Wednesday, April 29, 2009

Welcome to the Bottleneck

From the homefront - We call this "Brie TV." Since our dog falls in love with them every year and can't stop looking at them, Murph built a box for the chicks with a plexiglass wall so Brie can look at them easily.

New chicks staying warm. This year we added 5 Dominiques, an Arracouna, and another Bard Rock. Brie, of course, considers them hers.

First European mesclun mix greens from the greenhouse for a Waldorf salad. Added apples, raisins, and walnuts.

Chicken vegetable soup.... what's better for flu season?

Gotta have some bread to go with the soup. This is a whole wheat Challah loaf.

And now, a post from ras... thanks, ras!!

Welcome to the Bottleneck

By ras

Bottleneck: the narrowest portion of a bottle, through which only a small portion of the contents can pass at a time. Or, an evolutionary event(s) in which the population of a species is significantly reduced. This Wikipedia page contains an excellent description of this latter definition of ‘bottleneck’:

So, why am I going to discuss bottlenecks? (The latter kind, of course.) Can you possibly imagine a more depressing topic? (Well, yes, but let’s not go there right now.) I decided on this topic because it is very important right now, as we have entered the human bottleneck. No more is it looming on the horizon, much less so distant it is our grandchildren’s problem. No, the bottleneck is here. Now. Today. We have entered the bottleneck. It will take several generations for us to work through it, but here we are.

We can not say we were not warned. Since the 1970s –well before I was born, by the way, and I am old enough now to have children in kindergarten –we have been warned by increasingly strident scientists and others with their heads out of the sand that we could not go on wantonly consuming resources and reproducing like rabbits. Eventually, we were warned, our resources would start to deplete and we would run out or hit a wall. Everything from paper to petroleum would be in increasingly short supply. The increasing world population would only exacerbate the problem.

Numerous people have warned about the population problem, or bomb, as the Ehrlichs put it. All of them have been ridiculed. No matter how many people we have, the argument goes, it won’t be a problem. We can put them somewhere and more people means more innovation, more creativity, etc. These arguments are patent nonsense of course, but the people who made them have succeeded in marginalizing anyone who speaks openly about the dangers of population growth. Not only that, but mention overpopulation and many people will immediately scream that you are a racist, or a sexist, or eugenicist, or all of the above.

The reality is that we live on a finite planet with limited resources that are all ready under strain. The best estimates of the long-term carrying capacity of the planet range from 1-3 billion people. How many people are currently in the world? Um, 7.5 billion. This means that, under the most optimistic scenario, we currently have MORE THAN TWO AND A HALF TIMES as many people as the world can sustainably support. To make matters worse, the overconsumption of natural resources is steadily degrading the long-term carrying capacity of the planet.

Insert the ‘oh shit’ moment here. Quite clearly, we are in trouble. The world’s population is going to have to go down by at least half. Probably more. We will almost certainly undershoot the carrying capacity –that is how these things tend to work. It’s like an oscillating spring. Up, then down, then up and down again before stabilization is reached. There is no longer any question that this will happen. We have overshot our carrying capacity to the point were a correction is inevitable. The only question now is how it will happen. There are several different ways. The first, and the one I’m certain everyone would prefer, is a gradual, humane way. This path involves a gradual stabilization of the human population over several generations, followed by an equally gradual reduction. It’s the best possible way, and the one the UN is targeting. It also has less than a snowball’s chance in hell of working. Why? Remember that we are all ready well into resource depletion. We do not have the resources to support the current population for the rest of their lives much less several generations.

What about the other methods? All of them are much less nice, and they all involve the familiar four horsemen of the apocalypse: Famine, Plague, Pestilence, and War. We can throw in the collapse of a civilization or two, as resource depletion will certainly take down many modern ways of life. I am not talking about a sudden die-off of humanity. Well, it will be sudden in nature’s terms, but not in human terms. We humans have a hard time thinking on Mother Nature’s timescales. This transition will take at least three generations –call it a century. There will not be one event –one massive, killer plague that sweeps the globe and takes out half the world’s population in one fell swoop. (I, for one, would argue that would probably be a much more humane way for it to happen.) Instead, what we will see will be a gradual but steady reduction as famines, disease and plague, climate change, and several wars all take their toll.

Why am I certain we have all ready hit the bottleneck? Peak Oil is behind us; that was the driver of growth for all these years. With no forthcoming growth in oil production, there can be no more economic growth. We are also at or nearly at the peak of several other necessary resources –water, phosphorous, seafood, topsoil, etc. There will be a lag time of several years as depletion arcs work there way through human systems, but soon it will be all downhill in terms of population. At least for a long while. I do not expect the extinction of the human race –we are far too tenacious and far too adaptable.

In the end this will be a good thing. Oh, not for the people whose lives are cut short. But we are not the only species on this planet and a reduction in our numbers will be good for all the others and the planet herself. I also think it will be good for the human race as a whole. With less of us around, each of us who are left will matter more. Imagine a time when every person is special again instead of just one more face.

This isn’t a post about how we personally can survive the bottleneck. Because this transition will take about a century, no one who is alive now, save perhaps a babe in arms, will see the other side. Our job is to survive as long as we can as well as we can and to do our best to make certain our descendants and those we care about live as well. Even those of us who have no children have young people we care and worry about. What can we do to help ensure this?

· Become as self-sufficient as possible. Know how to take care of yourself and live as disconnected from the system as possible. These systems will all start to break down as things get worse.

· Teach young people the skills they need to take care of themselves. Get them unplugged from the IPOD and the internet for a while. Make sure they know how to garden and can and hunt.

· Don’t live in heavily overpopulated areas. This includes much of the world –and especially the southwestern U.S. Try not to live in any area that is drought prone. Wars are going to be fought over water in the coming years. You don’t want to be someplace where your life will (literally) depend on the outcome.

· Get out of major metropolitan areas. I’m not saying move to the sticks, but get out of New York, Chicago, L.A., etc. These areas will be hit hard as public health systems break down –cities have traditionally been breeding grounds for massive plagues, and when modern sanitation systems go by the wayside, this will become true again.

