Monday, September 27, 2010

Talking Means ... What?


A new beautiful rock circle left in the wilderness by Hot Springs Wizard

by murph

On September 23rd, Montana posted a comment on the last posting which I think is very important. One part of his comments; “what about when we string an entire sentence together with each word in the sentence interpreted according to the experience each has with that word. see what i mean,? in reality there is no truth in actual comprehension as to what another says,”

What I take that to mean is that we can never really understand what another person is thinking by what they say, or write for that matter.

I have touched on this subject before, several times. I want to examine this in a bit more detail. Montana, if I put it out there different than you see it and misrepresent what you said let me know. Anyway, this is my expansion in my own style on the subject.

I assert that communication between humans is tenuous at its best. This statement is based on what Montana said and my own experience and study of the process.

All language is a system of symbology, that is, sounds strung together that mean something relating to the external reality we experience.

This symbology is unique to the individual person due to the fact that all of our individual experiences are normally unique events relating to the individual, with same exceptions. But, in almost all cases, the interpretation of those events will be different than other individuals sharing the event. This has been tested over and over again to the same conclusion.

There are thousands of volumes written on the study of what people mean when they are communicating. Copi and his “Symbolic logic” I consider one of the best.

This symbolism gets in the way of understanding and can have disastrous consequences.

The only solution I can see to this problem is for human to develop absolute empathy, that is, the ability to know what another person is feeling or thinking when talking or writing. Doesn’t appear this will happen, at least in my lifetime.

It does appear to me that the understanding of another person’s use of verbal symbols can be very enhanced by close association for an extended period of time, depending on similarity of experiences and interpretation of those experiences.

What this lack of understanding of the symbology in communication lends itself well to what we call propaganda. That is, the convincing of people to accept a particular notion of reality by the twisting, spin, redefinition of words, and the way the words are strung together to produce an emotional reaction. We are being besieged by this in the news in all its various forms, but principally TV. Look at how the advertising industry uses this. With little exception, we are presented with something for sale that is associated principally with some aspect of sex, or inadequacy, or fear, of desires, or---, on and on. We are whipsawed back and forth by this propaganda to experience fear, hopefulness, anger, sexual frustration, caring and a multiplicity of other abstract emotions as a means of control of our perceptions of the reality around us. In all cases that I can think of, this propaganda always contain assumptions that are not presented as such. This appears consistently in religion, politics and personal communication. If a person is attempting to truly point out his perceptions of reality, he must also include his assumptions. An assumption is a statement that can be backed up by observations, (the most common way of making assumptions) empirical testing, or even theoretical assertions, and is hardly ever addressed. We are all guilty of that omission. There is good reason for this. It would complicate communication by orders of magnitude, and the assumption is that there is a common experience that can be included and drawn upon, which I have shown above to be complete nonsense in almost all cases that can be sited. So we abbreviate our communication by making assumptions that the listener has a shared experience and perceives it the same way. Thus, as Montana says, “in reality there is no truth in actual comprehension as to what another says,” Also, notice how words are twisted around to mean something else. I had a very good friend that once insisted that greed is a very good thing; we have greed for food and for air etc. I never did get a response to the question as to where in hell he got that definition nor that the common usage of the word had nothing to do with that concept. I’m old enough to notice that over my life time, principally from the main stream media, how key words have been spun into meaning something quite different than the original meaning. That particular process seems to be speeding up in my perception. Notice what the word “terrorist” now means. Go ahead, look it up in a dictionary older than 20 years and compare it to a new dictionary. Wikipedia goes on for pages in the discussion on its meaning. There evidently is no agreed upon definition internationally. And yet, the word is slung around within the media and conversations and assumed that the reader/listener knows what you are talking about. The operational meaning from old dictionaries and old political science texts indicate it is a means of scaring (terrifying) civilian populations into compliance by threats or use of violence, principally killing. In its discussion of “terrorist” it says; “In November 2004, a United Nations Secretary General report described terrorism as any act "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act".[18] And; "Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them."[22] One more; A definition proposed by Carsten Bockstette at the George C. Marshall Center for European Security Studies, underlines the psychological and tactical aspects of terrorism:
Terrorism is defined as political violence in an asymmetrical conflict that is designed to induce terror and psychic fear (sometimes indiscriminate) through the violent victimization and destruction of noncombatant targets (sometimes iconic symbols). Such acts are meant to send a message from an illicit clandestine organization. The purpose of terrorism is to exploit the media in order to achieve maximum attainable publicity as an amplifying force multiplier in order to influence the targeted audience(s) in order to reach short- and midterm political goals and/or desired long-term end states."[25]

But I guess that is just plain old collateral damage to accomplish a political end. Now days, a “terrorist” insists on adherence to Constitutional principles. How weird is that?

Here is a report that is worth while going through. http://www.foia.cia.gov/2025/2025_Global_Governance.pdf

Want some more? Take a look at this little news story and tell me who is being a terrorist if you haven’t read about it yet.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-war-protesters-cry-foul-over-fbi-terrorism-raids-20100925-15rkr.html

As I stated above, it appears to me that long association with others can lead to a better understanding of what they actually mean in the verbal symbols they use. Maybe what Jesus really was talking about when he stated that you should love another as yourself?

Of course we still have to deal with the psychopaths that are going to be found in any human society. And god knows, our supposed leaders are not going to be concerned with shit like this. They consistently manipulate verbal symbols to get the reaction they desire from the listeners. It’s all about manipulating perceptions. Dig Obama, a very charismatic speaker, but he is no less guilty of this than Bush or any other elite out there vying for power and money. At least he knows how to use a complete sentence.

So where does this leave us? Because we don’t really have alternatives, as I see it, those people that are aware of the problems in communicating with symbols (language) will continue to try and clarify and define the mental processes behind the symbols so that the people they are trying to communicate with have some understanding of the points made. Notice how long the regulars of this blog site have been around and how much change has gone on in perceptions. It appears to me that we have achieved at least partial understanding of what is being said. None of us will ever have total understanding; our backgrounds are just too varied. But, we keep edging toward the total understanding. I suspect that as this kind of understanding increases, emotional closeness also increases between people and that is an anathema to those that hold power over our lives since their goal is to divide and conquer, which they have for the most part been successful.

All of this leads me to question whether or not I actually understand Henny Penny (our oldest hen) when she talks to me. Sigh. Just how much common experience do we really have? Lol.
So now, your assignment if you choose to accept it, is to go through this posting and look at the assumptions I have made, (remember the old TV series Mission Impossible?). Are they common to your experiences or not?

A lovely setting sun captured by our own Montana Freeman..

57 comments:

freeacre said...

Back in the day, when I was a crisis intervention trainer, I used to teach empathic listening skills and values clarification in a crisis intervention center. It was very challenging to teach people to really hear what others were telling them. We learned that we had to overcome blocks to our listening (for me, for instance, it was difficult to perceive fear). One think that is helpful is to reflect back to the person what it is that you heard. Then, the speaker has the chance to clarify or augment what he or she is trying to say. It's also important to be non-judgmental and not turn the subject around to yourself or YOUR feelings, which is done all the time in normal conversations.
Values clarification was even more difficult. Ten people can hear the same story. When you ask them to describe the characters in the story, you will get ten different answers. A character might be perceived as "smart," "crafty," "mean," or even "handsome." I remember a friend of mine asked "What makes you think he is handsome?" The woman responded, "Well, if the girl in the story slept with that asshole, he must have been handsome!"
lol... You see what I mean? We all embellish what we hear with what we bring to the table. Hopefully, this cyber campfire will continue to be open to one another's thoughts and opinions and not require that we all agree on everything, but instead, value all the thoughts and opinions presented in hopes of getting a more complete and enriched perception. Plus, we are always free to change our minds when we may be given another's slant on things.

mrs p said...

Great subject. Semantics and Communication, etc. Me mum and I were just disgussing this yesterday. We were talking about how everyone has their own interpretation of the spoken and written word, what they mean and how each person takes the meanings differently. Sometimes we take things the wrong way un-necessarily and it makes things into something they're not. The word she used that was in question or actually it's an expression, was: oxymoron She said she looked it up in Websters and it's actually not as "new" as she thought even though it has been modernized in it's use lately. Someone else looked it up in an Oxford dictionary and it had different meanings that were less modern and a bit more dark.
Not sure what point I'm making,, I'm just sayin. The English language in particular is sometimes complex and mis conveys what is actually meant. Beautiful Rock Photo BTW. A better way to communicate! Happy Fall to everyone. mrs p

mrs p said...

freeacre, remember in grade school the teacher would have us sit in a circle and pass around a sentence whispering it in each persons ear until it got back to the beginning. It would always be completely off what the original sentence was. And it gave every one a good belly laugh, even at that young age, to see how the interpretation got lost and changed. x, mrs p

Hotspringswizard said...

