discount grocery store) that had LOTS of bulk foods in bins, and picked up spices by the POUND for 1/10th the price at the supermarkets! So, get it while you can...

RAS said...

Our attitudes towards the land is the root cause of our current predicament. When nature is something to be conquered, it is not something to be protected or cared for. I think a lot of this disorder is religious, and is due directly to the influence of Christianity, Judiaism, and to a lesser extent Islam. They're the ones who've always preached dominion over the land. Religion forms a basic part of a person's worldview.
A lot of people think Chrisitanity is going to be around forever -even nonbelievers. But I honestly think we're coming to the end of its reign and that in a century, two at most, there won't be many at all left who profess it. At least not in it's current form.
It may sound OT, but I don't think it really is.

And I love Mark Twain, btw.

Anonymous said...

Yes, that essay is timeless. The essay led me to read about the popular ideas of Henry George and his single land tax, whose ideas had a wide influence on many nations at th time. It sure seems that we have been here before, and that there was a real awareness of such things in the 19th century. Somehow ths awareness was lost in the shuffle of time. Hmmm... I wonder why?


Anonymous said...

A century or two, Ras? Rats! I was hoping Christianity (and the rest of 'em) would be over a lot sooner than that. Like say, next week? Wishful thinking, I guess.


Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

Thanks for the kind words, and a special thanks to anazuzo for the heads up on the Mark Twain piece, that was brilliant. So where do you think the answer lies? Should such people be seriously discouraged from such actions? I don’t mean indiscriminately popping off heads of state although that could turn it into a desirable job that nobody wanted. I was thinking more of the Prince of Mark Twain’s piece. Do you think people like being led even if they don’t like the leader? Would they know how to set a rudderless ship in the direction of freedom?

Anyway, I am here to tell you that I got a “Could do better” on the quiz. Some of those questions were not easy. The only slight criticism I have of the site is that it would have been nice if the old surveys had been archived.

Freeacre, I buy my herbs and spices either from market stalls or in bigger quantities from ethnic shops. Those fancy two gram Swartz bottles look cute all lined up on a kitchen shelf but they are practically useless. It is surprising what you take for granted in one country that is not available in another. There is only one shop in Antwerp that I know of, where you can buy barley. If I run out I throw a small handful of rice into the soup, it is almost the same but not quite.

RAS said...

Things that well-rooted don't dissipate overnight, Dude. And who knows what will take their place? The religious impulse is too firmly rooted to be extinguished in most (as evidenced by the large number of Darwinists who've turned evolution into a religion). Hopefully it will be something non-hierarchial and earth-based.

I posted the second installment of the serial story this morning. I'm getting into writing it. Doing so is much better than worryinng, grr.

Anonymous said...

this doesn't have anything to do with b's post either. but it does have to do with how the money supply went south. or, to be more precise, into the pockets of the criminals on wall strt.... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29163182/

note times for re-runs listed in the link. its 2 hours explaining the whole rotten scheme. how the house of cards collapsed.

about an hour and a half in a guy named bass shows up. he made mucho buckos on the unwinding. based on the simple idea that, if wages are advancing at 1.5% and housing is advancing at 5% and the whole idea behind the "creative financing" is based on the premise that housing values will continue at that same 5% forever, then its just a matter of time for the whole thing to come un-glued. and the more he looked for hard evidence that that was the mind-set the more convinced he became. he found that the guru hot shots at the big investment banks were in middle school last time the country went through a bonafide recession. some of them were still in diapers!! and that was exactly the mind set. then he found how the rating agencies were brought on board to legitimatize the investment paper. they could play by the law rather than the spirit of the law and make anything meet AAA requirement.

bass even made a power point presentation to the wiz kids at bear sterns to que them on their risk potentials. they said, "you worry about your risk exposure and we'll worry about ours." then the head guy puts his arm around bass as they're walking to the door and sez... "that was a very compelling presentation and for our sake, you better be wrong!"

greenspam is interviewed throughout. at one point he sez - about the fed's/his encouragement toward even more creative mortgages - if we hadn't done this then there would have been economic collapse. as if there was no other choice. which is exactly what is happening now. when he commented about CDO's (collateralized debt obligations) - those are the "instruments" created to peddle the paper off to unsuspecting investors all over the world - he said, "i've read them and i can't make any sense out of them either. and i had a team of over 300 PHD's to advise me and they couldn't figure them out either."

well duh!!!

this doc is well worth the time. it sure as hell shows how far reaching the systemic rot goes. some of us have given up on our loved ones who haven't gotten the clue yet and have given them to god or the devil or whatever. but if your still wanting to save them or not convinced yourself yet as to what's coming this is the best presentation coming out of MSM i've seen yet.... p

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,


I haven’t watched it yet but I will. In the meantime here is a five minute clip which I guess is in the same vein explaining how these guys are lining their pockets with our money.