· Get in shape and get out of debt. ‘Nough said.

There are many other things I could add, but I think that’s enough. Everyone who reads this is going to know how much trouble we are in right now, and the basic things we can do for ourselves.

I would like to close this short essay with a description of the world as it will be far after the fall of Western civilization. I do not share the despair of many in the environmental movement. Yes, we have done great, serious, and irreparable harm. Harm that we should (rightly) spend the next several generations setting to rights. But we have come nowhere near destroying the earth, as many people believe. We do not, lacking a nuclear war or a superbug that wipes out all plant live, have that kind of power. This kind of notion once again arises from those who are confusing human time with nature’s time. Do not think in years or decades. Think in centuries and millennia.

A hundred years from now, what will the world look like if civilization collapses soon? Well, most of our buildings will be gone. We are not the Romans, who built for the long haul. Most subdivisions will have reverted to nature, and 90% of the houses will have fallen down or nearly so. Most skyscrapers will have collapsed. Concrete roads will have cracked and many overpasses will have come down. The forest will have returned with a vengeance across broad swaths of the world. Climate change will still be ongoing. There will still be a lot of pollution. The ocean will be nowhere near clean yet, though it will be much cleaner with the cessation of toxic waste and plastic dumping. Nuclear waste and invasive species will still be a problem. Most of our dams will still be standing.

Fast forward to a 1,000 years from now. Nascent successor civilizations will have formed. The effects of climate change will be slowly leveling off. Invasive species will have come to new balances with the local ecology. The Roman and other ruins will still be around, albeit in slightly worse shape than today. Almost all traces of our buildings will be gone. The remains of tract houses and interstates will be buried beneath a new forest floor. Many of the world’s largest cities will be underwater. Most dams will have significant cracks or have breached entirely. The oceans will have started their recovery. New species will have started to evolve or will expand their areas into niches vacated by those we’ve driven to extinction. Mother Nature’s own cleaning systems will have started to deal with the chemical pollution and other waste we’ve left behind. No one really knows how fast evolution can happen, but there are good signs that it can happen extremely fast and thus there might all ready be new microbes that eat plastic or toxic waste. Nuclear waste will still be a problem. The best preserved relics will be in deserts.

10,000 years from now. Humanity will probably sill be around. The effects of climate change will be mostly over. The world will almost certainly be in an ice age or have gone through one by this point. Large glaciers will descend from the poles and scrub the earth down to the rocks. Whatever is left of Western civilization will mostly disappear beneath them. The Statue of Liberty, one of the few things that will last a long time as it is made of bronze, will end up at the bottom of New York Harbor. (Assuming it is not all ready there.) Lower sea levels will allow our descendants to tred ground that has been underwater for generations. They will see strange shapes that resemble metal towers encrusted in the mud and algae of the former ocean floor. Even Hoover Dam will have breached by this date. The oceans will still have some pollution but not a lot. Most what will be there is plastic that hasn’t yet ended up buried on the ocean floor. Nature’s cleaners will be hard at work by this point, taking down all the nasties we’ve invented. We will probably have new civilizations, though they will lack the resources to climb to the point we are at right now. They’re archaeologists may dig down into the midden and find the remains of vinyl siding and Teflon skillets, but these will be curiosities more than anything. The biggest problem remaining will be nuclear waste –both from power generation and nuclear warheads.

100,000 years from now. It is more than conceivable that homo sapiens will still be around. We’ve been around in our current form for more than that, and the average run for a species is longer than this. What will their societies look like? I have no idea, and would not presume to say. But they will live in a much cleaner world. The oceans should have completed their recovery. New species will have certainly developed by this point to take over vacant niches. Even Hoover Dam and Three Gorges Dam will be nothing but concrete fragments. There will still be some chemical and heavy metals pollutions, but even that will have been diluted by the passage of time. Even nuclear waste will have lost some of its potency. Will our descendants still tell stories of times we flew in the air and walked on the moon?

1 million years from now. Humans will almost certainly either be extinct or have evolved into something far different than our current incarnation. By this point the last traces of our civilizations –nuclear waste –will no longer be around, or at least not enough of it to be hazardous. There will still be bronze tools and statutes. It will be a different world, yes, but a living world nonetheless –and one the passage of time has scrubbed clean of our folly. In the end the things we have built that will endure the longest are not on this planet at all. Millions of years from now, there will still be a few sets of footprints and a lonely flag on the moon. When the sun goes nova and wipes even that out, far from our solar system Voyager will still be journeying, heading towards a far distant star


MoonRaven said...

Great pics, Freeacre (the salad and challah are making me hungry and the chicks are just cute--as is Brie.

Great post, RAS. Yes, it's bad news but almost everyone who posts here could see it coming. Still, you have good advice and good perspective. What more can you ask for?

RAS said...

Somehow this post seemed a lot more distant last week before I heard the words 'swine flu outbreak'.

Ah well. The dangers of prophecy.

And quite clearly I need to work on my proofreading, lol.

freeacre said...

You know, ras, I've been thinking about the Population Bomb ever since Ehrlich wrote his book. There are so many things that could have been done while the population was 3 billion (when I was your age) rather than 6.5 or whatever it is now. We could have had massive education about it. We could have offered cash or educational incentives for those who got vasectomies or had their tubes tied. We could have offered a lump sum of money to spend or give to our children if we opted to die at 70 rather than go for the 90 or 20 years in a nursing home or whatever.
But, I have concluded that NOTHING will be done to reduce the population as long as we have capitalism (requires ruthless unremitting growth), Big Pharma, and Big Church. It is not in their interests. And, they run it. Maybe biological warfare, when the shortages become real obvious (any time now). But, nothing even semi-sane.
Your long term scenario is a comfort.

freeacre said...

Oh, yeah, I forgot to tell ya - when I was driving back from Carson City I saw a bumper sticker that actually said, "Save the Earth - Kill Yourself."

RAS said...

I forgot to say how cute that picture of Brie is. She's such a gorgeous dog!