In all of the ways we communicate externally there will always be mis-understandings or mis-interpretations of course. As human interaction goes though there is much understanding of eachother that occurs through these various mediums of idea exchange. The more complex the messages communicated, the more chance for erroneous interpretations.

The various forms of communication are used for a wide array of purposes, and many times it has nothing to do with understanding other people ( as Murph also points out ). Some people use their language as a dagger, others to console, some use it to help themselves seek shelter, it enables some to be Chameleons, etc.

Still, its clearly better to have these means of sharing our thoughts than not to have them. Regarding the idea that people with shared experience being able to understand eachother more, I am always amazed at how often my wife and I come up with the same thought, at exactly the same time. Kinda erie but it also makes us laugh each time too :-) I've told you guys before about our little parakeet that appears to be able to sense specific changes in my mental activity, with no visible ques that could have alerted it to these changes. I know humans have an electrical aura so maybe the bird can somehow sense changes in properties like that, or something else we cannot sense.

External communication is in a sense our minds attempting to come outside our bodies. I see individuals as being all unique mental world's unto themselves, and if you were able to parce smaller and smaller those components that make each of us up as seperate " selfs ", then the more you would be able to see the myriad differances in the material structure of each, which manifest the differances in our external actions in such things as our forms of communication. This is in line with Murph's idea that we " each " come to the table with differant experiences.

And this brings to my mind the idea of whether there is actually a finite " truth " to things that exist outside of all of the living minds within humanity and all of our perhaps in the end, inaccurate notions of just what it is. Of course I understand that there are myriad religious beleifs that will affect one way or another the minds of those considering just what I have said above.

Communication will always be imprecise so I think its like the line in that Pink Floyd song " we just need to keep talking " and in doing this we will have a larger degree of understanding of eachother, its always a work in progress.

Why I come here to at times communicate with you folks for one is that there just are not hardly any people, like smaller than a handful of people in the relatively small orbits of my travels that disuss or even understand or aggree with the kinds of things we discuss here.

I appreciate the level of consideration, of tolerance exhibited by the various Trout Clan participants. As long as contributors are clearly trying to offer up some sort of contribution, even though it may not be of a point of view that one or the other may particularly share, if its comming from the heart with the notion of trying to help, trying to communicate thats all fine with me. Of course being a good listener is always a part of good communication.

continued

Hotspringswizard said...

I don't come here thinking my shared thoughts are going to change the world but maybe each of our varied thoughts shared here can change something in our individual lives, affecting also lives perhaps local to our situation.

I think the larger picture of whats happening the world is a building train wreck that cannot be stopped ( as I'm sure is the view of many of the viewers too ). So I just try on my occasional basis ( when I can get the time ) to share some new information perhaps, or some perspective of my own that might help in some way.

Now on to a bit of information, have you guys heard about the pentagon buying up all the newly release copies of a book titled " Operation Dark Heart "? A military officer wrote this book discussing the goings on in Afganistan and all of the information contained in this book was gained within the public domain ( not classified ) and yet our military is going ahead with this 1984 type move where books were burned by the Ministry Of Truth!

And you all probably have seen by now that this weekend the Obama Administration is citing " state secrets " concerns in trying to stop the lawsuit put forward by the civil liberties union to try and get the US citizen targeted for extra-judicial assasination to be able to have a trial first. Obama that scumbag crimminal is more than happy to kill a US citizen without trial with the one and only requirment being his say so, his thumb pointed down!

Then we have the eight homes in Chicago invaded by Homeland Security to literally in truth just scare and shut up anti war activist. Their computers were taken even though the Brownshirt Goons admit that there was no threat to the public and no arrest thus far have been made.

Its just more police state BS and we know its only going to get worse. Well thats enough for now and I'll pass along the Talking Stick. Freeacre I found a couple of years ago a long stick I really liked laying under water in Lake Tahoe. It was increadibly heavy when I pulled it up from the lake bottom and took it to my car. I brought it home and placed it standing up in my room. About a month later I picked it up to check it out and was amazed that it had become incredibly light, like it was not even wood at all! I want to sand it down and put a finish on it someday as I think it would make a perfect Wizard's Staff, or a Talking Stick too! I'll send you a photo of it sometime perched in some natural setting :-)

Hotspringswizard said...

Go here for some information on this Operation Dark Heart book:

http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/28753/what-do-the-pentagon-and-nazis-have-in-common/

Wholly Cow! I just saw on MSNBC that LA hit 113 today, a new record high. I read an article a couple of days ago citing that it looks pretty certain that the arctic ice volume will reach a new record low this year. Also here is a very good article about the hopeless state of climate change efforts:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/sep/20/climate-change-negotiations-failure

The short, happy life of climate change enlightenment

Hotspringswizard said...

I just saw on the weather channel that the 113 degree temp for LA is an all time ( since they have been keeping track ) record high. I gotta think of a way to bury our house ( we live in the desert near LA ) if this is what we are in for :-)

RW said...

So here we are immortal souls. feel my love for you all in these simple words.

everythings gonna be alright.

hows that grab ya?

RW

wv: speig

Zoner said...

RW, straight to the heart.

Thanks for that.

Have given up trying, myself. Words are inadequate. Still love reading all of the efforts of others.

Love to All,

Z

murph said...

Zoner,

Does your comment mean that you disagree with my contention that with time and effort, understanding can be made more accurate between people?

Anonymous said...

Questioning the validity of human verbal communication underscores the fragility of many of man's endeavors. History- telling, for one.

All of us can name a dozen examples of distorted history-- lies of commission or omission,-- perpetrated on the public during this latest, "low dishonest decade."

By all accounts, the assertion that 'history is written by the victors,' seems true enough.

If we can not hear, and know the speaking heart, how can we trust ourselves with scrawled lines upon a page?

Those who purport to have had relations with E.T.'s all express consensus that communication was both transparent and immediate, through telepathy.

Perhaps acknowledgment of this limitation means we're at the threshold of acquiring new skills.

This could be an answer to the PTB's attempt to shut down the web.

wv= revol

--rockpicker

Anonymous said...

Important news event yesterday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDhQTV3zB4c

-rp

Anonymous said...

well gosh murph, that whole thing was equally as well put as mf's inspiration for it. so i don't see much to challenge from my limited ability to understand either one of you fully. therein lay a great source of grief for me. that is, this not being fully on the same page cuz, hell, i really want to. which is to say the desire to understand others remains unrequited and exacberated by a limited amount of time to pursue toward satisfaction. i want to because, for one thing, i agree that as we do gain that we, as you put it, gain in emotional closeness. and... and this is a speculation of mine... it just might be the key that opens the door and holds the space for reciprocity. i think that means i'll be understood too. and accepted. and held close. in the meantime i feel slighted. cheated by some illusive monster that calls itself confusion. cuz hey, it can get lonely in here...


So if you're walking down the street sometime
And spot some hollow ancient eyes,
Please don't just pass 'em by and stare
As if you didn't care, say, "Hello in there, hello."

john prine

having said all that i agree w/z. words are inadequate and gettin the blame when there's more to it. which doesn't mean i disagree with murph. words can go a long way toward sassifying that desire for understanding within the realm of consciousness but can't complete the circle without the other half of the receipe that dwells in the realm of the non-verbal. trying to put that into words diminishes it by default as words alone are limiting. this other half of the receipe doesn't communicate in words.

which means alot of things amoung which include this attempt to write some explanation of it into words can only be a futile attempt. ya just have to feel it to know it. so i'll shut up... p

Anonymous said...

rp @ 9:28... well put... p

Anonymous said...

z... send me your snail mail adde. i got somethin i want to send you... offthewalls at bellsouth dot net... p

Zoner said...

Murph, I do not at all disagree - it is only my own frustration with finding so few that are "open" enough first of all, for true sharing and then being forced internally to question my own words the moment they emerge that causes me to be mostly silent. I just don't know ANYTHING anymore, so the best stance seems to be silent yet alert. Open and willing to receive that which seeks purchase in the heart. Not much communication in the normal sense there if you know what I mean.

Basically, I have ceased to be fascinated with my own brilliance. (chuckles)

The things that I know are true appear unspeakable at this point, and that is so OK. Maybe when we get to the point that conversation is for the purpose of raising all rather than convincing the false self of its value and preeminence, it will be different. One can only hope.

You all tend to speak my thoughts anyway. I have always preferred being the supporting player, never the front man. Maybe a moment to step on the booster for a quick solo, but then back to my place holding down the rhythm while the singer brings the real message.

Z

murph said...

