Wednesday, February 25, 2009

HOW NATIONS ECONOMY’S WORK

from Murph

Sharon Astyk in her book “ Depletion and Abundance” introduced me to a different perspective on what she calls the informal economy, or the real economy, as opposed to the formal economy. Now before you gulp and the brain cells overheat on terms, this is not going to be an essay with a bunch of esoteric financial terms and theories. Frankly, I’m a bit burned out reading all the different perspectives and statistics and numbers being tossed around on the internet concerning the economy. Her book gave some interesting other ways of looking at this.

There is also a 1 hr 23 min lecture on how money works at; http://informationliberation.com/?id=26471
Worth the watch if you have interest in such things and is very well presented in very logical non technical way.

The formal or official economy is found in all of the rich countries, and involves tax forms, endless other documents, fees and statistics, the banks and other financial entities. In actuality, most of the world’s populations do not live in a formal economy. A great deal of our economy isn’t involved in that either. The informal economy is ‘under the table’, involves little if any forms, definitely no taxes or fees, and can be also referred to as a biological economy, or a survival economy. The formal economy got a real boost from the industrial revolution. Prior to then, most of what was called economy was the informal kind. In actuality, when you look at it from this perspective, the informal economy dwarfs the formal. It includes all volunteer work, all work within the family. How would you put a national value on all of the work a housewife does as an example? How much work is done ‘under the table’ with nothing in between the employer and employee? I know people that have been doing that for most of their work lives. The problem in western societies is that we have been taught that the formal economy is all there is, and what little of the informal economy we run into is considered negligible and unimportant, viewed with suspicion and often is illegal. Of course governments are not happy with that informal jazz, they aren’t getting their cut of the booty and it is difficult to control, it’s under the radar.

I agree with Astyk in that kind of economy is what we are going to have to develop. The concept that this will involve great hardship and not getting what you need for a good and happy life is not necessarily true. Relocalization of production and growing all or a great deal of your own food is part of this type of economy. While it probably does involve what is called a ‘lower standard of living’, it doesn’t mean you have to be impoverished in what you need to live a fruitful and satisfying life. It does mean doing without a whole lot of toys and non essential stuff. It does mean that families will have the time to interact with each other and spend time talking with the kids and spouse, something that appears to be lacking in most families.

Our Grange farmers market started last Saturday. There were vendors we had to turn away, not enough room for all of them. We had a vendor selling Cockatiels, other selling eggs, cookies, candies, hand made crafts while a guy played guitar and sang at one end of the room. A local massage therapist gave massages. We sold out our 10 dozen eggs in an hour. There was bartering going on between tables. We are thinking of having a local didgeridoo player come. Won’t that be a gas. The place was intensively busy from opening to closing time. All of the vendors made some money; everyone had a good time and new friends and acquaintances made. Just wait till the fruit and veggies start coming in. The trade and barter table got a lot of tradesmen and handymen signing on, we are going to be publishing a register of that. This is an example of an operating informal economy.

Now since the state doesn’t like this kind of shenanigans going on (the state figures it must control everything and get a percentage of the exchange going on), there is always the danger of someone not happy with it due to it cutting into their profits and reporting this activity to government agencies. Another good reason to involve as much of the community as possible. There is some safety in numbers, especially if most involved are quite determined to resist government control.

As a branch off of this subject, I am supposing some of you dear readers managed to sit through Obama’s speech to the combined congress critters on Tues night. About all he talked about was the economy and what he planned to do about it. Of course there was partisan cheering on his points. Interestingly, the Repugs have suddenly discovered financial responsibility and at least voiced criticism of the huge spending Obama proposes. Isn’t it interesting that they ignored 8 years of the largest expanding government spending and government expansion in our history but if a Democrat wants to continue it, they are against it.

Now I am going to admit that Obama gives a great speech, really clutches at the heart strings in many aspects. As Freeacre commented in the last post, it was intended to give hope and direction to the nation and appeals for support of his policies and plans. On the surface, the speech seems to really be concerned with the ‘common citizen’. He brazenly talked about taxing the rich (those with more than $250 grand a year income) and closing tax loopholes for the rich. And, we have a majority of people who are adamant about the concept that this problem is of such magnitude that massive government intervention and control is what it will take to drag us out of this economic mess.