Is everyone doing okay? We've had our first cases of swine flu here. All the schools, daycares, preschools, and some of the parks and public places are closed until at least Monday. All sporting events are canceled until Tuesday at the earliest. They're not taking any chances. I'm not sick, but I'm getting a little paranoid.

freeacre said...

It's hard to say what is going on with the flu. Conflicting reports of statistics altered both up and down. Good to get information from each other regarding real life experience. Nothing here so far. I will get bleach and disinfectant and anti-diarrhea medicine just in case of eventual shortages. We need the stuff anyway. But, all this non-stop hype from the lamestream makes me question whether it's just a distraction from something else or fear-mongering from which someone is going to get rich. The real epidemics that are going to be so debilitating to the country that it is almost unimaginable are autism and Alzheimers. Don't see the WHO publicizing those though....
And, yeah, Brie is a darling dog. We are lucky to have her. So very many animals are so wonderful and can teach us so much about love and loyalty, courage, humor, and being in the here and now. What a blessing.

Anonymous said...

brie TV. wadda hoot!!

good job ras. there is post up today on the FTW blog by MCR hisself that contains corroboration on some of your views though that is not its purpose. Its purpose is two-fold: book launch (tomorrow) and comment about the flu pandemic...

i agree with most of your comments with the exception of this... "There will not be one event..."

the very opposite would not be unprecidented. i site the lemurian, pangean, and atlantian eras as examples. in addition, archegologic, anthropologic, geologic, etc records tells us otherwise. at least as far as the planet is concerned. as the planet goes so goes that which inhabits it. collapse of civilizations at their own hand pales in comparison to extreem earth change.

are we dead man walkin? not necessarly. i share your optimism.

back to the book... A PRESIDENTIAL ENERGY POLICY. titled intentional to get the administration to read it? that'd be my guess... p

freeacre said...

A shout out to Belgium...are you still getting better, or having a relapse? Hope you are well.

freeacre said...

I don't know about you guys, but I think ras has chosen a topic worthy of much discussion right now. Personally, I have a sense of death very close to me (both personally and from many projections from climate change, resource depletion, now pandemic, etc. as well as 2012 predictions, Mayan calendar, galactic progression, and on and on. Yet, I also have baby chicks, new sprouts coming up and spring in the air bringing life and hope.
It's a challenging time for the thoughtful person, and the cognitive dissonance is almost painful. No, it is painful. I appreciate p's remarks regarding single events that have wiped out previous civilization. Are we on the verge of another one?
I am wondering why there have not been as many comments as usual in the past couple of weeks or so. What's going on? I know you guys are out there. What are your thoughts?

nina said...

I think most people who would ordinarily comment are lately overwhelmed, not knowing anymore where to start, so many catastrophes dovetailing, so many personal problems resulting from the literal upheaval of humanity, its all become too much. The once skeptical are now feeling doomed and taking stock seeing the futility of their existence. The slogans of "hope" or "change" or "progress" have shown themselves to be linebreaks in a Dickens novel. Ras's essay nutshells what our offspring will be facing almost word for word in my own thinking. The brutal reality of the present and of our past, all the way back through recorded history, tell us it really won't vary much from Ras's predictions. In other words, we can't fail to see how it is now. A growing pyramid of ill-addressed crises ... what else ould possibly lie ahead for the remainder of civilization?
We cannot even move as freely as Depression era hobos did without being slammed into OZ, and then what, meet up with the lovely guards fresh back from the frontlines? For every hopeful Can-Do there is a massive lobby enforcing Can't-Do. This recent pandemic threat in the middle of the torture scandal, in the middle of the economic crisis overlayering the health crisis under all of which is the now cruel and obvious destruction of our planet and climate chaos, the people are just unable to pinpoint exactly how or where or on what issue to express their shock and awe that has no effect at all against the mushrooming forces of evil.

Anonymous said...

Oh, I donno, fa. Getting burned-out on all of the nonsense on the blogs, doomer and regular MSM BS sites to the point where I don't know what to do, think or feel about anything anymore. It's like that scene in "Overboard" where the little kid is throwing grapes at Goldie Hawn face as she's blubbering "bubububububu...."

This flu thing, I could care less about. I think it's all fear-mongering meant to take the eyes off of more important balls -that are down on page 8 or page 10.
Torture? Yes, we're a nation that tortures -and murders others via war for fun and profit, but what can I do about it? Not a damn thing. I'm not a filthy rich banker, sleezy CEO or a member of AIPAC, which means I'm a "useless eater" who doesn't have one ounce of power in this 'Murika. Just wondering when the hammer's gonna fall on my job.

And on top of that, my peppers aren't doing so well in their pots. They grew to about an inch or two and in February/March -and that's it. They're still only an inch or two high! As my Brit friends would say, "Bloody Hell!" Well, they don't say that too often, but it would be really cool if they did.

A hundred years or so, Ras? I think Mother Earth needs to kick our asses faster than that.


freeacre said...

Thank you for your thoughts, Nina and Randy. The times are, indeed, overwhelming. One of my main comforts, however, is the sharing of hearts and minds and perspectives from the trout clan tribe. And, even though appearances are dire, we can also feel less victimized by sharing examples of our small successes in shunning the machine and creating our own paths. That's pretty much what we are here for.
Randy, I haven't been able to grow a pepper yet. Maybe they take bonemeal or potash instead of nitrogen or something. I'd suggest looking it up on Google and letting us know what the secret is.
Nina, so nice to hear from you. I love your beautiful blogsite:
If you want to be considered a regular with the tribe, I'll link your site to ours under the trout clan blogs on the front page.

"... the people are just unable to pinpoint exactly how or where or on what issue to express their shock and awe that has no effect at all against the mushrooming forces of evil."

Yeah. I hear you.

murph said...


The only question I have on this post is your statement;
"The first, and the one I’m certain everyone would prefer, is a gradual, humane way. This path involves a gradual stabilization of the human population over several generations, followed by an equally gradual reduction".