Zoner and Palooka,

Have you read the works of Paul Ekman? He made some real detailed studies of non verbal communication that seems to be common to all humans, and, for that matter, some of the other primates inhabiting this planet. These non verbal communications are contained in very small muscle movements of the face (that are of less than a second of duration), and some gross gestures of the hands and also some body stances. Most of these are reflexive and not consciously controlled. Some CAN be consciously controlled. Principally, being able to detect these cues indicates a negation of what is being said verbally, or a cover for an emotional response, that is exposing a lie. It does not indicate what is actually meant or being felt. I would suppose that if people became adept at identifying all of these non verbal clues, that communication could become enhanced in some respects.

LOL Something more to work on.

Anonymous said...

murph... body knows. now, if we can just get mind to listen.

rp... on the vid and the contention by some, including the AF officer friend of the reporter, that 'they don't care'... we've all heard stories about mysterious intervention into events involving nuclear weaponry that can easily be construed as having been inspired by some intent toward averting destruction by nuclear attack and/or accident.

this, in my view, implies intent toward a greater good which implies further that they do care. it could be 'they' may not care about us who constantly prove by our actions that we don't care about each other or our home here. but maybe they care about what and how those actions could affect them and the larger home that is the U.

U and all that exist within it was/is built around energetic interactions including nuclear. more and more its becoming evident that we are poisioning ourselves and our home. not to mention our ability to blow it all to kingdom come. midst all this its not uncommon to hear the argument forwarded that the earth has always recovered. this argument has no basis in fact in the face of the current circumstances in context of known history. can life exist and sustain in anti-life environments?

the manhatten project is commonly recognized as the turning point in man's ability to understand the science involved and subsequently tinker with it toward potential outcomes. with that came one hellofa responsibility as to how we choose to use this knowledge and power. the primative condition of man left to his own devices has never been more evident and, one would think, should by now be recognized by ourselves. my guess is 'they've' known this all along. further, my guess is that, like with man, there are the good guys and there are the bad guys... p

freeacre said...

I watched that link to CNN regarding the UFO disclosure. I had read of it on several sites, but seeing it live had a far greater impact. So, then I watched for it on PBS Newshour and CBS with the despicable Katie Couric - and no mention. That figures, but I thought that if it was a CIA plant story, it would be on there. I don't know what it would take to get the idea accepted that there are, indeed, extra-terrestrials and that the government is involved with them to some extent.
Somewhat related, I think, is the survey of what Americans know of religion. It seems that we are as dumb about religion, for the most part, as we are about everything else. There was an interview with a man who is a devoted Evangelical who explained that he doesn't need to know about the history or facts of his religion because he goes "on faith." Meaning, I guess, that he believes what makes him feel good. In a way, that is related to what is believed about ET's. "Don't bother me with facts - I just have faith that there aren't any." So, until a grey alien appears on the 700 Club, I guess the majority will not believe it.
I have more hope for Europe, Asia, and South America. The Idiocracy rules here.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, I was listening to Jeffrey Smith talk about the frankenfish AquaBounty wishes to release into the wild, on Rense radio tonight.
Talk about junk science. Sheesh! These assholes don't give a damn about anybody or anything, other than money.

Smith said Canadian researchers, skeptical about safety claims, engineered some of their own salmon and put them in a tank with regular, wild salmon. Everything was fine, until the food was cut off. Then the frankenfish became aggressive and cannibalistic in order to satisfy their voracious appetites, wiping out the smaller, wild species.

What's wrong with a person who has no more sense of propriety than to screw with the dna of plants and animals that sustain the human species?

For profit, they dump integrity, abandon safety procedures and falsify reports. All this ruin, for a fistful of fiat paper that loses value by the hour.

Do you suppose these cretins know they're liars and dangerous menaces to humanity? I wonder if they would even be judged competent to stand trial?

-rp

wv= respires (how the tree of Life sequesters carbon)

Anonymous said...

It's nice having you in the band, Z. You, too, RW. When you wrote, "everything's going to be alright" my shoulders lowered about two notches. :)

Hotspringswizard said...

Since you guys are talking about aliens, I saw on the MSM that the UN has appointed a new Alien Ambassador position ( unless I heard something wrong with their " talking " ). And I'm wondering, just how does one prepare for this, maybe watch Men In Black perhaps :-)

For myself, I've not noticed any around my area, but my friend who lives in Safford, Arizona is always sending me e-mails of their communications to us about their plans to save the human race. I mean I'm thinking " how much more do we have to screw things up before they figure its time to do this? " :-)

But really, its a big Universe and it wouldn't supprise me if there were other entities bouncing around out there of one type or another. If they are here, maybe they haven't shown themselves to me yet because I scare them with my shaved head :-) I mean I'm trying real hard to make contact, leaving my symbols, circles and such out in the wilderness :-)

And something perhaps related, my brother who lives near Lake Shasta in northern cal was camping recently with his kids next to the pond by his house which is way out in the boonies, when suddenly they noticed a very bright light coming across from east to west over them, and my brother said it was quite low ( maybe a few thousand feet up ) but it was completely silent. They watched in go over them off towards the west for about 20 seconds then it just disappeared!

My brother is not one who I've ever heard account anything like that and he said its definitely the most un-explainable and weirdest thing he had ever seen in the night sky. I called him the next morning to make sure he and his kids had not been beamed up as test subjects :-)

Anonymous said...

"...Americans are the most gullible people who ever existed. They tend to support the government instead of the Constitution, and almost every Republican and conservative regards civil liberty as a coddling device that encourages criminals and terrorists.

The US media, highly concentrated in violation of the American principle of a diverse and independent media, will lend its support to the witch hunts that will close down all protests and independent thought in the US over the next few years. As the Nazi leader Joseph Goebbels said, "think of the press as a great keyboard on which the Government can play."

An American Police State was inevitable once Americans let "their" government get away with 9/11. Americans are too gullible, too uneducated, and too jingoistic to remain a free people. As another Nazi leader Herman Goering said, " The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. Tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peace-makers for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger."

This is precisely what the Bush and Obama regimes have done. America, as people of my generation knew it, no longer exists."

-excerpt, It's Official - The US Is A Police State
By Paul Craig Roberts

--rockpicker

wv= immen (immen, immen, I say unto you, unless we demand a thorough investigation into 9/11, we are through)

freeacre said...

Let us know, Belgium, how the protest is going in Brussels today..

Anonymous said...

Speaking of propaganda, and the use of language to manipulate the masses, here's another little insight into how we got here.

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/947.html

-rp

(what's happening in Brussels?)

Anonymous said...

And this, from "S. 510: 12 Reasons Why The Food Safety Bill From Hell Could Be Very Dangerous For The U.S. Economy",


"The following are 12 reasons why S. 510 could be absolutely disastrous for small food producers and for the U.S. economy....

#1 All food production facilities in the United States will be required to register with the U.S. government. No food will be allowed to be grown, distributed or sold outside this bureaucratic framework unless the FDA allows it.

#2 Any food that is distributed or sold outside of U.S. government control will be considered illegal smuggling.

#3 The FDA will hire an army of new inspectors to enforce all of the new provisions in the bill.

#4 The FDA will be mandated to conduct much more frequent inspections of food processing facilities.

#5 The fees and paperwork requirements will be ruinously expensive for small food producers and organic farms.

#6 S. 510 would place all U.S. food and all U.S. farms under the Department of Homeland Security in the event of a major "contamination" or an "emergency". What exactly would constitute a "contamination" or an "emergency" is anyone's guess.

#7 S. 510 mandates that the FDA facilitate harmonization of American food laws with Codex Alimentarius.

#8 S. 510 imposes an annual registration fee on any facility that holds, processes, or manufactures food. It also includes draconian fines for paperwork infractions of up to $500,000 for a single offense. Just one penalty like that would drive a small food producer out of business.

#9 S. 510 would give the FDA tremendous discretion to regulate how crops are grown and how food is produced in the United States. Basically, small farmers and organic farmers will now be forced to farm exactly how the federal government tells them to. It is feared that the U.S. government would soon declare that many organic farming methods are "unsafe" and would outlaw them. In addition, there is the very real possibility that at some point the U.S. government could decide that the only "safe" seed for a particular crop is genetically modified seed and would require all farmers to use it.

#10 S. 510 will give the FDA the power to impose a quarantine on a specific geographic area. Basically the FDA would have the power to stop the movement of all food in an area where a "contamination" has been identified. This would be very close to being able to declare martial law.

#11 S. 510 will give the FDA the power to conduct warrantless searches of the business records of small food producers and organic farmers, even if there has been no evidence at all that a law has been broken.

#12 Opponents of S. 510 believe that it would eliminate the right to clean and store seed. Therefore, control of the U.S. seed supply would be further centralized in the hands of Monsanto and other multinational corporations.