Despite my dear spouse’s hopefulness and clear support of Obama, I remain skeptical. Speeches by a practiced orator are one thing, doing it is entirely something else. Let’s look at the situation;
1. Nothing that is publicly stated by Obama wants to significantly change the paradigm of how our money works. Yeh, taxing the wealthy will put more money under the control of the government. But then what? Has the government ever been truly reformist in concept?
2. Frankly, if Obama pushes too hard for restructuring how money works, I figure that the big money people (about 1% of our population) will try and assassinate him. I just don’t see these people passively allowing a reduction of their global power and wealth which is what redistribution of wealth entails..
3. When I look at history, redistribution of wealth is always precluded by a change or dissolution in governments and almost always is accompanied by active and violent rebellion.
4. All of Obama’s speeches contain the element of trying to recapture the momentum of economic growth through capitalistic economic system. For those of us that maintain that continual economic and material growth is simply unsustainable, this is just plain stupid to try and revitalize.

So, in relation to the original theme of this posting, it appears to me that somewhere down the road the concept and practice of an underground or informal economy and a vastly decreased ‘standard of living’ is a necessity. While I admit the possibility of Obama’s efforts might bring temporary relief to the crashing system that is going on right now, I maintain it is unsustainable. I also admit that Obama and his crew are completely unable to deal with this politically if they actually realize this and believe it to be true. Any policies that outright attempt to force a new paradigm and new way of living that proceeds toward sustainability will be met with overwhelming opposition by the very people it would be designed to help, much less the PTB.

While I listened to Obama’s speech, I had the constant thought go through my head that “God is he good at this”. It is such a pleasure, in one sense, to finally hear an articulate thoughtful, educated person lay out their thoughts and policies. That alone is quite a change from the last 8 years. But, keep in mind; it is still a speech, not the actions. And, while in an hour or so, nobody could give all the justification for what they want to do, we can judge what he said from what was omitted. You will notice that there was no solid data presented for his brief mention of his energy policy and why it would work. The main focus was to put people to work, and not what the outcome would be. Does this constitute another government boondoggle and excessive spending program? Do we really need gigantic government spending programs to update and repair roads and bridges to support more car culture and suburban living? Do we really need to spend the money for support of the suburban housing industry and financing? Should we really be spending huge sums of money to support the mafia types that have run our economy for years?

The bottom line is that as citizens we do not have the power to move the government in any particular direction, no matter how justified. Witness the massive opposition to the original bank bailouts. We now can only wait and see what transpires with the new crew. Personally, I hold no illusions that there will be a long term recovery of the system and on an individual basis, better be ready for it. If my gloomy outlook proves to be wrong, so much the better. I am still living the life style I want and in the meantime, will continue to prepare for the worst.

36 comments:

MoonRaven said...

Thank you for talking about the differences between the informal (or, as you say, real) economy and the formal economy that's taught to us and controlled by the government, business, and the media. (I haven't read Sharon Astyk yet, but I'm sure I will. This column is just another reason to do so.) When you point out that much of what we do is not part of the formal economy (not just the work of 'housewives', but everytime we garden and either eat the food ourselves or just give it to our friends, we are acting outside of the system), it makes it clear that the power of capitalism is just something we have been brainwashed into believing--it is not as all encompassing as its proponents want us to believe. Mini-economies like the farmers market you describe or systems of local currencies that keep money in our community are also challenges to the corporate system. We need to keep supporting each other and building those little systems. If the current system collapses we will need them, and if it doesn't--even if we are all wrong about things like climate change and peak oil--we are still building something that empowers and connects people, and that is a useful end in itself.

murph said...

moonRaven

You bet.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

Hitler was good at making speeches too and look what happened to him. Yeh, I know that was a cheap shot and Obama is nothing like him. Hitler had popular support at the beginning though and he was the one who put the German economy back together after super capitalism had sent it crashing around everybody’s ears, so he was well liked at that time. It was only when it was too late and the nature of his foreign indulgences became apparent that ordinary people started doubting the wisdom of their choice. Mind you, we never would have had the Palestinian problem if he would have won; nor the NeoCon problem either. I have seen his performances at Nuremburg and spotting what is going on is a lot easier if you don’t understand the language. With 10,000 or more assembled in front of him he starts off barely audible so that everybody is straining to hear what he is saying. When he has everybody on the hook he gradually notches the pitch up as he makes his points until we get the pointing and lectern thumping ranting and raving crowd cheering performances we normally associate with him.

Anyway, over here in the police state of Belgium, the black economy was well and thriving 10 – 15 years ago, particularly in the catering and construction industries but now it is shadow of its former self. Now if you are in somebody else’s house when the work control rings on the bell and you happen to answer the door with a duster in your hand, you are banged to rights and it really is like that. When my son in law was self building his house his helpers were checked for papers about four times during the course of construction. Still, as we are frequently told “If you don’t do anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about”.