This makes the assumption that we have generations of resources to accomplish the stabilization, much less while the population then declines. I would like to assert that this is highly improbable, at least from the stats that I have been seeing. Whether we will experience a gradual increase in prices of resources or a sudden hitting of the wall of availability is open to question for me.

Either way it goes, I doubt we can sustain the present usage of most of the resources for two more generations, about 40 years.

I agree that politically and with present social values, it won't even be attempted.

Since I am a dyed in the wool doomer on this subject, I expect it to be climactic. Wonder if I will live long enough to see how it comes out.

RAS said...

Randy, mother nature works on her own timescales, which have nothing whatsoever to do with ours.

Murph, that's what I said in a nutshell. After that statement I said there was no way for it to work. "It also has less than a snowball’s chance in hell of working. Why? Remember that we are all ready well into resource depletion. We do not have the resources to support the current population for the rest of their lives much less several generations."

I'm also a doomer on this subject, especially compared to the pie-in-the-sky people.
Nina, thanks for your comments too.

P, what you're talking about are the Extinction Level Events (ELEs), most of which occured early in Earth's history. I'll say more later but I need to go right now.

murph said...


Your right. I had read the post several times and somehow failed to see that caveat. I must have had my head in my ass that day. Made some other blunders in email lately. sigh.

Grange market today. We're going to try and sell a few goodies.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

Thanks for the concern Freeacre, I am feeling much improved of late. The very nasty gutsy thing has gone away although the less severe chesty thing is still hanging on a tad but we are tough in the marines (If you saw me you would realise how much of a joke that is). This swine fever thing which is also, I believe, associated with bird flu and can cross the human barrier is quite a puzzler. Apart from people being pig sick about it and coming out in rashers, I really don’t know what to make of it. Just like the adage ‘Just because you are paranoid it doesn’t mean they are not out to get you’; I am not a conspiracy theorist but I do believe conspiracies exist. I find it hard to believe that such a cocktail of nasty things just happened all by itself.

Btw Happy birthday to me, Happy birthday to me…….. I finally made it to pension age although with the house move and being in hospital for a bit, I was late putting the papers in so when it eventually comes it will be backdated to May 2. Chris asked what I wanted for my birthday and stocking up on food which was the preferred option seemed such a boring present I have to stick my hand up for buying stuff; I know I should have known better but there it is. I got a 22 inch flat screen for the computer; prices are falling quite a bit here now and I thought why not. I also have a program which Chris’s speech therapist recommended and she mentioned that flickering CRT’s particularly on start up are not particularly good for her so that was a side justification for it. Silly me connected everything up and then realised that I needed the old screen on to install the drivers for the new one. It looks fine although it will not give good reproduction at the resolution they recommend and I have to use a much lower one. At the moment I am sitting in a mass of cables and nothing is back where it should be. Also, with downsizing the apartment I keep falling over a box of surround sound speakers I bought cheap about four years ago at a computer fare but never had a suitable sound card to drive them so I bit the bullet and bought one of those too. As a sop to my conscience I bought four, glass storage jars each capable of holding five Kg of rice, so that is two for the glutinous rice and two for the Jasmine long grain rice. Perhaps another one next month for the Basmati rice although I don’t have too much of that and it is a little on the expensive side – we shall see.

Anyway I wanted to comment on Ras’s thoughtful post and some of the comments, particularly from Fa and Nina but I don’t have the time right now to do the subject justice, it deserves more than a passing phrase or two, so perhaps tomorrow.


freeacre said...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, BELGIUM!! A pleasure to share the planet with you! And, congrats on the pension! 'Way cool. We love you.

Anonymous said...

Good one RAS, the scenario sounds like it my fit just as good as anything else that might be imagined. Man i got to ask over and over again, how in the fuck did minds that gave us walking around on the moon,( maybe) and something as magical as this computer i'm sending these words on not have the awareness nor motivation to notice that the only home we have systematically is being made uninhabitable?
To this one it still remains that the inability to understand oneself and to realize that there is basically no difference between us and that we have been conditioned from and maybe before birth to hate in the form of being denied love on the one hand or being so called loved on the other which actually translates out to be bribery.
To be forced into the role of being the one of importance, the one being left out, the absolutely denial of being given the opportunity to the discovery of our true nature, which is based on so much more then that which has been revealed so far by those that are supposed to Know of such things.
They do not.
They are liars and mind fuckers, and play the game for self gain on some level or another.
It seems there is no end to the whys of our massive self-destruction, and just maybe that is reason enough in itself.
Ras, it may just be time for most of the humans to wither away into that which they are, witless and seeing with eyes that have no soul behind them.

It does seem cruel but who among us sees the whole picture anyway? it sure as hell ain't me anyway.(i hope) but what i can see is that there is a hell of a lot more going on then the assholes that think they are running things know about.!

Humans are the the awareness horse following the carrot of society never quite getting the actual bite but nevertheless will not stop trying.
Little do they know that the carrot is death on a string, tasty but deadly,bringing all kind of nasties into the realm of behavior.
The master holding the reins has a sack full of delicious carrots, why? Maybe to snack on himself. little does he know that the sack is made of illusion but shines beautiful in the fading sunlight.
The wagon grows closer to home, the horse is weary and thirsty and longs for that great lay down and nap of dirt.
It does not have far to go;

The incredible beauty of the present moment, the soft air with moisture which is rare in this dry place allows breathing as a fine stroke of luck.

My new allies which i wish i could send a picture of would be nice, are in the back yard giving welcoming sounds to those that pass by, they have come to know the regulars and do not sound the alarm of intruders which would drive a person insane if it was kept up for very long;

See no reason our wonderful managers of this sacred fire could not place thumbnails zipped and openable here in the comment spot, anyone savvy enough to pull that one off?

SATS, its good to hear that you are recovering from the health nibblers/
its so damn important to research (and i do every day) the ingredients of good body condition which are in abundance with watchful eyes that shield us from the snake-oil cocksuckers.