As mentioned above, this bill gives the FDA a ton of discretion. It is written very broadly and very vaguely. It opens the door for all kinds of abuses, but that doesn't mean that the FDA will behave unreasonably.

So should we trust the FDA?"

full article here:

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/s-510-12-reasons-why-the-food-safety-bill-from-hell-could-be-very-dangerous-for-the-u-s-economy

p.s. In answer to number six, insecticide manufactured by genetically modified corn has been detected in rivers and streams throughout the US cornbelt recently. BT corn plant debris is left on the fields to decompose and lessen soil erosion. But, as the corn fiber breaks down, our run-off streams become polluted. Will the food safety legislation address this 'contamination?'

-rp

freeacre said...

That's horrific. Just to allow the potential for abuse is beyond outrageous. They are gearing up to do the same thing with the water. It's already illegal to gather and store rainwater in, what, twelve states?

Whatever happened to "inalienable rights?" I guess the Founding Fathers never imagined that it would ever come to this.

Anonymous said...

Talking is...committing poetry in times of war

http://www.humanresonance.org/water.html

-rp

Anonymous said...

Oops. Wrong url there. Should have been this:

http://www.hulu.com/watch/122394/committing-poetry-in-times-of-war?c=News-and-Information/Documentary-and-Biography

Anonymous said...

And my friend says chemtrails don't exist...

http://agriculturedefensecoalition.org/?q=geoengineering

Solar Radiation Management?

-rp

Anonymous said...

http://www.floridaoilspilllaw.com/chsl-radio-cancels-show-kindra-very-ill-staph-infection-joannie-hospitalized-doctor-worried-about-neurotoxins-video

we may soon need to convene a war council

i come in from picking tomatillos and the world is on fire!!

-rp

M in Oregon said...

Enjoying the discussion, not much to add, but I was reminded by the health discussions from previous posts to look back through my emails for a link to a site that I downloaded some ebooks from a long while ago...

I don't know if you all have seen this, or someone has shared it here before, but it seems to be a wonderful, free resource... If you enjoy it, and can afford to, I would encourage donating.

The Soil and Health Library, founded by Steve Solomon In Tasmania...

http://soilandhealth.org/

They have a broad number of very useful and interesting (mostly old) books available for download.
This section of the home page kind of sums up their areas of specialization and interest:

"This website provides free e-books, mainly about holistic agriculture, holistic health and self-sufficient homestead living. There are secondary collections about social criticism and transformational psychology. No fees are collected for this service.

Upon special request the Soil and Health Library provides custom-made digital copies of a far wider range of books in the same subject areas for its patrons, delivered on CD-ROM by post. There is a small fee for this service.

The library's subject seemingly-diverse topic areas actually connect agricultural methods to the consequent health or illness of animals and humans, shows how to prevent and heal disease and increase longevity, suggests how to live a more fulfilling life and reveals social forces working against that possibility.



The Free Digitalized Library:

There are four major subject areas:

Radical Agriculture. The nutritional qualites of food and consequently the health of the animals and humans eating that food are determined by soil fertility. This section's interest is far wider than organic gardening and farming; other health-determined approaches to food-raising are also included. Go to the Agriculture Library

The Restoration and Maintenance of Health. Nutritional medicine heals disease, builds and maintains health with diet—and sometimes heals with fasting or other forms of dietary restriction. There are many approaches represented in this collection. There is also a collection concerning longevity and nutritional anthropology. A new medical reference library has been added to this collection. Go to the Health Library

Achieving Personal Sovereignty. Physical, mental, and spiritual health are linked to one's lifestyle. This collection focuses on liberating activities, especially homesteading and the skills it takes to do that—small-scale entrepreneuring, financial independence, frugality, and voluntary simplicity. There is also a collection of social criticism, especially from a back-to-the-land point of view. Go to the Personal Sovereignty Library

Achieving Spiritual Freedom. There are many seemingly-different self-betterment roads. The books in this collection seek to empower a person to effect their own development in an independent manner. Go to the Spiritual Freedom Library.

Additionally

Clippings and Miscellaneous. Since this library's beginning patrons have sent information and URLs where interesting bits of information and viewpoints could be found. Here you will find articles and essays and etc. that support and enhance the information found in our book collections. Go to the Clipping File.

Latest E-Books Added. Digitalized titles added to the online Soil and Health Library in the last few months, click here:"

I hope this link helps any who have not previously found it to work toward healthy bodies and soil, and all else that can be gained from this freely shared knowlege...

M on the coast of OR

wv: rotorsiv

M in Oregon said...

Enjoying the discussion, not much to add, but I was reminded by the health discussions from previous posts to look back through my emails for a link to a site that I downloaded some ebooks from a long while ago...

I don't know if you all have seen this, or someone has shared it here before, but it seems to be a wonderful, free resource... If you enjoy it, and can afford to, I would encourage donating.

The Soil and Health Library, founded by Steve Solomon In Tasmania...

http://soilandhealth.org/

They have a broad number of very useful and interesting (mostly old) books available for download.
This section of the home page kind of sums up their areas of specialization and interest:

"This website provides free e-books, mainly about holistic agriculture, holistic health and self-sufficient homestead living. There are secondary collections about social criticism and transformational psychology. No fees are collected for this service.

Upon special request the Soil and Health Library provides custom-made digital copies of a far wider range of books in the same subject areas for its patrons, delivered on CD-ROM by post. There is a small fee for this service.

The library's subject seemingly-diverse topic areas actually connect agricultural methods to the consequent health or illness of animals and humans, shows how to prevent and heal disease and increase longevity, suggests how to live a more fulfilling life and reveals social forces working against that possibility.



The Free Digitalized Library:

There are four major subject areas:

Radical Agriculture. The nutritional qualites of food and consequently the health of the animals and humans eating that food are determined by soil fertility. This section's interest is far wider than organic gardening and farming; other health-determined approaches to food-raising are also included. Go to the Agriculture Library

The Restoration and Maintenance of Health. Nutritional medicine heals disease, builds and maintains health with diet—and sometimes heals with fasting or other forms of dietary restriction. There are many approaches represented in this collection. There is also a collection concerning longevity and nutritional anthropology. A new medical reference library has been added to this collection. Go to the Health Library

Achieving Personal Sovereignty. Physical, mental, and spiritual health are linked to one's lifestyle. This collection focuses on liberating activities, especially homesteading and the skills it takes to do that—small-scale entrepreneuring, financial independence, frugality, and voluntary simplicity. There is also a collection of social criticism, especially from a back-to-the-land point of view. Go to the Personal Sovereignty Library

Achieving Spiritual Freedom. There are many seemingly-different self-betterment roads. The books in this collection seek to empower a person to effect their own development in an independent manner. Go to the Spiritual Freedom Library.

Additionally

Clippings and Miscellaneous. Since this library's beginning patrons have sent information and URLs where interesting bits of information and viewpoints could be found. Here you will find articles and essays and etc. that support and enhance the information found in our book collections. Go to the Clipping File.

Latest E-Books Added. Digitalized titles added to the online Soil and Health Library in the last few months, click here:"

I hope this link helps any who have not previously found it to work toward healthy bodies and soil, and all else that can be gained from this freely shared knowlege...

M on the coast of OR

wv: rotorsiv

M in Oregon said...

Enjoying the discussion, but not much to add that wouldn't be a rehash...

I was reminded by the health discussions from previous posts to look back through my emails for a site that I downloaded some ebooks from a long while ago...

I don't know if you all have seen this, or someone has shared it here before, but it seems to be a wonderful, free resource... If you enjoy it, and can afford to, I would encourage donating.

The Soil and Health Library, founded by Steve Solomon In Tasmania...

http://soilandhealth.org/

They have a broad number of very useful and interesting (mostly old, out of copyright) books available for download.
This section of the home page kind of sums up their areas of specialization and interest:

"This website provides free e-books, mainly about holistic agriculture, holistic health and self-sufficient homestead living. There are secondary collections about social criticism and transformational psychology. No fees are collected for this service.

Upon special request the Soil and Health Library provides custom-made digital copies of a far wider range of books in the same subject areas for its patrons, delivered on CD-ROM by post. There is a small fee for this service.

The library's subject seemingly-diverse topic areas actually connect agricultural methods to the consequent health or illness of animals and humans, shows how to prevent and heal disease and increase longevity, suggests how to live a more fulfilling life and reveals social forces working against that possibility.