MoonRaven said...

You are running on a parallel track to the Archdruid this time. JMG's latest post is on the difference between money and wealth (which appears about the same as the difference between the formal and informal economies) and the futility of investment strategies. I guess great minds... (etc)

Publius said...

great post

Anonymous said...

Excellent read Murph.

Have something in regard to it but will say later when i calm down from the following experience and insights/
please bear with me on this,

Given the fact that i am of native american decent with a mixed piece of something else, and the fact that i believe that native americans arrived here on spaceships and europeans arrived from beneath rocks with a handy talent of turning mother earth into people killing machines and boats to transport their useless asses around the world to conquer everything in sight, well.........not to say before someone takes offense at these words that there are a few that just never went along with the program but they are in the minority for damn sure.( i could be wrong) and
taking their shitty little jesus along with them everywhere to salve conscience about the raping and killing that they found so enjoyable on saturday and finding forgiveness on sunday,..........
ok just reading RAS'S link about the island of .......French Guadeloupe: ........ and the fact that white fucks own 90 % of it? what the fuck!! if i was there i would of burned every goddam thing in sight , the nerve of those white useless bags of shit that deserve whatever they get!! and death is just to easy and quick for the torture of mind and body they inflect on every other human they come across.

ok, its been awhile since i've muttered insanities at this here sacred council cause actually i'm not smart enough to understand the intricacies of modern raping where for a few pesos you can have someone else to the raping for you.
i do understand RAPE,
i have now come to the conclusion that every gun toting hired psychopath is a rapist using the gun they tote as a penis of power to do exactly what they wish to do, this came across the other day when perchance i happen to have the experience of driving one of the sons unlicensed car and was pulled over for it and given a ticket, my truck was loaned out to someone else and getting to the post office was really a priority for some known reason that now seems more as a setup by myself just to experience the face to face with the newly hired gunslinger.
i was a block from my house, the red and blues came on behind me, i kept driving on and turned into my driveway and stepped out, the fucking cop pulled in right behind me bumper to bumper,,(see there?)jumped out of the village's patrol car with a face so full of rage i thought the cocksucker was going to shoot me.!!! he said i know you saw my lights!!! i said so what? i am only a block from home, he says when you see the lights, YOU STOP NOW!!!! i says to him in my mind '' if you weren't wearing the fucking gun i would of tried to whip your ass!'' course he was in his twenties and probably would of put me in the hospital , newly hired to reinforce the drive by shootings and gang violence that goes on 24/7 in this little village of 500 people half of which are retired and in the ole folks home another quarter kids,dogs,cat, deer, occasional friendly harmless black bears,
needless to say i have already been to the village controllers and told them that the psychopath they hired is craping in his own back yard and trying to build his job security by molesting the town folk with tickets up the wazoo.
HE WILL BE GONE SOON ! thats what has happened to about seven or eight of the bastards that have came here and tried their gestapo on us in the last nine years since i've moved here.

but just think about , here you are unprotected with a psycho gun toting cocksucker that uses his gun as a penis to instill the fear in the mind of the hapless victim into total compliance and have no recourse but to just bend over and hope he uses a decent amount of grease before he rams it in.................no? ok. well thats what they invented DENIAL for, because just try and tell the cop to go fuck himself and see what happens. ...............no? didn't think so.

the world we live in and sustain by our compliance of fear drenched cerebral connections is just the setting for the psychos to come out and play, given the arms and the authority to shoot to kill is just to much to resist, and when the killing stops the psycho gets suspended with pay until they find that is was justifiable and let that be a lesson to those that would dare to voice their disagreement,

nothing new here, it just hit home about the sickness that pervades a christian society that has created this nightmare which allows the creatures they have invented to move among us at will.
When will the guns and guts come out to dispose of these psycho bloodsuckers.?

Other then that, spring has sprung and today we are in the middle of a huge snowstorm , already about four inches and coming down so hard its difficult to even see the ally from my square teepee.
so time to bring back out the snow shovels .
Have not posted for a good long while but have been keeping up with your excellent posts and comments brothers and sisters.
aho
mf

murph said...

Hello Montana,

Justifiable rant my man, Good to have you step in and take the talking stick.

The penalties for not obeying the rules get stiffer and stiffer. Some rules seem to have the purpose of keeping us from mayhem and such. Others....well. Problem is, none of them are evenly applied, any of them. Would perhaps be easier to swallow if they were.