Anonymous said...

Here is another job idea. My sis told me about a website called guru.com, it is a project-based employment site that acts as a middleman between freelancers and employers. The site has a similar business model to ebay in that you bid on jobs, and build up a rating as you complete projects. There are some open access (free) projects, but the majority of projects are reserved for members. Their basic fee is $25 a year and 1% of any earnings. This seems reasonable to me since they ensure payment through their escrow service, and they maintain tax records.

I registered and set up a free profile, and it did not prompt for credit check information. I have since received a few project offerings that looked pretty good (example: 30-35 bucks per tape hour for a transcription/editing project). There are many other project categories. My sis got some work a few years ago through this service, so it is not a scam.


Baz said...

Ugh--Gidday, sorry, couldn't resist, been keeping silent 4 fifty years! Only learned how 2 use a computer a couple of years ago. Took me a week to find the 'enter' key! Too embarrassed to ask anyone! Yeah male also.

Ugh--also native. Killing wild-pigs with my bare teeth is more 'natural' to me than grappling with modern technology. OK, so I exaggerate, a little--the point is still made (clear to me at least, but like I said, I'm native).

Sorry to sound like a racsist, but I have observed that white men have trouble with the sun, and the air, and so on--you know, things which are obvious to primitives which have lived in harmony with .......for 100,000 years.

For example, went pig-hunting yesterday in the pouring rain. Got absolutely saturated, walked for freakin miles, up hill, down dale. And no pig. Said to Jace, " least we're gettin' in some good exercise."

So, the point I'm making is obesity-pandemic could easily be cured by chasing the food, especially in areas where the animals in the forest have been minimised through eviloution.

On the religious front, also observed through personal experience churches don't even mention lofty ideals such as dominion or whatever, as provide brain-washing seminars on social cohesion and pratice paedophilia.

But then, the son warned us, 'by their fruits you shall know them.'
Where I live the pigs eat nuts (Macadamia, walnuts), gives them a nice nutty flavour.

Back to the son, he also said something or did something with evil spirits and a herd of swine, (or was that wine) which may have infected the herd down to the present day, which we then go and buy in the shops. And digest, just a thought. All metaphor of course (translate for the modern idiom).

Anonymous said...

A very good post Belgium....I liked it a lot... in a bit of a run but in the mean time here is something interesting....


could say more but I suggest you watch the video and let it sink in... then make sure that the second amendment is not done away with....


murph said...


Thanks for taking the time to figure out how to use the computer. Your input is welcome, pull up a stump around the fire. The talking stick will be passed.

I think this whole obesity thing has more to it than just more exercise. Our modern diet contains a whole bunch of stuff that messes up the metabolism big time. Our medico practices push drugs aplenty into our systems which play hell with the metabolism. Combine that with sedentary life styles and yes, we have weight problems as a pandemic, not all of which can be cured by just exercise. I think it is a bit more complex than that.

For the above reasons, my wife and I don't frequent doctors offices except as a flat out emergency. We also provide most of our own home grown and home raised food. If we had more land and were 20 years younger I would provide 100%. When our rabbit production gets into full swing, we will be even closer to 100% self fed. We don't go to fast food joints and eat out very seldom, maybe 5-6 times per year.

I agree, white civilization is more into domination of nature than living in harmony with it. Sustainability is not part of our religion for sure. But some white folks are seeing this and making changes around the idea. It's gonna be a contest to see if enough folks get the idea before we are all killed off. I'm not real optimistic on that.

We talk about religion on this blog once in a while. Most steady readers feel our religions have failed rather miserably for improving mans behavior, especially in dealing with nature and our environment. My wife and I do not anticipate being lifted into heaven and will be waving goodbye to the believers when they go with good riddance filling our mouths.

Time for Montana to jump in on this one. lol.

Again, Thanks Bas for the comment. Look forward to more.

murph said...


We saw the video. So I immediately took our box apart. Our Zenith doesn't have camera or mic. Now they have me wondering about the new TV we got not a long time ago. Hmmm guess I'll have to take that one apart too and see what's in it.