The Free Digitalized Library:

There are four major subject areas:

Radical Agriculture. The nutritional qualites of food and consequently the health of the animals and humans eating that food are determined by soil fertility. This section's interest is far wider than organic gardening and farming; other health-determined approaches to food-raising are also included. Go to the Agriculture Library

The Restoration and Maintenance of Health. Nutritional medicine heals disease, builds and maintains health with diet—and sometimes heals with fasting or other forms of dietary restriction. There are many approaches represented in this collection. There is also a collection concerning longevity and nutritional anthropology. A new medical reference library has been added to this collection. Go to the Health Library

Achieving Personal Sovereignty. Physical, mental, and spiritual health are linked to one's lifestyle. This collection focuses on liberating activities, especially homesteading and the skills it takes to do that—small-scale entrepreneuring, financial independence, frugality, and voluntary simplicity. There is also a collection of social criticism, especially from a back-to-the-land point of view. Go to the Personal Sovereignty Library

Achieving Spiritual Freedom. There are many seemingly-different self-betterment roads. The books in this collection seek to empower a person to effect their own development in an independent manner. Go to the Spiritual Freedom Library.

Additionally

Clippings and Miscellaneous. Since this library's beginning patrons have sent information and URLs where interesting bits of information and viewpoints could be found. Here you will find articles and essays and etc. that support and enhance the information found in our book collections. Go to the Clipping File.

Latest E-Books Added. Digitalized titles added to the online Soil and Health Library in the last few months, click here:"

I hope this link helps any who have not previously found it to work toward healthy minds, bodies, and soil, and all else that can be gained from this freely and generously shared knowlege...

M on the coast of OR

wv: rotorsiv

M in Oregon said...

Enjoying the discussion, but not much to add that wouldn't be a rehash...

I was reminded by the health discussions from previous posts to look back through my emails for a site that I downloaded some ebooks from a long while ago...

I don't know if you all have seen this, or someone has shared it here before, but it seems to be a wonderful, free resource... If you enjoy it, and can afford to, I would encourage donating.

The Soil and Health Library, founded by Steve Solomon In Tasmania...

http://soilandhealth.org/

They have a broad number of very useful and interesting (mostly old, out of copyright) books available for download.
This section of the home page kind of sums up their areas of specialization and interest:

"This website provides free e-books, mainly about holistic agriculture, holistic health and self-sufficient homestead living. There are secondary collections about social criticism and transformational psychology. No fees are collected for this service.

Upon special request the Soil and Health Library provides custom-made digital copies of a far wider range of books in the same subject areas for its patrons, delivered on CD-ROM by post. There is a small fee for this service.

The library's subject seemingly-diverse topic areas actually connect agricultural methods to the consequent health or illness of animals and humans, shows how to prevent and heal disease and increase longevity, suggests how to live a more fulfilling life and reveals social forces working against that possibility.



The Free Digitalized Library:

There are four major subject areas:

Radical Agriculture. The nutritional qualites of food and consequently the health of the animals and humans eating that food are determined by soil fertility. This section's interest is far wider than organic gardening and farming; other health-determined approaches to food-raising are also included. Go to the Agriculture Library

The Restoration and Maintenance of Health. Nutritional medicine heals disease, builds and maintains health with diet—and sometimes heals with fasting or other forms of dietary restriction. There are many approaches represented in this collection. There is also a collection concerning longevity and nutritional anthropology. A new medical reference library has been added to this collection. Go to the Health Library

Achieving Personal Sovereignty. Physical, mental, and spiritual health are linked to one's lifestyle. This collection focuses on liberating activities, especially homesteading and the skills it takes to do that—small-scale entrepreneuring, financial independence, frugality, and voluntary simplicity. There is also a collection of social criticism, especially from a back-to-the-land point of view. Go to the Personal Sovereignty Library

Achieving Spiritual Freedom. There are many seemingly-different self-betterment roads. The books in this collection seek to empower a person to effect their own development in an independent manner. Go to the Spiritual Freedom Library.

Additionally

Clippings and Miscellaneous. Since this library's beginning patrons have sent information and URLs where interesting bits of information and viewpoints could be found. Here you will find articles and essays and etc. that support and enhance the information found in our book collections. Go to the Clipping File.

Latest E-Books Added. Digitalized titles added to the online Soil and Health Library in the last few months, click here:"

I hope this link helps any who have not previously found it to work toward healthy minds, bodies, and soil, and all else that can be gained from this freely and generously shared knowlege...

M on the coast of OR

wv: rotorsiv

M in Oregon said...

Enjoying the discussion, but not much to add that wouldn't be a rehash...

I was reminded by the health discussions from previous posts to look back through my emails for a site that I downloaded some ebooks from a long while ago...

I don't know if you all have seen this, or someone has shared it here before, but it seems to be a wonderful, free resource... If you enjoy it, and can afford to, I would encourage donating.

The Soil and Health Library, founded by Steve Solomon In Tasmania...

http://soilandhealth.org/

They have a broad number of very useful and interesting (mostly old, out of copyright) books available for download.
This section of the home page kind of sums up their areas of specialization and interest:

"This website provides free e-books, mainly about holistic agriculture, holistic health and self-sufficient homestead living. There are secondary collections about social criticism and transformational psychology. No fees are collected for this service.

Upon special request the Soil and Health Library provides custom-made digital copies of a far wider range of books in the same subject areas for its patrons, delivered on CD-ROM by post. There is a small fee for this service.

The library's subject seemingly-diverse topic areas actually connect agricultural methods to the consequent health or illness of animals and humans, shows how to prevent and heal disease and increase longevity, suggests how to live a more fulfilling life and reveals social forces working against that possibility.



The Free Digitalized Library:

There are four major subject areas:

Radical Agriculture. The nutritional qualites of food and consequently the health of the animals and humans eating that food are determined by soil fertility. This section's interest is far wider than organic gardening and farming; other health-determined approaches to food-raising are also included. Go to the Agriculture Library

The Restoration and Maintenance of Health. Nutritional medicine heals disease, builds and maintains health with diet—and sometimes heals with fasting or other forms of dietary restriction. There are many approaches represented in this collection. There is also a collection concerning longevity and nutritional anthropology. A new medical reference library has been added to this collection. Go to the Health Library

Achieving Personal Sovereignty. Physical, mental, and spiritual health are linked to one's lifestyle. This collection focuses on liberating activities, especially homesteading and the skills it takes to do that—small-scale entrepreneuring, financial independence, frugality, and voluntary simplicity. There is also a collection of social criticism, especially from a back-to-the-land point of view. Go to the Personal Sovereignty Library

Achieving Spiritual Freedom. There are many seemingly-different self-betterment roads. The books in this collection seek to empower a person to effect their own development in an independent manner. Go to the Spiritual Freedom Library.

Additionally

Clippings and Miscellaneous. Since this library's beginning patrons have sent information and URLs where interesting bits of information and viewpoints could be found. Here you will find articles and essays and etc. that support and enhance the information found in our book collections. Go to the Clipping File.

Latest E-Books Added. Digitalized titles added to the online Soil and Health Library in the last few months, click here:"

I hope this link helps any who have not previously found it to work toward healthy minds, bodies, and soil, and all else that can be gained from this freely and generously shared knowlege...

M on the coast of OR

wv: rotorsiv

M in Oregon said...

Enjoying the discussion, but not much to add that wouldn't be a rehash...

I was reminded by the health discussions from previous posts to look back through my emails for a site that I downloaded some ebooks from a long while ago...

I don't know if you all have seen this, or someone has shared it here before, but it seems to be a wonderful, free resource... If you enjoy it, and can afford to, I would encourage donating.

The Soil and Health Library, founded by Steve Solomon In Tasmania...

http://soilandhealth.org/

They have a broad number of very useful and interesting (mostly old, out of copyright) books available for download.
This section of the home page kind of sums up their areas of specialization and interest:

"This website provides free e-books, mainly about holistic agriculture, holistic health and self-sufficient homestead living. There are secondary collections about social criticism and transformational psychology. No fees are collected for this service.

Upon special request the Soil and Health Library provides custom-made digital copies of a far wider range of books in the same subject areas for its patrons, delivered on CD-ROM by post. There is a small fee for this service.

The library's subject seemingly-diverse topic areas actually connect agricultural methods to the consequent health or illness of animals and humans, shows how to prevent and heal disease and increase longevity, suggests how to live a more fulfilling life and reveals social forces working against that possibility.



The Free Digitalized Library:

There are four major subject areas:

Radical Agriculture. The nutritional qualites of food and consequently the health of the animals and humans eating that food are determined by soil fertility. This section's interest is far wider than organic gardening and farming; other health-determined approaches to food-raising are also included. Go to the Agriculture Library

The Restoration and Maintenance of Health. Nutritional medicine heals disease, builds and maintains health with diet—and sometimes heals with fasting or other forms of dietary restriction. There are many approaches represented in this collection. There is also a collection concerning longevity and nutritional anthropology. A new medical reference library has been added to this collection. Go to the Health Library

Achieving Personal Sovereignty. Physical, mental, and spiritual health are linked to one's lifestyle. This collection focuses on liberating activities, especially homesteading and the skills it takes to do that—small-scale entrepreneuring, financial independence, frugality, and voluntary simplicity. There is also a collection of social criticism, especially from a back-to-the-land point of view. Go to the Personal Sovereignty Library

Achieving Spiritual Freedom. There are many seemingly-different self-betterment roads. The books in this collection seek to empower a person to effect their own development in an independent manner. Go to the Spiritual Freedom Library.