I don't know if I have told this story before. I was in the local gun shop a few years ago and some guys were talking about being arrested for DUI and what it took to make it go away, namely a lot of bucks. Now I have a thing about drunk driving and I hope this doesn't offend. But I have had numerous friends crippled or killed by them, I have had 2 cars totaled out by them and my brother survived 14 years being paralyzed, aphasia, and brain malfunctions from a drunk driver. The ass hole that did my brother had numerous arrests for DUI and never spent a day in jail, still had his license and still drove. He did however have bucks to make it go away. Needless to say, I found out where he lived and had a few violent fantasies about that. So I guess I approve of prohibitions against driving and drinking. As an example.

But then again, every time I hear someone remark that 'there aught to be a law to....' I go a little bit ballistic too. We already got a stack 4 feet tall of laws governing almost every aspect of human behavior.

\Sigh, enough rant today.

freeacre said...

So good to hear from you, Montana. What would we do without our esteemed Cherokee/hippy Elder providing the unswerving moral compass that guides our footsteps. A good dose of righteous indignation and Divine Discontent is good medicine, I think.
It looks like we have a good chance of winning this election to put a stake in the heart of the "Local Rule" that would make these $30,000 unsustainable septic systems mandatory and pave the way for resort development around here. The ballots are out and will be counted starting March 10. Won't be long now. Even if we lose, the collapse will make it impossible to enforce the dumbass thing, and the commissioners are so hated by now, that in the next election, they will be gone.
I just filled out an application to serve on the La Pine Planning Commission that is supposed to work up a plan for the next 20 years. I figure if I get on, it will be great fun.
It's snowing here, too, and I'm feeling a day of all the Godfather movies played back-to-back coming on... having been raised by a Sicilian, it's like mental soul food to me. Maybe I'll make cannoli. oh, boy.

stoney13 said...

I'm having FUN with my bathroom!

I'm having fun with my bathroom, because half of it is on the front porch, and the other half is in the front lawn! My neighbors stare with mounting concern at the ever growing pile of porcelain!

Oh, brothers and sisters! Am I having fun with my bathroom!

And spiders!!! Holy shit! Have I seen some HUGE ass spiders! Who even knew they were out and about in February! Monster tarantula- looking wolf spiders! Harmless as hell, but huge and freaky when they climb up on your drill-bit case, and watch you hang floor joists!

One of them hangs out on the wall on the other side of the center floor beam, where I'm replacing the rot from the plumbing leaks. He just sits there and watches me work. Sometimes I catch myself talking to him, and yesterday Hazel caught myself talking to him!

"Who are you talking to?" Hazel demanded.

"The spider on the wall over here.", I told her.

"You're crazy!", she declared.

"You knew that when you married me!", I replied

That one always works because it's true, and I know it, and so does she!

We are the mushroom people, Murph! The government has discovered, that as long as they feed us bullshit, and keep us in the dark, things always work out pretty good for them! Well informed people, are no good to them!

Look how complicated the very laws that dictate our lives are! The whole thing positively REEK of hippocracy and prejudice! And if that wasn't enough, along comes Bush, and his jolly band of clowns, and try to take what little protection we have away from us!

And don't even get me started on the cops! Oh MF I feel your pain! Over armed, and under brained, they forget that they serve the public instead of the other way around. Cops don't like to be told that you pay their salaries, but once in a while they need to be reminded!

The best thing to do is make them write you a ticket, then fight the ticket in court. Once you get them on the stand, their badge means shit!

You can ask them anything you want!

When the prosecution objects, you say "leads to credibility" and the judge says over-ruled, and then you ask him whatever you want to about the case, and if you're slick you can trip him up, and make him look like a complete ass!

And if it's one of the young fuckers, with the inflated sense of self worth, he'll blow up on the stand, and launch into the "Thin Blue Line" speech they taught him in the academy! That always pisses off the judge, and bores the shit out of the jury! Both a plus for you!

A good one is to ask whether he locks his locker at the station. If he says yes, then ask him why in the company of such honest individuals as his fellow officers does he feels the need? Always good for several seconds of fish- faced gaping!

Fish face gaping is ALWAYS good for you! It makes the cop look like he's trying to make something up!

When he finally throws his hands up, in exasperation, say, "No further questions.", and leave him gasping on the stand!

It really makes the cops look stupid when individuals like you and me rip them new assholes on the stand. They start leaving you alone really quick after the story goes around!