Welcome Nina, good to have folks at the council fire that might have been here for some time but are shy about jumping into this online nut house,(at times) i do my part to ensure the level of demeanor has a place of honor also. What was that all about, ?
The sheer amount of god vibes and love that are attracted here is just excellent.

the love garden is smokin and looking good.

no business license?what the fuck? goddam government!

i was chatting with cricket (langosta) and she told me that the cops that are in our village are not members and that they are invaders and sent here to create disharmony among us and it has, she told me i should talk to them and explain the role of warrior which is to defend the village in times of invasion and at other times to put the guns away and help with the gardens, little ole ladies, the baseball team and shit like that (actually i put in the word shit, she does not swear, i do not know why ) .
These guys (2) are despised by everyone i know or at least diametrically opposed to their presence, however there are those that say we need this kind of Gestapo bastards, these are the old ones that never come in contact with them and sit in their house and watch drive by- s on their tellies and are scared shitless by the outside world.
These are the ones that keep them circling the village like cockroaches on crack looking for the most minute indiscretion, pouncing upon the hapless victim,
THE new policy of ordering the kids off out street (no typo) street by certain hours in order for what i do not know, there is no reason for the kids to be out as late as they want to as near as i can tell, its just one more way of mind-setting the young'uns for their future?, control of motion and slave to a god-damn clock, fuck those have got to be the most detestable, despicable mother of evil inventions ever created by a deranged mind sipping god juice/
so on and on it goes,, even in a little out of the way place like this, its roots are immersed in the behavior of evil brought here by the bible thumper piss ants that despise life and all living things but love and have orgasms with their mother fucking jesus GOD!!

but other then that its really a nice day to be alive in spite of the fact that i think this planet is a giant insane asylum.
who among us think that we would be allowed to go out among the stars as the first space ship would be full of jesus's best cretins looking for a world to plunder and commit genocide upon the inhabitants ?

WHICH,! reminds me its the time of year when i round up as many teenagers that are aware of my slant on the religious and have my annual bible burning event.
We go to the country build a big fire, past a big thick bible around each one in turn tearing out the pages of fear and tossing them into the fire and chanting songs of love and freedom for one another all the while.
i can tell ya this it truly satisfies the soul to witness the power of saying fuck off to the church by these youngsters.
And these young people have good hearts and do only that which youngsters do, which is, well, everything that they can think of and then some, but malicious is not part of the escapades they enjoy among themselfs.

in the nine years i have been here i have not seen one single nasty thing this particular group has participated in.
but on the contrary are glad to help in anyway they can, even without the benefit of pesos.
its a good feeling to be among them i can tell you that and feel honored that they look to me as a trustworthy ally.
i will not bullshit them and will tell them i do not know when i do not know and also that this world they are in the process of inheriting is a rape scene and that its their place to do with it as they see fit.
ADVICE is snake poison to these youngun's and the adult? that pursues this line of behavior should have there privates removed;
it is probably the most useless endeavor ever passed on, plus the kids at least in the early years just know that you are full of shit, anyway,period.

So off we go,control, control, control, rules, laws,compliance, gagggggg.

ok i'm done,
probably wont be invited back but a man has to say what a man has to say no matter what.

i can say this, i love all of you and there is not and never will be one single string attached to that love, hug.

i see we truly are one in the spirit and also feel that we that attend this sacred fire will somehow be able to share more then we know of now and it will not be that long in coming.( hopefully it won't be one of Halliburton's honor farms.)

peace and prosperity
montana freeman

Anonymous said...

my brother SATS, has it been a year already,? my god how fast it goes, well hoping the next one is all that you can use to make a prosperous and healthy one for yourself and your family.
your brother cherokee

RAS said...

Happy Birthday Belgium! Well, belated birthday now. Congrats on the pension. The way we say the comment paranoia here is "it's not paranoia if they really are out to get you!" It's funny how cultures say the same thing in different ways.

MF, thanks for the comments.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

It is time to pass an opinion on Ras’s post. Firstly, as you indicate, it is largely preaching to the converted but that is not a criticism unless you take it as a positive one, the occasional posts I put up are exactly the same. If we catch some newbies to the subject along the way then that is good too. As Nina has said, where to start is like grabbing hold of jello so when in doubt sort out the essentials.

I will carry on from last time with a small observation about the swine flu. It made the news over here that many people who had a wad in their back pocket, not the ones whose jobs have been exported, were asking for private consultations with specialist doctors to get Tamiflu shots. Notwithstanding that Tamiflu is supposed to counter the effects of bird flu and the latest mutation is swine flu which is not the same, some have suggested that Tamiflu is the problem because it is in some way tainted and after the initial newsworthy scare, Tamiflu is how the disease will be propagated. As the saying goes, you pays your money and you takes your choice. Some may regard this as a further attack on the middle class.

Let’s have a look at population, not particularly as an effect it has on the planet but as shear numbers. The USA has 0.4bn people and China has 1.4bn people although it has been for some time following Ras’s humane preferred method of limiting every female to one child. You sometimes hear occasional horror stories about local cadres forcibly aborting seven month pregnant women but the official way it works is that if a female gets pregnant for a second time she looses all rights to state welfare and probably pensions too. I don’t hear too much about it but it appears to be going through the stabilisation process. As Murph has previously pointed out, such a process could only be carried out in a closed society not in the west where we have apparent freedom and also there is the additional problem of resource depletion kicking in before the process is hardly underway. What has stymied the process in the past is now regarded as the natural antagonism between nations. Even during WW11, Hitler encouraged by financial means, families to breed so that they could have more numbers of future warriors than their advisories. Britain responded with family allowance which was much the same thing. Even in these times of obvious resource depletion, our new ex Nazi pope has again banned the concept of contraception so that the Church of Rome can have more numbers than the Jews Protestants or Muslims. When you have such an influential body which represents nobody’s interests except its own then there is little hope for anthropological bodies to spread the alternative word.

When it comes down to individual choices, I know some ladies who are thinking of reinvesting in the future. But as much as I would like to bounce the offspring on my knee, where do you start in telling them it is a good idea to reconsider, how can you paint a picture of the future as we variously see it? It is like one of those trial movies where the defence claims it has not received the appropriate information and the prosecution responds by sending around ten truck loads of papers which have to be read by the next day.