Additionally

Clippings and Miscellaneous. Since this library's beginning patrons have sent information and URLs where interesting bits of information and viewpoints could be found. Here you will find articles and essays and etc. that support and enhance the information found in our book collections. Go to the Clipping File.

Latest E-Books Added. Digitalized titles added to the online Soil and Health Library in the last few months, click here:"

I hope this link helps any who have not previously found it to work toward healthy minds, bodies, and soil, and all else that can be gained from this freely and generously shared knowlege...

M on the coast of OR

wv: sporkest
award given at the spork-fest?

M in Oregon said...

Enjoying the discussion, but not much to add that wouldn't be a rehash...

I was reminded by the health discussions from previous posts to look back through my emails for a site that I downloaded some ebooks from a long while ago...

I don't know if you all have seen this, or someone has shared it here before, but it seems to be a wonderful, free resource... If you enjoy it, and can afford to, I would encourage donating.

The Soil and Health Library, founded by Steve Solomon In Tasmania...

http://soilandhealth.org/

They have a broad number of very useful and interesting (mostly old, out of copyright) books available for download.
This section of the home page kind of sums up their areas of specialization and interest:

"This website provides free e-books, mainly about holistic agriculture, holistic health and self-sufficient homestead living. There are secondary collections about social criticism and transformational psychology. No fees are collected for this service.

Upon special request the Soil and Health Library provides custom-made digital copies of a far wider range of books in the same subject areas for its patrons, delivered on CD-ROM by post. There is a small fee for this service.

The library's subject seemingly-diverse topic areas actually connect agricultural methods to the consequent health or illness of animals and humans, shows how to prevent and heal disease and increase longevity, suggests how to live a more fulfilling life and reveals social forces working against that possibility.



The Free Digitalized Library:

There are four major subject areas:

Radical Agriculture. The nutritional qualites of food and consequently the health of the animals and humans eating that food are determined by soil fertility. This section's interest is far wider than organic gardening and farming; other health-determined approaches to food-raising are also included. Go to the Agriculture Library

The Restoration and Maintenance of Health. Nutritional medicine heals disease, builds and maintains health with diet—and sometimes heals with fasting or other forms of dietary restriction. There are many approaches represented in this collection. There is also a collection concerning longevity and nutritional anthropology. A new medical reference library has been added to this collection. Go to the Health Library

Achieving Personal Sovereignty. Physical, mental, and spiritual health are linked to one's lifestyle. This collection focuses on liberating activities, especially homesteading and the skills it takes to do that—small-scale entrepreneuring, financial independence, frugality, and voluntary simplicity. There is also a collection of social criticism, especially from a back-to-the-land point of view. Go to the Personal Sovereignty Library

Achieving Spiritual Freedom. There are many seemingly-different self-betterment roads. The books in this collection seek to empower a person to effect their own development in an independent manner. Go to the Spiritual Freedom Library.

Additionally

Clippings and Miscellaneous. Since this library's beginning patrons have sent information and URLs where interesting bits of information and viewpoints could be found. Here you will find articles and essays and etc. that support and enhance the information found in our book collections. Go to the Clipping File.

Latest E-Books Added. Digitalized titles added to the online Soil and Health Library in the last few months, click here:"

I hope this link helps any who have not previously found it to work toward healthy minds, bodies, and soil, and all else that can be gained from this freely and generously shared knowlege...

M on the coast of OR

wv: sporkest

M in Oregon said...

Enjoying the discussion, but not much to add that wouldn't be a rehash...

I was reminded by the health discussions from previous posts to look back through my emails for a site that I downloaded some ebooks from a long while ago...

I don't know if you all have seen this, or someone has shared it here before, but it seems to be a wonderful, free resource... If you enjoy it, and can afford to, I would encourage donating.

I hope this link helps any who have not previously found it to work toward healthy minds, bodies, and soil, and all else that can be gained from this freely and generously shared knowlege...

M on the coast of OR

wv: rotorsiv

M in Oregon said...

Had to split it up...

Here's the link, and a description of the library's contents from the home page:

http://soilandhealth.org/

They have a broad number of very useful and interesting (mostly old, out of copyright) books available for download.
This section of the home page kind of sums up their areas of specialization and interest:

"This website provides free e-books, mainly about holistic agriculture, holistic health and self-sufficient homestead living. There are secondary collections about social criticism and transformational psychology. No fees are collected for this service.

Upon special request the Soil and Health Library provides custom-made digital copies of a far wider range of books in the same subject areas for its patrons, delivered on CD-ROM by post. There is a small fee for this service.

The library's subject seemingly-diverse topic areas actually connect agricultural methods to the consequent health or illness of animals and humans, shows how to prevent and heal disease and increase longevity, suggests how to live a more fulfilling life and reveals social forces working against that possibility.



The Free Digitalized Library:

There are four major subject areas:

Radical Agriculture. The nutritional qualites of food and consequently the health of the animals and humans eating that food are determined by soil fertility. This section's interest is far wider than organic gardening and farming; other health-determined approaches to food-raising are also included. Go to the Agriculture Library

The Restoration and Maintenance of Health. Nutritional medicine heals disease, builds and maintains health with diet—and sometimes heals with fasting or other forms of dietary restriction. There are many approaches represented in this collection. There is also a collection concerning longevity and nutritional anthropology. A new medical reference library has been added to this collection. Go to the Health Library

Achieving Personal Sovereignty. Physical, mental, and spiritual health are linked to one's lifestyle. This collection focuses on liberating activities, especially homesteading and the skills it takes to do that—small-scale entrepreneuring, financial independence, frugality, and voluntary simplicity. There is also a collection of social criticism, especially from a back-to-the-land point of view. Go to the Personal Sovereignty Library

Achieving Spiritual Freedom. There are many seemingly-different self-betterment roads. The books in this collection seek to empower a person to effect their own development in an independent manner. Go to the Spiritual Freedom Library.

Additionally

Clippings and Miscellaneous. Since this library's beginning patrons have sent information and URLs where interesting bits of information and viewpoints could be found. Here you will find articles and essays and etc. that support and enhance the information found in our book collections. Go to the Clipping File.

Latest E-Books Added. Digitalized titles added to the online Soil and Health Library in the last few months, click here:"

M in Oregon said...

www.soilandhealth.org

They have a broad number of very useful and interesting (mostly old, out of copyright) books available for download.
This section of the home page kind of sums up their areas of specialization and interest:

"This website provides free e-books, mainly about holistic agriculture, holistic health and self-sufficient homestead living. There are secondary collections about social criticism and transformational psychology. No fees are collected for this service.

Upon special request the Soil and Health Library provides custom-made digital copies of a far wider range of books in the same subject areas for its patrons, delivered on CD-ROM by post. There is a small fee for this service.

The library's subject seemingly-diverse topic areas actually connect agricultural methods to the consequent health or illness of animals and humans, shows how to prevent and heal disease and increase longevity, suggests how to live a more fulfilling life and reveals social forces working against that possibility.



The Free Digitalized Library:

There are four major subject areas:

Radical Agriculture. The nutritional qualites of food and consequently the health of the animals and humans eating that food are determined by soil fertility. This section's interest is far wider than organic gardening and farming; other health-determined approaches to food-raising are also included. Go to the Agriculture Library

The Restoration and Maintenance of Health. Nutritional medicine heals disease, builds and maintains health with diet—and sometimes heals with fasting or other forms of dietary restriction. There are many approaches represented in this collection. There is also a collection concerning longevity and nutritional anthropology. A new medical reference library has been added to this collection. Go to the Health Library

Achieving Personal Sovereignty. Physical, mental, and spiritual health are linked to one's lifestyle. This collection focuses on liberating activities, especially homesteading and the skills it takes to do that—small-scale entrepreneuring, financial independence, frugality, and voluntary simplicity. There is also a collection of social criticism, especially from a back-to-the-land point of view. Go to the Personal Sovereignty Library

Achieving Spiritual Freedom. There are many seemingly-different self-betterment roads. The books in this collection seek to empower a person to effect their own development in an independent manner. Go to the Spiritual Freedom Library.