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

Another good one is to ask the cop if it his intention to exceed his authority. Then you can (try) to get into a discussion about where the limits of his authority lie. If the offence gets to court you can say “Your honour, when I asked the officer to outline the limits of his authority he beat my head against the hood with one hand whilst he cuffed me with the other. As a citizen all I wanted to do was ensure that what was going on was in fact legal”. You can even beat your own head against the hood later and get some official pickies taken holding that days newspaper.

You could try getting all friendly with the cop and say “Hey – aren’t you that guy out of the Village People” then you wave your arms above your head chanting Y.M.C.A.
Yeh – too right.

If you do want to get up in front of the beak to put up a defence you can always say “OK gov, it’s a fair cop, put on the jewellery: I’ll come quietly”. They can’t resist reading that one out in court.
Yeh, I agree, over tooled and under brained sounds about right to me. Have you noticed that cops friends are always other cops; they are a class that is more apart than southern states blacks in the 60’s or would befriending ordinary people be construed as consorting with the enemy.

Anonymous said...

I hope you were drinking beer while doing the bathroom. I find that beer makes things go sooooo smoothly.

Dude

Shadowfax said...

Re: formal economy...This brings to mind your battles with the local county about waste disposal and composting toilets.

This only re-enforced my idea- i will not live on land that I pay taxes on.
that would mean I owe someone.
I will be a squatter on the fringe.
My base will be my sailboat/seastead/doomstead.

See me on the tide line

mrs p said...

freeacre...aaah canole, yum. Made some lasagna this a.m. to trade for some parts for the motorcycle. Snow and back to back godfather sounds cozy. Your descriptions make post cards in my head.

We continue to prepare for the worst in spite of our hope for changes...the dinosaurs will hang on for a long time meanwhile new life springs forward where troutclans thrive...together we make the farm and the informal economy. chao bella

freeacre said...

mrs.p, I hear you, My Sister. I think is is good to look for simple ways to soothe the soul in these times of challenge. Peasants the world over, after all, have perfected coping with hardship and raised it to an art form. Comfort food, hand-made gifts, folk art, songs, dancing, little activities that amuse children for free, etc. are all things we need to cultivate in addition to the more hard core stuff. Maybe we could put together a book, "What to Do When the ipods Go Down," or something.
It might be a good idea to attempt to go one day per week disconnected from the computer and the television. So, far, I have not been able to do that.
Shadowfax, yeah, I can sympathize with your position as well. I thought that once we finally owned a piece of land free and clear, that we'd be free. Trouble is there is no "free and clear." The fuckers just won't leave ya alone. My alternative fantasy is a houseboat or a raft, like in Huckleberry Finn.

RAS said...

I'll have a more substantial comment to make later on the post and mf's rant, but I just wanted to drop in to say I've had a terrible week and it went from bad to worse today when the words 'cracked foundation' were uttered.

I'm going to bed. Sheesh.

RAS said...

I think the future is all about the informal economy. It is going to grow and grow as industrializatio winds down. When I was in sociology I saw a paper once where someone had calculated the commercial value of all the domestic duties a housewife performs -cooking, cleaning, etc -and found that it came to well over $100k a year -and that was 20 years ago.
Industrialization has been all about moving things from the home and the informal economy to the formal one -making people pay for things that were once free. Hence it's been necessary to denigrate housewives, housekeepers, nannies, etc because they do work that can't be transformed into some fat cat CEO's future earnings.

Dude, even if you live on a boat you will still have to pay registration, dock fees, taxes, port privilige charges, and a dozen other things. Unless you stay at sea most of the time and that isn't possible. You also can't grow your own food. ;-)

I had the same reaction mf when I read that article. They have a right to rebel. I would be,too!

Anonymous said...

But RAS,
having lived on the beaches in Mexico for months at a time and meeting people coming and going on their beautiful sailing boats,even one that was a trimaran
that a couple of school teachers that lived next door to each other spent five years building, in the back yard, tore down the fences dragged it to the ocean loaded up their passel of assorted kids and dogs and left for a life on the ocean.
i ran into them in a little fishing village called San Blas. (the use to have a foundry to make church(uuggg) bells and also a factory to process sea turtles, anyway when i met them they were in the little inlet by the village and were having biology lessons on deck with the kids taking the insides of fish (later for lunch) drawing pictures of them and applying the appropriate names to those insides,
the deal of was though that almost everything it took to survive in those days could be found in the ocean or on one of the thousands of beaches that had no roads to them. also i learned from them that there were others that lived on their boats and traveled the world together and would meet others in remote places throughout the globe and would exchange shit that they acquired here and there/.some of these people traveled in groups, ocean going nomads, sweet huh? that was a long time ago but hey the ocean is still there.