Great rant mf but here is where I take exception with you brother. Burning Bibles is a dangerous thing; it denies future generations of knowing where it all went wrong. If you ban religion it will only go underground like it did in the former USSR or else somebody else will re invent it; probably a smiling black guy with tombstone teeth a suit and a TV show. Better to meet it head on and say “We used to believe this but now we believe in something else for these reasons”. Do you remember the film “The Name of the Rose”? It went about the Spanish Inquisition’s attempts to burn the remaining original works of Aristotle and Sean Conroy’s character’s attempts to save them. The Spanish Inquisition believed they were as 100% right as you do by burning Bibles.

Here is some bad news and some not so bad news. The bunker buster bombs much loved by Bush and the Pentagon contain depleted uranium in the nose cone. The reason Uranium is used is that it is unique amongst metals in that when it hits a hard substance like concrete, instead of deforming, it will shed off layers like a pencil when it writes and self sharpen. That is why it can penetrate so far. On west to east wind currents, it takes four days to reach the UK from Iraq. The only place on earth where it is measured is the old Aldermaston laboratories. This is where the “Ban the Bomb” marches of the 60’s ended up and it is now owned not by the British government but by Halliburton. This information was forced from Halliburton by the Freedom of information act. Thanks to Mr Bush there is loads of this stuff in the atmosphere and the really bad news is that it has a half life of 4.46 billion years. Whatever there is now, half of it will be gone in 4.46 billion years and half of that in another 4.46 billion years and so on By which time our sun will have gone nova. I will not say good news exactly, but the not so bad news is that biologists have found new life forms in the lagoons of Chernobyl, so there is some hope for the planet. Nature always seems to find a way.

Here is where I have to nail my colours to the mast and say that I am as much of a doomer as Murph. My particular view is that the economic crash that is presently underway will be the tipping point for many knock on effects to hit ordinary people. Ras takes the long view as does John Michael Greer. He said that none of the bad things which were predicted for the Bush administration actually came about. There was no martial law; no internment in the Rex camps; no nuking of Iran and no nuclear event on west coast USA and all those who believed such things were guiled by internet hooey. Personally I think that if Dick Dastardly had managed to get his six nukes off the American land mass things might have turned out differently. The world may have been saved by one observant grunt. The problem I have with John Michael Greer is that he is dismissive of people who don’t share his views right down the line. He was particularly flippant when Rockpicker put his nose on similar facts a month or two ago. Here is an alternative view of how the future might pan out by Dr Edwin Vieira with his plan A to be followed by plans B &C which then all go round in a loop.

Given the nature of Joe Six Pack, Vieira’s hopes for the revitalisation of the militia seem unrealistic to me.

I do agree with Ras that after oil, water will be the next big resource problem and after that climate change. I have heard it argued that other things apart; climate is affected by cosmic rays emanating from the centre of the galaxy. When the sun lines up with the spokes of the galaxy there are more cosmic rays than otherwise which causes sun spots which cool the earth and thus bring on an ice age. I do not know whether this theory has any substance or not. The ‘other things apart’ is what the collective We do to throw a spanner in the spokes.

And yes Randy, what can we do to take back the system for ourselves? Collectively, yes but on an individual level all you can do is to ignore the system as far as possible. And from an ex pat Brit living in Belgium, “BLOODY HELL! Well I’ll eat my hat”. Actually we don’t say the hat thing very often.

freeacre said...

I'm wondering if the friggin' ice age is beginning now, as we have been having snow for 3 days and having to keep a fire going in the greenhouse. BULLOCKS!! (I got that one from watching "V for Vendetta.")

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

Thanks to those who sent good wishes. Yes mf another swing around the sun, it does tend to become increasingly repetitive. Thanks for the recent picture of the Flathead River; my, the splendour of nature. I owe you an e-mail my friend.

I have a question about the storage of food. I do hope someone can sort out a definitive answer for me. It goes over this business of killing pantry mites by freezing the rice for three days. I told my friend this weekend what I was up to and told of the regime I had read on the internet of freezing for three days, leaving at room temperature for ten days for eggs to hatch then re freezing for three days then out for ten days and then getting any final hatchlings by a final three days in the freezer. He didn’t exactly say I was a nut for doing it but he did look sceptical. His comment however was that freezing thawing and then refreezing of uncooked food would cause salmonella to set in. I know with other foods you are not supposed to do this so now I am confused. Can anyone give an answer to this one?

murph said...

Hey Belgium,

As usual, that article you linked to from 'news within views' has a lot of bite to it. I agree with almost all the guy has to say.

See the new Kunstler rant today?

I look at the information as the situation appears to be deteriorating on a world wide basis and paranoia springs to the forefront.

Personally, I find it amazing the amount of people who have thrown their emotional well being into the pot called renewable energy. I continually run into people that seemingly have done no more than skim the surface news on renewable energy sources and declare it to be the saving grace for us all. They have visions of gigantic wind farms and solar installations that will take over from oil and coal produced electricity. Ahhh, but only if it was true. Our dependency on the technological fix is going to have some pretty severe and bizarre backlash I suspect. When it shows itself to be inadequate to fix all of the human produced problems and calamities what will people then turn to for the fix? Religion? Now there is a very scary scenario. We've already been down that road and it didn't work then either. Is this specie called sapiens so mentally sick and incompetent that as a group they keep doing the same shit over and over till they kill themselves off?

murph said...


What if the food was vacuum packed? Would the freezing and unfreezing make a difference then? Maybe it's just simpler to look at the bugs as another form of protein?

I'm really quite unsure there is a real threat of salmonella contamination of dry grains. As far as I know, salmonella depends on dampness and pretty narrow temperature spreads to propagate. On the issue of grains and killing bugs and eggs in the package, I think salmonella is the least of your worries. It's picking the little buggers from between your teeth after dinner that bothers me.

freeacre said...