Additionally

Clippings and Miscellaneous. Since this library's beginning patrons have sent information and URLs where interesting bits of information and viewpoints could be found. Here you will find articles and essays and etc. that support and enhance the information found in our book collections. Go to the Clipping File.

Latest E-Books Added. Digitalized titles added to the online Soil and Health Library in the last few months, click here:"

M in Oregon said...

and the rest that wouldn't fit, with the link:

www.soilandhealth.org

They have a broad number of very useful and interesting (mostly old, out of copyright) books available for download.
This section of the home page kind of sums up their areas of specialization and interest:

"This website provides free e-books, mainly about holistic agriculture, holistic health and self-sufficient homestead living. There are secondary collections about social criticism and transformational psychology. No fees are collected for this service.

Upon special request the Soil and Health Library provides custom-made digital copies of a far wider range of books in the same subject areas for its patrons, delivered on CD-ROM by post. There is a small fee for this service.

The library's subject seemingly-diverse topic areas actually connect agricultural methods to the consequent health or illness of animals and humans, shows how to prevent and heal disease and increase longevity, suggests how to live a more fulfilling life and reveals social forces working against that possibility.



The Free Digitalized Library:

There are four major subject areas:

Radical Agriculture. The nutritional qualites of food and consequently the health of the animals and humans eating that food are determined by soil fertility. This section's interest is far wider than organic gardening and farming; other health-determined approaches to food-raising are also included. Go to the Agriculture Library

The Restoration and Maintenance of Health. Nutritional medicine heals disease, builds and maintains health with diet—and sometimes heals with fasting or other forms of dietary restriction. There are many approaches represented in this collection. There is also a collection concerning longevity and nutritional anthropology. A new medical reference library has been added to this collection. Go to the Health Library

Achieving Personal Sovereignty. Physical, mental, and spiritual health are linked to one's lifestyle. This collection focuses on liberating activities, especially homesteading and the skills it takes to do that—small-scale entrepreneuring, financial independence, frugality, and voluntary simplicity. There is also a collection of social criticism, especially from a back-to-the-land point of view. Go to the Personal Sovereignty Library

Achieving Spiritual Freedom. There are many seemingly-different self-betterment roads. The books in this collection seek to empower a person to effect their own development in an independent manner. Go to the Spiritual Freedom Library.

Additionally

Clippings and Miscellaneous. Since this library's beginning patrons have sent information and URLs where interesting bits of information and viewpoints could be found. Here you will find articles and essays and etc. that support and enhance the information found in our book collections. Go to the Clipping File.

Latest E-Books Added. Digitalized titles added to the online Soil and Health Library in the last few months, click here:"

wv: sudglint
time to go have a beer and ponder?
maybe this evening.

Anonymous said...

M; Don't ya just hate it when that happens?

-rp

Hotspringswizard said...

http://neithercorp.us/npress/?p=812

Economic Collapse Update: Acceleration In Autumn

Alot of good points in this article, and in some of the comments too.

I however disgree completely with the tail end of the comment by Giordano on 10-1 at 5:23 where he says Peak Oil is a scam. He states this " Wells dry up, sure, but new wells form in other parts of the world ".

The truth is discoveries of new reserves in the world have been declining since around 1965. More oil has been produced yearly since then because we developed the technology to pull it out faster from mostly the existing large oil fields ( elephants fields ) already discovered quite a long time ago.

Does this guy think that the oil companies are now spending countless billions drilling offshore and chomping at the bit to spend trillions more in the arctic as the ice melts and the ice cap shrinks because new oil fields are popping up out of the blue in all the convenient places that they used to get it?

Amazing that this is the guy who wrote this article. It makes me wonder just how he will be asigning blame, looking for scapegoat excuses as we fall off of peak in the next few years and things get real ugly regarding world supply of oil.

I think the article itself is still worth a read though.

Pangolin said...

Honestly, I'm such a poor listener I sometimes wonder if I'm autistic. This is as good as it gets for me; a text board. Here I can read everybody's posts and comments and skip the confusing fluff of body language and facial expression that I just don't get without several months of close contact with somebody.

I think that our culture places so much emphasis on individuals in competition that we actually destroy the prize. It's like placing a blueberry pie in front of a group of five year olds and telling them to go for it. Very little of the pie actually makes it's way into actual mouths.

Hell, I don't know. I can't follow what people are saying. I have to watch what actually happens. Somebody took most of the damn pie and then hit the near empty pie tin with a sledgehammer to cover his tracks. They're talking a good line in D.C. but they teeth are blue; GOP and DEM both.

freeacre said...

Pangolin,
Ha! "Blue teeth." That's a good visual! I can just see Nancy Pelosi and John Boner, uh, Bohner, and Reid, and all of 'em with blue teeth and blue guk all over their faces.
Speaking of communication running amok, I am very saddened over that kid that jumped to his death after being videotaped in his dorm room with running video of a gay sex encounter. It just breaks my heart. I worked with so many unhappy kids over the years when I was a psychiatric child care worker. But the only kids that I know that I lost were gay kids who killed themselves. This outrageous cruelty has been going on for years and years, and just seems to be getting worse, despite the acceptance in some circles. It is just too sad.

Anonymous said...

murph, thanks for calling attention to the topic of communication, or what we commonly call attempts to understand what another is saying,feeling, for whatever reason.

this is to this one so important that it borders on lunacy.

the breakdown seems to occur at a point before a word even leaves the mouth it seems and what is left is a shambles of misunderstanding.
folks this is serious business,for without the ability to transfer information from one to another we are simply loss to the ravages of what is happing right now.
the world at this point unless i am missing some larger divine plan in which jesus or some other fucked up illusion is just waiting for the right moment to jump in and save our worthless asses...

well anyway to the meat of the topic is this i think.
what we have now is for all practical purposes a serious, joke, so what is a mother fucker to do?
about it?
to uncover the reasons or reason for this more or less useless attempt to find refuge in sharing something that cannot be shared is to me important because the way it is now gives me a fucking headache.
ok,so does this make sense?
at the bottom of the mind or what appears to be the bottom of the mind/body is a set of signals derived from an organic source and it is the manifestation of something unseeable yet responsible for all that is.
it is that place where nothing becomes something, now maybe and this is a big maybe two people can see this place at the same time there will/might be complete understanding.
it is beyond and maybe below that which we are accustom to being able to bear witness to.
it is a place where the thinking mind shuts the fuck up and just listens and waits, and waits, and waits. for what? see what i mean? the thinking mind cannot even conceive this tiny amount of silence in which awaits that which is un-manifest.
it is this which the two-leggeds if they wish to survive will learn of because the uselessness of what is is only convenient as a means of caveman utterances, it has not much, if any of the evolution of
humankind.

other part below

Anonymous said...

other part

you know brothers and sisters, i am not an educated person and what i put on the table is straight from the heart.
i bear the same scars as all of you from the trauma of simply being born into a societal system which honors and rewards that which brings death and worse to those that are not quite as capable of living the great illusion of ''its our right to stick out nose as deep in the trough as possible'' so as to maintain that sense of self-worth which the christians play lip service to.
weather we like it or not we are walking talking christians.
hell its even on the nasty shit we exchange and kill for, money.
the so called values and all the other horse shit that is suppose to pass for behavior is just that, pure horse shit, and like it or not it is us.
this is not fancy,this is true, i mean everyone that comes through this abomination called america is completely and thoroughly immersed in it.
we are good little robots and we will not stray far from the path or jesus will throw your ass in jail,maybe not jesus personally but one of his little helper pigs, and on and on it goes,
the system is the very essence of that which would be called evil in a heart felt person, of which there are not nearly enough at this point but are gaining all the time i see as cyber flow unwinds.

anyway enough of this, somehow no matter what the topic i always seem to degrade into a rant and rave about the fucked up mess we live in.
if jumping off a bridge would help the situation i would jump but beings a coward and also knowing that it would not help a goddam thing i think the next best thing is to just hang out with the good folks that come to this sacred place to exchange thoughts about stuff.
i appreciate and applaud all that attend here and wish nothing but the best for all of you, whom for some reason or another have put us together to learn to survive what is ahead.
like my friend said yesterday,
''we are who we have been waiting for''
aho
mf
wv prolize ?

Zoner said...

Well said, mf.

Z

murph said...

Mf,

You are right, what is the point if there is no understanding? Let me offer this. There are levels of communication. At its basic and most unthoughtful, we have what is called "past timing". It is just social mutterings that keep channels open. It has conventions all of its own. It serves a purpose in human interaction. Remember, in Avitar movie the standard greeting was, "I see you",ie I recognize the essence of you, I acknowledge that you exist. Normally, we humans do not have that heavy a greeting with each other but we do tend to acknowledge each others existence by these social "past timing".