THE NUTHOUSE LAND WHERE ONE ARGES WITH ONE SELF AND LOSSES THE ARGUMENT.

Economy? we don't need no fucking economy! i suppose my ancestors needed a wally world to survive the hard winters but somehow the ancient ones made it, and made it without one. or two.
ok i know this is bullshit and those days are gone gone gone, however, maybe not, there is absolutely no reason that developing into small self sustainable communities can and will happen, cause what is the alternative.? humm, alter-native? personally after chatting with langosta about this, yes she still puts up with my raving insanity bouts, she calls them good medicine, why i do not know. but she explains that the change in human conscientiousness will come hand in hand with the help of the 12th monkey thingie,only way more intense because time is getting short for the two-leggeds and the split is going to occur where the two-leggeds will have to make a ,,,, what she calls a decision as a not even close proximity to an understanding to the actual.... and at this point i took another toke and started thinking about stoneys bout with under the house encounters with eight-leggeds, fucking sacred, yet nasty, scary,creepies that make a persons mind not pay full attention to the job at hand, i know cause i work on old houses here in the village and much of it requires crawling under them for plumbing needs.
man if you ain't had a big assed black widow crawl down your neck in the semi-dark places under old houses you ain't really experienced actual life yet!!
those little fuckers will make a grown man scream like little girl, if only inside incase maybe if there are other dip shits around assisting such a dumb assed thing to do. but hey! someone has to do it and i guess at least stoney and i being former shape shifters extraordinaire, because we can change ourselfs into shiftless buzzards and split when the going gets hairy eight-legged.
well anyway, good luck on the plumbing stoney, i can really relate, and if i lived nearer i would come over with a first aid kit and roll fatties and shout useless words of encouragement for ya. hey! whats a brother for i ask ya.

from the village idiot ( can back up that statement)
aho
mf&bug

freeacre said...

Ho, ho... you've got great stories, Montana. We watched a Netflix last night entitled, "Humbolt County." Bet you'd love it. You, too, Stoney.

How're you all during this snow storm? Palooka, ras..and all you guys from the East that don't speak up..everybody OK?

I'm making split pea soup with homemade oatmeal bread. The goofy chickens are walking around with a bunch of snow on their backs. And, the murphinator is going back and forth from the workshop to the kitchen getting little parts and stuff to fire up our wheat mill. He hasn't run the thing for about 25 years, but it seems to work just fine. It's this mondo mill that you can plug in, or crank, or run with a bicycle! Wow.

RAS said...

All's fine in Alabama. At least as far as the weather is concerned. We got about an inch of snow and it was gone before noon. The cold, however, is sticking around. The dogs loved the snow. My little one came in covered from head to tail in it.
I still haven't found a job, though. Things really suck right now.

Anonymous said...

Holy crap check out this shit;

http://rense.com/general85/give.htm

this is scary stuff, just when we think it can't get any worse.
mf

Anonymous said...

RAS, girl come to montana and starve with us, you'd fit right in with the rainbow girls that live here and are putting together all kinds of activities regarding the coming demise of the american nightmare , whoops, i mean dream.
we are growing fast of people showing up here from as far away as the east coast and it always seems as an unlikely course of events that get them here.
of course this place is in a cul de sac snuggled up against a mountain range to the west and the rockies to the east, o yeah in case you never came across the meaning of those words before they mean ''bottom of a sack'' (::

just had to to chase three deer out of the back yard, they stand on their back legs and wreck my home made bird feeders for the sunflower seeds inside,they look like they had a good winter, fat and slick looking , course the valley is full of newborn calfs jumping around like grass hoppers to so yep spring is lookin good.
aho
mf

Anonymous said...

Well this kinda of fits with the post..



http://www.opednews.com/articles/Goodbye-farmers-markets-C-by-Linn-Cohen-Cole-090303-287.html

Ely

Anonymous said...

Maybe Montana will have an influx of new residents shortly...

http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2009/cbarchive_20090303.html

Ely

Anonymous said...

fa... sorry, been snowed! tee hee. actually... high 'n dry on my end of town. thx for askin. and i really have been snowed... p

murph said...

Ely,

That link deserves to be looked at carefully. If true, we gotta decide how to resist if it is passed.

murph said...

Ely,

Am I to presume you are talking about preachers moving to Montana? Lol Think Montana freeman might have some discouraging words on that one. he he he

Jacques de Beaufort said...

check out this great Nate Hagens interview (The Oil Drum)
http://drop.io/terminal_moraine_march_3_2009

Anonymous said...