If the video is valid, maybe only certain brands have it, or it is only in new ones, or maybe it is a scam.

We know the governments are spying on the populace. What is it, a million people on no fly list and aren't terrorists? They didn't make that list up with no information at all.

Got your 4 g's put up? Guns, garden, gold and groceries (stored food.

freeacre said...

I second that, Baz. You are more than welcome to speak your truth here as you see it. We all have a little different perspective on things and when we combine them, we are all better off.
Ely, the Murphinator and I practically DOVE into our converter box to see if it has microphone and TV spyware in it. Nope. But, I am wondering about the digital TV... lot of comments on that piece that would lead to the conclusion that it was a hoax. But, Murph is looking into it further. All I know is that practically wherever I go on the net, I am dogged by these commercials that want to sell me assorted weight reduction plans and products. The ratbastards.
And, just to get it off my chest, can you believe the latest on the Madoff and the Stanford scandals? Madoff never invested his clients money in a single stock in 13 YEARS! And the SEC never noticed!! Yeah, right. And, Stanford's been reported on time and time again, but never arrested, and laws have been changed to enable him to continue his drug laundering and assorted malfeasance. So, pretty much all of the big players on Wall Street as well as their federal regulators seem like one big corrupt cabal to me - and now the Congress is propping this whole putrid thing up with a package that puts us into debt servitude for the foreseeable future...and continues to pay the bonuses (er, "awards") from our money as well. No frigging way.

Anonymous said...

Murph, FA

There is plenty of evil going on inside the dark halls of Washington. Do I believe this to be a hoax, no I do not, there seems to be a real concerned effort to have everyone go to the digital feed so much so that in February the stations were to begin broadcast in digital only.

This of course was put on hold by the Obama admin, and I do say on hold as I still believe the plan is to force people to digital some time in the near future, but for digital and for what purpose is there to mandate that particular change?

OK call me a conspiracy theorist, I accept that. Still, in the natural coarse of things the change would come about in a gradual form. As people migrated to the digital quality there would be less and less using the old analog signal and at some point cost versus benefit would determine that the old system be shut down, but this would not be mandated. No there is something more here, much much more and has evil written all over it.

It is no secret the things that can be done to a cell phone to identify you, your location and even what you are talking about and to whom even when you think the thing is turned off. The spy agencies have been working with cell companies to have an ability to use the cell phone as an eavesdropping device for some time, even as a location beacon when necessary.

If this video is a hoax then at the 36 second mark you will see a slightly lightened window for the camera to peek through on the face plate of the Magnavox unit. In its precision this could only have been done at a factory someplace. The powers that be are planning something and they need as much information as possible and access to that information about the populace when ever they wish. What better way to see what you are up to, where you are, who you are associating than to come right into your living area and have a little look see....

Their plan is almost in place. You start to list the laws that have been passed, (no fly lists etc), suspension of habeous corpus, RFID, Patriot act and its subsequent changes, the push to have legal gun owners and users listed and or suspended as rightful owners and users and you can easily see that the evil bastards are planning for something big.

I am not sure what it is ... but I am watching and anytime I see another nail in freedoms coffin I have to point it out, even though many will not see it as I do...

I have more but I need to run...

Anonymous said...

OK back again...

There is a concensis that the video is portraying a hoax of a camera and that there are a variety of reasons that there may not be a camera inside this particular box... there are several who claim the same box and nothing inside, all of this is probably true.

But... being devil's advocate, maybe this was a box that was never supposed to make it to market. I recall back to days of pirating satellite, there were certain makes and models of receivers that were better for use to pirate than others, once the manufacturers found this they changed the model in mid production slightly to cause those of us pirates a bit more trouble. Could this be a box that got out there that was not supposed to?

I read the arguments against this and yes maybe some or all of it is true, but in defense of this being possible I can recall a time when there was no chance in hell a cell phone would have a camera as well, the camera technology was just too big to ever fit in a phone. Now cell cameras have capability in the uber mega pixel range even video capable and can fit on your wrist...

For me it is still possible that the technology is there that would negate all those who believe that this device could not be mounted where it is, could not transmit etc. etc, yet we have RF technology in passport documentation that can be picked up by those who are interested in obtaining that information illegally.

The advancements in spy tech in the last, even 5 years is incredible. Cameras are getting smaller, better and better resolution, transmitters are getting smaller, receiving tech getting more and more sensitive all with increasing amounts of quality. So what if this is a box in a series of boxes somehow got out there? There is still a real possibility of this actually taking place.