At a deeper level, we try and pass information to each other and this is where we have problems and it shows up pretty vividly when we attempt to communicate abstract ideas. Just what is meant when we say "I love you" or "I think that guy is shit".

Within the concrete world, we have pretty generalized shared ideas about what a lake is, an ocean, a tree, a car. It's when we get into the very specifics of what kind of lake, the fish in it, what kind of tree, how it feels to you and kind of wood it has and the type of car and how safe it is, how fast it will go, etc that we will get mixed up communication unless we go into a great amount of detail.

What I was trying to emphasize was that as we spend time attempting to communicate with someone, over time these kinds of details and understanding improves so that when "I love you" comes along, we have a pretty good idea of what that means to that person.

Therefore, attempts at communication aren't a waste of time. Our expected outcome of this attempt may be unrealistic also. You don't say to a fundamentalist Christian that you have just met that Christianity is a very evil system. Further attempts at communication are then a waste of time regardless of the subject matter.

And yes, two people may very well communicate at some level that does not involve the symbols of speech. I think it is probably rather rare.

I also agree that we are in the end, a product of our society/environment. Recognizing that and changing the internal values to something more reasonable, more useful I think is a good thing. That is why I say that an individual should periodically drag out his most cherished beliefs and examine them again to see how they work, and if there is a question about that, change them. Often easier said than done.

Hotspringswizard said...

I think this commenter over at the Kunstler site makes some very good points regarding the reality of disappearing jobs as a definitive trend for all our futures:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2010/10/posting-a-little-late-this-morning.html#more

eightm | October 4, 2010 2:25 PM | Reply
Another AX: WORK

freeacre said...

I dunno... lately, we've been watching a lot of PBS travel shows and stuff while I'm in the kitchen making dinner or while waiting for the BBC News and stuff. Anyway, I keep seeing castle after castle in all these ruins along rivers in Europe and Eastern Europe. Along the Rhine, for instance, there's a castle about every 6 miles, and there used to be toll bridges at those castles, and every merchant ship that was trying to bring merchandise into the cities had to pay a toll at each bridge. And, if they didn't want to pay, well, the Duke or Prince or whatever would have his thugs fuck them up, I imagine.
Anyway, the point here is that hierarchy and thievery and injustice and lack of freedom has been going on pretty much forever. China's history is no picnic either. Nor Persia, Africa, or South America.
What keeps us going? I'd say it's what has not made it into the history books or is not written in stone. It's that vast unwritten history that is felt.. those memories that we have even if we are not aware of them. The hopes and dreams of those who came before, the loving touches, the beauty of the sunrises and the sunsets, the interaction between us and the animals and the earth... all those things that make life worth living, and this planet worth coming back to.
It's that place inside where

"...at the bottom of the mind or what appears to be the bottom of the mind/body is a set of signals derived from an organic source and it is the manifestation of something unseeable yet responsible for all that is.
it is that place where nothing becomes something, .."

I like to think that getting a better handle on that part is what us motherfuckers are supposed to do.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium

Read the post but not yet the comments, the subject of which is right up my street and well put together Murph. At the moment I am three posts behind on the catching up stakes and desperately wanted to come in at that point but it didn’t happen and the occasion is now past. The problem is that being a helpful sort of chappie, I have spent so much time helping others who have asked for it and not doing the things that I want to, I feel that if I carry on for much longer I will be letting myself down. Anyway, that is enough of the self indulgent whinging; let me see if I can pick some feelings out of this one. When Murph mentioned some of the old regulars, I had to stop and question if I still fitted into that category, well half of it at least. Some of the very old timers may remember a post I did an age ago called “Spin, Disinformation, The Weaponisation of information and the Double Game” which gave a different aspect on much of what Murph is talking about here.

Here are some initial thoughts and giving silly examples to make serious points without getting too involved in the whys and wherefores of what mister Aristotle had to say. Most of us would agree from experience with the statement of “All cows eat grass”. We would not agree with the reverse that “All grass eaters are cows” since if we have seen sheep eating grass this proves the statement wrong. But then you might get a gushing talking head on the TV who might say “To all you grass eaters out there my frying pan is getting ready for the rump steak.” Hang on, did he just associate all grass eaters with rump steak? And that is one way disinformation is just slid through. The more times it is repeated the more established it becomes. Some of you may have seen a spliced video clip lasting several minutes of Bush, Cheney, Rummy and a couple of others from the time just saying the words Terrorist; Terror or Terrorism. The more it is repeated, the more established it becomes and the more established it becomes the truer it is, at least in most peoples minds.

Sometimes it is not that clear cut. Someone in an interview or debate may make the statement “Honesty is the best policy” another may say “The best policy is honesty” and in an instant, during the flow of the conversation you have to decide if you are being spun or not. Is it the same thing or is it different? Are there shades of grey and where are they if they exist?

Anonymous said...

FB pt 2

I have mentioned before that some years ago I visited a web site dealing with word definitions and the simplification of the language. This person took say eight or ten ordinary everyday words and looked up the definitions in a series of dictionaries published at roughly ten year intervals and noted what wasn’t included from edition to edition. He concluded that there was a long term policy afoot to dumb down the language. But if that is true, how can it possibly fit in with our age of reason and enlightenment? Surely the more things we find out the clearer it all becomes like fitting pieces into a jig saw puzzle.

It seems to me that when society was simpler say village life of 100 – 150 years ago people had personal experience of most conversational subjects and so the meaning was clear. Today, people are required to have a little knowledge (acquaintance with) many things and because this experience, which is mainly second hand, is shallow they are easily fooled. For instance if we read an article by Tom Beardon we are then expected to be up to speed on the workings of anti gravity devices. Or it may be the electronic universe, disappearing species; energy and resource crises, UFO’s: high finance or some aspect of art and the list goes on. Because we have limited knowledge of many more things it is easy to pull the wool over our eyes and truly the more we learn, the less we know. What then is the correct balance between depth and breadth of knowledge? Or is in fact knowledge the right thing to strive for? The Native American Chief, White Cloud had the right of it in his Circle of Life which starts off so:” Man has a poor understanding of life, he mistakes knowledge for wisdom…”

The singer Billy Bragg from his album England, Half English ends one of his songs as follows:

Put all the history books in the corner
But don’t throw them away
For one day we may discover
How Anglo hyphen Saxon
Became England dot co dot UK.

Anonymous said...

Look at this, folks. Clif High has some choice things to say about a bill that has been introduced by John McCain and is now in committee. He seems to be pretty upset.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s111-3081

http://www.halfpasthuman.com/deathcampusa.html

'Enemy belligerent' sounds pretty scary, 'til you realize they're talking about anybody who criticizes the government, on any level.

Hey, Belgium. Nice to read your words again.

-rp

murph said...

Hey Belgium,

Only 3 posts behind? lol I am often amazed when I go to a website I haven't been to for a while and have to spend an hour or more getting caught up if I am interested enough. It's the consequence of forced personal limitation of time spent on the computer so I can try and get something else done.

As for the "old regulars" I am referring to those that somehow retain enough interest to keep in the conversation over years.

In part two above, you mention an age of reason and enlightenment. Is that really a good description of our societies today? I'd have to agree the author you mentioned that the populations are being dumbed down. For the most part, it seems to me that language is very much being dumbed down too. When I read journals, speeches and publications from 100 years ago, I see a vast difference in the vocabularies and construction used and is considered archaic today. I'm not being nostalgic about it, I just see a big difference. When I read the translations of the Greek philosophers I see much more complicated thought lines, which means using vocabulary that has multiple and extensive conceptions embedded in them. Good or bad? But when I listen to a moron like G. Bush II and the almost exclusive use of 5th grade vocabulary,--- what can I say?

"Today, people are required to have a little knowledge (acquaintance with) many things and because this experience, which is mainly second hand, is shallow they are easily fooled." I can sure agree with that. To be versed in many areas of information takes time and perseverance. Takes too much time away from sports and TV I reckon.

One of the problems I see is that information has gone up exponentially in the last 50 years or so and it flat out is impossible to keep up with it all, even in a single area of specialization. In education, it is equally important to talk about what is excluded from the learning as what is included. Sure does create a lot of controversy.

I've always been curious about the concept of wisdom. I find the dictionary on that word doesn't help much. Abstract concepts defined with more abstracts become circular arguments Bah! Humbug

Zoner said...

RE; a dumbing down. I just had a book by Ralph Waldo Emerson arrive in the house. Talk about a different use of language! Every sentence is like a song, and frequently a repeat is needed just t o let it sink in.

And we think we have advanced so far, with all our "tech" and modern flashy BS. The issues before us have indeed been present since we 2-leggeds have risen from our slimy places. Yet we are still here confronting the challenge.

Must be something here worth experiencing.......

Go Twins!

Humpf.

Z