Ely good link but it didn't open, but i think this one might ,http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675

excellent on the part of the texas girl
Suzanna Gratia-Hupp on the second amendment.

you know it came to me when i moved to this incredibly beautiful state how evolved to know that my right to bare arms in spite of my felonious imprisonment for growing illegal flowers was maintained by the people of this state,
as a side there were numerous friends there serving 5 years mandatory simply for being an ex felon in possession of a fire arm, it destroyed more then one family just for this bullshit; yeah i know ignorance is no excuse but fuck it there it is , fucking politicians.
everyone should see this video it really socks it to the kiss ass lawmakers,


and yeah murph there are five fucking churches in this little village but the folks that keep the shit going are dying quickly and the newcomers here are progressives, rainbowers, outlaws,(good ones) and people that just want to get away from the insanity of the outside world, soooooooooo
anyone with a good heart regardless of your past might have a home here, in the sacred womb of mother earth called hot springs, this vortex is privy to excellent fishing, camping,hunting,hiking,snow mobile, atv's, good little airport for smuggling whatever, but one thing, the people that come here with evil intent don't stay long for some strange reason.
this ex felon is off for a little target pratice,
peace
aho
mf

Anonymous said...

to in case the site disappears,

The Montana resolution recalls, "When Montana entered into statehood and adopted the Compact as a part of the Montana Constitution in 1889, included was a provision guaranteeing the right to bear arms to 'any person.'"

The resolution continues, "To be clear, the wording of the right to bear arms reservation in the Montana constitution is exactly the same today as it was in 1884."

Furthermore, the Montana resolution says, "There is no question that the contract into which Montana entered for statehood was predicated upon an understanding that the people of Montana would benefit from an individual and personal right to bear arms, protected from governmental interference by both the federal and Montana constitutions. That was the clear intent of the parties to the contract."

The resolution ended by stating sternly, "A collective rights holding in Heller would not only open the Pandora's box of unilaterally morphing contracts, it would also poise Montana to claim appropriate and historically entrenched remedies for contract violation."

In other words, representatives and senators in the State of Montana unequivocally put Washington, D.C., on notice that it would not tolerate the infringement of its citizens' right to keep and bear arms. I don't think I'm reading anything into the resolution by assuming that they were implying that they would secede before they let the federal government trample their Second Amendment liberties. (Plus, I've just been told that New Hampshire may also be preparing to propose such a resolution.)

Montana has it exactly right!

plus we have no state SALES TAX

mf

RAS said...

Here's an off-topic question for Dude: how is that guru.com site working out? I'm interested in it but I'm a little wary.

It's in the mid 60s here today. Sunday we had snow. Go figure.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

mf

That Rense Article was very interesting if it is true as was the embedded link at the end. It is no wonder the individual states are getting worried. The fact that they are getting worried gives the article a measure of validity. The problem I cannot see through is why the Illuminati would back China at the expense of the West. For one thing there are considerably more of them even though they expect less and also what is the relationship between these two. China must know what the Illuminati represents and if Rense and thereby us know of the Chinese leaders speech, then the American Government knows about it also, so why should they willingly give away eminent domain. You are also right about New Hampshire. Here is the list of States that have already or are going through the process of declaring their sovereignty. The State of Washington (2009); New Hampshire (2009); Montana (2009); Hawaii (2009);Michigan (2009); Arizona 2008); Oklahoma (2008); Georgia 1996); California (1994). Lined up and ready to go are: Colorado;
Pennsylvania; Arkansas; Idaho; Indiana; Alaska; Kansas;
Alabama; Nevada; Maine and Illinois. Wyoming and Mississippi may also follow suit. This makes 9 definites, 11 in the process and 2 possibles, making 22 in all. If the number reaches 33 (2/3 of States) they collectively have the right to dissolve the government and form a new Constitution. I believe this means that since the New USA would be a new country, they could do anything they wished with the currency and renege on any previous deals and treaties. That possibility would be more than interesting.

Ely

What is going on with the farmers markets is a natural consequence of the Codex Alimentarius which was ratified into being on Jan 1 2009. Over here in Europe you cannot sell a sandwich unless it was made on a food grade stainless steel work top. Here is a strange little quirk in the rules; machines for dicing meat can be made from any crappy grade of mild steel since the fat in meat stops them from ever going rusty.

Anonymous said...

Murph, MF, y Belgium

I think some days I am slowly losing my mind.... I am seeing conspiracy everywhere, and most days I am left wondering where it will all end. Then I have to think about why I am this way and I to back to the original Project For a New American Century reading material and I have to believe that some of my suspicions are somewhat founded.