We are being watched most everywhere, and the next logical place to be watched by those with a need to know is inside our homes, again what better way to mask it than that box most are glued to a good portion of their awake time at home, the television.

Imagine you are suspected of being a terrorist, or a subversive and they want to know more about you, the unmarked van sits just down the block, dials into the box in your living room, they now know and gather details about you, your family, who you are associated. They gather this evidence, and when they have enough blast open your door and you are screwed....

NWO wants to know all they can about you and I, and have been working very diligently to enable ways to do just that. Cameras are everywhere, info is being stored about you, and most of the time you will never know it.

These are scary times, so much is happening, so very fast.

So what if it is a hoax, but then again what if it is not????


Anonymous said...

Obama is a secret Neocon


Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

To jump into the Christianity argument with a sharply observed comment from during the Regan years by Father Xabier Grostiaga who was a director of the Nicaraguan Economic institute. He was asked about the relationship between the Church of the Poor and the established RC Church represented by the Archbishop. He replied “The roll played by Christianity in the cultural framework of the Regan Administration is to legitimise (the) established powers of the world. The Church has always been with the big cartels; with big institutions; with big countries. Only in exceptions was the Church with the poor that developed with the third world. If the Church started legitimising the poor (and thus) the independence of small countries, the Church is legitimising established power, then the church is a subversive element. That is why they identify the Church of the Poor with communism.”

Therefore the roll of the Church is to stabilise the status quo and maintain the ever widening gulf between rich and poor. It must become ever more moribund as this gap widens. I wonder what Jesus would have thought about that one?

freeacre said...

Regarding the link that suggests that Obama is a neocon... that is disturbing. But, the problem is that the Ford Foundation, USAID, and other organizations like that function on at least two levels. On the one hand, they do good work with sincere people who are motivated to help people. I think that Obama's moma was one of the good ones(just a feeling). And, then on the other hand, they function as front organizations for some really bad guys. You can't tell who is what just by the fact that they worked for the larger organization. When we are on the outside looking in, it is pretty difficult to tell if what we are seeing is true or simply justifications for our fears.
The tragedy to me is that there is such a history of lies and manipulations that trust becomes impossible and after a series of betrayals, we probably wouldn't be able to recognize a truly good thing if we saw it. This systemic duplicity is destroying a vital component of what makes life worth living - or a culture worth maintaining. Very sad.
I think it is a by-product of a civilization getting too complex and becoming unsustainable. That is one reason why I keep coming back to localization and the viability of small groups - like our Campfire.
All these contributions are like pieces to a puzzle and I am grateful to all for adding to the collective knowledge. Forewarned is forearmed, as it were...or, "it takes a village." lol

Anonymous said...


Would love to know how to get a tour of this facility.....

Anonymous said...

"it takes a village."

hillary would be proud. the point is... and this is the big fat challenge... there is truth in damn near everything. that and the fact that what is truth for one is anathama to another. dubya is a good example.

and yes, you've hit de nail on de head again fa... "The tragedy to me is that there is such a history of lies and manipulations that trust becomes impossible and after a series of betrayals, we probably wouldn't be able to recognize a truly good thing if we saw it." this is exacerbated to the max by people cherry picking to support their pov's and agendas.

and speaking of dubya, (or more precisely his grandpa prescott), the skull and bones gang are getting their asses sued in federal court by the family of geronimo... http://www.readingeagle.com:

the suit names, among others, the society, the russell trust assoc (bid'ness arm of the society), obama, defense sec gates, and army sec pete geren as defendents.

"We're very serious. We're tired of waiting and we're coming after them," sez harlyn geronimo, great - grandson and spokesman for the family.

its about damn time!! ...p

Baz said...

Belgium, 'Beware the leaven of the Pharisees (Temple leaders). A little of it works itself all the way through and permeates the whole loaf'--fruit flies spoiling wine, 'weighing men down with burdens too heavy to bear while they themselves lift not a finger to help'

'Pharisees, blind guides, preventing those trying to enter the kingdom, while you yourselves do not enter, taking someone trying to enter the kingdom of heaven, and making him twice the sons of Hell as you are!' 'Snakes, sons of snakes (symbolic of evil) ....'