Good question about the rice. I think we have to think in terms of long term and shorter term storage. If you are going to think in terms of saving stuff for years and years, then it might be worth investing in bulk food items nitrogen-packed or freeze dried. Shorter term, you can go for canned, frozen then stored in plastic or glass containers or whatever. Beyond that, it's also good to grow or raise things that can reproduce themselves. Although, I'd have to be pretty up against the wall to begin to look at a box of guinea pigs as livestock. I can hear MoonRaven yelling in my imagination, "Be a vegetarian, Dumbass!" I think she's right.

RAS said...

FA, moonraven is a guy. ;-)

Warning: serious rant ahead. The sell of my house got scutttled today. Why? Apparently there's a lien on it I had no idea was there. You see, in the state of Alabama they do not have to inform you if they place a lien on your property. All they have to do is get a judgement saying you owe the debt, and the lien is automatically applied to any real property you own. They don't even have to send you a letter. And they seize your tax refunds. Which is what apparently happened to mine. Oh, and get this: these people are trying to get nearly $9k out of me. (Apparently, this is like 4 or 5 times the purported original debt.) Um, yeah right. I don't even have that much equity in the place!

So, the sell is off. But I still don't have enough income to support the place and finding enough roommates would be really tough in this market. So it looks like I get to file for bankruptcy.

Goddamn fuedal state.

Oh, and it gets better. I called these people to try and work out a deal. I asked if they'd take 25%. That way, the sell could go on. I'd end up with a couple of hundred bucks but wouldn't have to file. The weasal bitch LAUGHED at me. They would rather get nothing through bankruptcy than 1/4. Why? I suppose because they can write it -whatever the fuck it is -off on their taxes.

Anonymous said...

Belgium et al,

From _Nutrition and Diet Therapy_ , fourth edition, by Sue Rodwell Williams:
"... Salmonellae ... resist cold and survive for long periods in soil, ice, water, milk and foods. Since they do not form spores, they are easily killed by being boiled for five minutes or by pasteurization. Drying and direct sunlight also kill them."

I'm sure you're going to boil your rice longer than five minutes so there should be no problem, even if it somehow got contaminated. The author mentions the foods that might be contaminated -- custard, and the like -- no mention of anything at all like rice.

I would think grain moths would be much more likely -- and they'd be the buggers Murph would be picking out of his teeth.


murph said...


Oh dear lady, this is not good. I am so sorry about the house deal. I was crossing my fingers that you would get out from underneath your anchor. Hope you can work this out somehow.

Anonymous said...

Goddamn it Ras, grab yor long john's and come on up to montana, there's a college town just down the road between Rockpickers place and my digs,a little place called Missoula, it has scads of young folks and all kinds of alternative life styles, and things are on the reasonable side, plus the connections that can be made would really be a bonus.
it sounds like something you really might dig.
Anyway it really sucks when something like this happens, but you will make out ok, i just feel that what is happening might be an opportunity for bigger and better things to come your way.

SATS, i might go along with the notion of pause, but when looking under the skin of regular ''folks'' and having the ability to see the movement of evil tracing out its slick connivence in the form of a self-righteous smile or the false toleration of those standing outside the chosen few it really makes me all the more to dispose of every last one of the stupid fucks that suck in the lie that it is.
This is raw passion my brother, it runs deep and my country lies in gutted out nature, tombstones of genocide and piles of buffalo bones where once there was paradise, these came to pass with the death dealers and there book which taught them how to do it.
so i am not apt to ''turn the other cheek''as the sanctimonious cocksuckers are fond of echoing among them selfs.
i say fuck um/.!!! straight to there hell they are so bent on waving at us, the unclean.

other then that, have a nice day everyone. believe it or not there is love beneath the rage.,

freeacre said...

Oh, Dear. Apologies, MoonRaven, for the confusion. Guess I didn't read your blog profile carefully enough. But, I have to admit, that the ambiguous gender of some names at first is rather a pleasure. On cyclone's site (before ours) I wrote for a long while with most thinking I was male, I assume.
ras, another idea is an outfit called Prepaid Legal. They are cheap and may be able to help get that lien reduced. Google them for more info. What a bummer. And, to think, we are giving money to the filthy rich. Grrrrrr.
Having driven through it, I second Montana's idea that it is a cool town. . . and you are welcome to our rugged little guest trailer as well.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

So sorry to hear about the lien Ras. Whatever happened to suing you through the small claims court for the original debt and then working out a payment plan based on your income and outgoings and assets and liabilities? That’s the proper way it should be done. Just to place a lien on your property without telling anyone is scandalous. Freeacre’s idea of a few weeks ago of asking the lender to produce the paperwork might be an idea; if they can’t then you can just stop paying the mortgage. Then you have some options, you can pay off the lien and work out a deal on the mortgage by maybe extending the term or you can clear off to Masula for a while and still own the property. You can even squat in it or bulldoze it or anything you like. I will bet Bill gates or Warren buffet don’t have a lean on their property and contrary to popular legend they are not the richest people in the world. I have found that wherever you live there is always something. Over here in the police state of Belgium, if you don’t play the game right the lenders can come on to your family for your personal debts and then you would have to go to court to legally dissociate yourself from your family. Whatever the country or the system, money always flows in one direction.

Btw, thanks for the advice on the grains.

Anonymous said...

Yeah Ras, Missoula is great! It's a college town in a beautiful valley in the Rocky Mountains which means there's a million-and-one things to do. When I lived in Great Falls, a bunch of us would go to Missoula -to have fun! In the fall we'd go there to see the leaves change (due to the maple and oak trees) and in the spring, the streams around the town were full of trout. It's a cool place that you might want to check out.


Anonymous said...

mf.... : - )!


Anonymous said...


i know i can put a mechanics lein on a house and they can still get the fucker closed.

has something to do with creating an escrow into which the lien is then shifted. can't you escrow $ to address the issue, close, then deal with it? just seems to me the buckos to do it must be less than the lein amt or they'd just pay bill and clear the lein. or maybe a way to get it back without satisfying the judgement.

google key words *free legal advice alabama* lotsa links and one hotline specific to foreclosures. try fine tuning the search to your specific issue.

and then there this online...
they have a real estate specific section.

murph said...