They have to put a lot of control in place if they are to carry out such a plan as PNAC, and those involved are all about control so.... maybe it is just easier to think I am losing my mind.

Yes the food thing. I have been reading a ton of articles over the past few years and if taken as individual articles you would not see the move toward control of the food industry/ supply. A good film to watch concerning this taking place is called A world according to Monsanto. It spells it out regarding Monsanto but there are others that want a level of control and they are very powerful and well funded lobby group/govt pimping entities. If there is even a rumor of bills passing regarding the food industry control it has to be looked at immediately.

Belgium, I chuckle a bit when I read your reply. Here in Colombia it would be the opposite of what you speak. I worry a lot of times when I see the lax effort regarding food safety. There is a middle ground I am certain of that, but the real concern for me is that control thing again. I just don't like the idea of the govt anywhere bowing to the pressure of a few corps to gain control of an industry such as the food industry such that they will decide who eats and who doesn't and if this legislation is true then the USA will be on track for exactly that.

Now the Montana state thing... yes damn straight good ol' Montana has it right. I have to believe that the fathers who wrote up the Bill of Rights must be spinning in their collective graves. Can you imagine the outcome if back in the war with the British the British wrote the rules such that any opposition to them could only use knives and arrows in a gun battle??? This in essence is what is taking place regarding the 2nd amendment and yet there is very little alarm over what is being proposed.

So you as a patriot having had enough of the corruption of your govt and their supporters want to revolt only you are not allowed weapons of equal fire power to those who oppress you.

No, what people really need to do is rent the movie "V" and really understand what is going to happen in the not to distant future, then start to analyze all that has been eroded as granted by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights the decide if freedom is worth defending. The little lady from Texas got it right, the legislators in Montana have it right, the 2nd amendment was where it is in the list for a damn good reason, so the average American Patriot can defend themselves in a way equal to those who would overpower them.

Those elected representatives should be afraid of the people, not the people afraid of their elected representatives. Maybe a few heads need to start rolling then the speed to start thinking straight will increase...

So MF maybe in the not too distant future you will be getting a lot of new neighbors who still believe that defending one self is to actually take a gun to a gunfight and and freedom is worth shedding blood for. Who knows maybe some of them night even be preachers complete with assault rifles..hehehe

Later then..

Ely

Anonymous said...

"Nations' Economies"

Anonymous said...

from mike ruppert's REALLY BAD FUCKING NEWS dept...

There is one story that really stuck out today. It seems that someone at Baxter Pharmaceuticals "accidentally" mixed H5N1 bird flu with a human virus into one vaccine and sent it off to Eastern Europe where it was injected into humans. For those who have been with me a long time you know what kind of investigative journalism we did on biowarfare and how it would be used to reduce population eventually. You know how well we documented the relentless quest for gene-specific bioweapons. Well, the only thing that was saving us from H5N1 bird flu was that it was generally considered not transmittable to humans. (Of course we known that it already has been on a small scale.) But here's a pharmaceutical company that we have written about at FTW (I think also in Rubicon) that's accomplished what nature couldn't. This story has zero credibility for how the screw up occurred because even the most basic lab protocols would prevent it. Combine DNA from H5N1 with a human viral DNA, inject into a human, and then watch the perfect mutation take place... The mother of all superbugs. I don't have time to rewrite what I have already written. In fact none of us have time to slow down for those who don't get it or who slow us down. (Combat veterans know this attitude very well.) Go to Rubicon and go to FTW and search for biowarfare or Baxter.

as everyone knows ruppert has written some of the most chilling investigative stuff in the last 10 years and along the way offered advice that, at times may have sounded a bit extreem. but now looks like premonition. but this mar 2 blog sign-off beats em all...

Now is an excellent time to find someone you really, really care about and make some serious, passionate love. If you don't have someone then do it to yourself...

If you don't love yourself, stay away from my dog.

http://www.mikeruppert.blogspot.
com/ .... p

Shadowfax said...

Hey Ras...I'm growing food on my sailboat as we speak..check out the book sailing the farm(and others)

People have been seasteading for thousands of years.geeze.
And it doesn't mean I can't have a garden on land too!!!

Shadowfax said...

oh yes...people also assume since you have a boat you will rush out and sail away across the ocean and pay port fees and insurance and run into Somolia pirates etc etc.


ummm...why would I want to leave BC waters?I can squat on any hundreds of miles of coast and travel around on my boat as well.
whats not to like?
W