'OK, kill him, no not us, our laws forbade it, find someone who's laws don't so our consciences will be clean'--'We're a god-fearing nation and we'll kill anyone who says otherwise'-George Bush

The blood of the innocents cry out from the ground, still--geronimo.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,


Make yourself welcome and say it like you see it. If you are saying that a little poison goes a long way, I couldn’t agree more. There are those who are laughing at how easily we have all been seduced. With the Native Americans, it was beads and mirrors; with us it is i pods and flat screen TV’s (with or without spying equipment). But there those amongst us who don’t have anything to put there flat screen TV inside anymore and they have realised how cruel the joke is. The persons of the piece that Mark Twain was emulating never get their hands dirty, that’s what delegation is all about and I think the George Bush quote was an attempt at a weak joke but George being George he didn’t quite pull it off. Talking about pulling things off and combining it with Geronimo, do you know that in order to get into their exclusive little club, the snot noses that are purported to have Geronimo’s remains have to lie in a coffin in a semi darkened crypt and masturbate in front of all the others? Well isn’t that an exciting little initiation ceremony? If you combined the total membership of this snooty club they would not equal the man Geronimo was.

The word verification thingy is "grapp" which is Belgian for joke. Who will have the last laugh?

freeacre said...

You know, this is kinda off the wall, but it occurs to me that you two, ras and Dave, are both going through struggles keeping up with your places on your own. Both of you are wanting to or considering moving... maybe you could team up and help each other out. Nothing worse than trying to move and shit all by yourself.
Just a thought.

Baz said...

wankers! He who laughs loudest laughs last--the first shall be last. Once the second has past, we re-build, re-stock, replenish, resurrect.

RAS said...

Has anyone else noticed that this site has been down a lot in the past week? Several times I've gone an empty page with 'Trout Clan Campfire' at the top.

There's an easy way to find out if Geronimo's skull is in that club. Break down the doors and search the place. If it's there, arrest the bastards. Nice dream, huh?

Here's a scary situation in French Guadeloupe: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1150062/Britons-flee-French-island-Guadeloupe-rioters-turn-white-families.html

I have some good news. A friend of mine who is going through a nasty divorce and is getting the house is going to let me use the huge garden space out back to grow crops this year. All she wants in payment is some veggies and a bit on the extra water bill.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,


This is no new thing for France, particularly Sarkosy who has a habit of dousing the flames with gasoline.


Where did they get the idea from, or maybe they didn’t need an idea.


freeacre said...

What did you guys think about Pres. Obaba's speech tonight? I thought it was jaw-dropping. If he can pull this thing off, he'll be the best president who ever lived. And, if he can pay for it by trimming useless expenses, taxing the rich, drawing down the war, and closing the loopholes on big corporations - well, the term "miraculous" comes to mind. And, if he is that on top of all that, then he'll get Peak Oil and peak Everything, too.
Holy Cow! I can hardly wait to see how this is all going to play out. If he is serious about all this, he is gonna have to double his security team. The rich are going to come after him - all teeth and tongs from every side.
Good for you on the garden space, ras! Funny how the Universe provides...

Anonymous said...

My take on Obama’s speech was that he understands what needs to be done, and he has the best of intentions to push for important programs while he still has popular momentum. I am hoping that he has time to do his good works. I am hoping that he doesn’t really plan to pour trillions more into zombie banks, and that he has a plan B.

A few more thoughts on our relationship with the land…

I recently watched a very long documentary on economics entitled ‘commanding heights’ and found myself shouting at the TV at the end of the four hour investment, when the program was summarized with some bogus 2D rationalization for global corporatism. It was a public relations piece cleverly disguised as a documentary. One interesting point however was their explanation of why the installation of the free market economic template did not work well in many third world countries. The reason stated was that these countries did not have tight contract law, and therefore land-owners (typically subsistence farmers) could not show documentation proving they owned their land, they could not borrow money against the land to develop economically, and the banks could not gain interest in their land. Invariably the next logical step in such regions involves moving people off of their land (which they can’t prove they own) into cities and factory jobs, rendering the land fair game for plunder of raw materials, and for that matter, rendering people as raw materials as well. Personally, I would rather have individual property rights than to be subject to government or corporate pillaging. I like FA’s idea of deeds requiring good stewardship of land.

There is a new article by Michael Hudson entitled The Language of Looting, in which he describes the way our economic and political language has been hijacked through public relations. He discusses the history of land monopoly and feudal serfdom through the ages, and how the same age-old tools of usury were set in place to control our modern system.



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