Hey Folks,

After Armageddon Has a new post up that I find really interesting. This is for Montana in particular.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

That is a really interesting article Murph. Living according to the rules of nature and in the hands of the Gods neatly sidesteps such artificial constructs such as whether John Zerzan is more or less right than the Deep Ecologists.

I wonder what Mrs Acres has to say about living in the hands of the Gods? Maybe I should ask him.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

This is amazing; did you know that your birth certificate is a security on the New York stock exchange. By quoting your birth certificate security code (printed on the certificate) to a stock broker he can tell you your net worth. Apparently international bankers need to know this information.

It gets more like Alice every day.

MoonRaven said...

Sorry to be getting into this a bit late, but I'm just pulling out of some messy work and family situations.

fa: No need for apologies--a good deal of the fault is mine. You could have read my profile carefully; until recently I didn't include a gender. I was playing with the ambiguity of the name but eventually realized that some people were going to feel like I was misleading them--I hope that you don't feel that way.

And I certainly don't want to be the fanatic vegetarian of your imagination. I am a vegetarian but I try not to be too militant about it. I only wish that people think well about what they are eating--and I certainly suspect you and Murph are very conscious about your food choices.

And RAS--I'm so sorry to hear about your housing woes. It's amazing that you can have a lien put on your house and not even be told about it. I hope that you can get it settled somehow. I can imagine that it's the last thing you need right now.

stoney13 said...


Great post! I loved the end where you detailed what the Earth might be like in the future.

I hate to hear your house deal went through, but here's a trick that got a friend of mine out from under his note. Demand the ORIGINAL mortgage agreement! If they don't have it, they're shit out of luck!

A lot of mortgages have been packaged and sold as securities so many times, they only exist in lists of MBSs.

They can say whatever they want, but if they don't have the original note, they're screwed! They HOPE you will be uninformed, and take their word for it, but take it from a half-breed Cherokee, White Eyes speaks with forked tongue, and it don't mean shit, unless they got the paperwork!

The swine flue shit is just that! SHIT! Another fear mongering tactic to scare us all about Mexican immigrants! I just hope Mexico is more accommodating when the flow starts going the other way!

Montana Freeman!

Great Rant! Always does my heart good to hear from The Bug! Maybe the reason she doesn't curse, is because a spirit being exists beyond space and time.

When you can see the whole picture, instead of just scraps as you go along, like we who are trapped in the flesh, then you have nothing to curse! You know how it all ends, and that's the way it is!


Hate to hear about the nasty illness. I go through a bout of sinusitis every year, and I've had "Hay Fever" all my life. It sucks when you get ANY kind of flue, but fortunately, I haven't had a stomach bug in at least five years. Hazel says no self respecting bug would want anything to do with my stomach, mostly because I developed a taste for raw hamburger in the SEALS, and the sight of me indulging in my uncooked snacking leads to my description as a "Wild man" or "Savage"!

I tell her "Why kill it twice? The cow was dead when they ground it up!"

She still trips out over it though! Yesterday I made friends with a six foot long black snake, who seemed to think I was a rather warm and accommodating tree! Very mellow, and peaceful creatures that get a really bad rap they don't deserve! Hazel was less than pleased with me when I brought it in the kitchen for an introduction!

Hope you and Chris are doing well now! Keep the faith, and have some green tea. The antioxidants will help get rid of the bug.


Brie is quite a character! She reminds me of my old Pit Bulldog Brutus, who thought he had to adopt everything that showed up in the yard!

He shared his food with a family of skunks every day. When the mother skunk kicked the youngsters out the nest, they took up with Brutus, and followed him in perfect single file all over the neighborhood, and joined him in his bed, until they headed off into the wild.


The ammo I used on the hickory log, was Remington 180 grain jacketed soft points. Good plinking ammo, but I like to load High-Shocks for self defense. I've been burning a lot of powder lately, and thinking about getting into reloading. Caught these on sale last year, and bought a shitload of them for five dollars a box! Seems .44 Magnum ammo was in low demand for some reason, but they couldn't keep 9 millimeter parabellums on the shelves! Go figure!

stoney13 said...



I got one coming up in June! 52 this year! *sigh* Where's the time go?

RAS said...

I don't think demanding the note would work for me because I had a first time homebuyer's loan, so the note would be fairly easy to find. *sigh*

Things pretty well suck right now.

The weather here is awful. We had four inches of rain yesterday. Not this week, YESTERDAY. The total for this week is between two and three times that.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

Ras, sigh, when it doesn’t go right nothing goes right. It is worth asking the question anyway; if you don’t ask you will never know for sure and if they can find it then nothing lost. To top it all, Murph has caught my stomach bug over the internet, I sympathise.

Anonymous said...


We have just added your latest post "Trout Clan Campfire: Welcome to the Bottleneck" to our Directory of Environment . You can check the inclusion of the post here . We are delighted to invite you to submit all your future posts to the directory for getting a huge base of visitors to your website and gaining a valuable backlink to your site.

Warm Regards Team

Joint said...

Sorry to be getting into this a bit late, but I'm just pulling out of some messy work and family situations. fa: No need for apologies--a good deal of the fault is mine. You could have read my profile carefully; until recently I didn't include a gender. I was playing with the ambiguity of the name but eventually realized that some people were going to feel like I was misleading them--I hope that you don't feel that way. And I certainly don't want to be the fanatic vegetarian of your imagination. I am a vegetarian but I try not to be too militant about it. I only wish that people think well about what they are eating--and I certainly suspect you and Murph are very conscious about your food choices. And RAS--I'm so sorry to hear about your housing woes. It's amazing that you can have a lien put on your house and not even be told about it. I hope that you can get it settled somehow. I can imagine that it's the last thing you need right now.

Leonard said...

And on top of that, how many people just hang up on telemarketers today? Sending out a fax broadcast is a fast and efficient way to reach those who need your services. The benefits of internet fax are countless like it is paperless, inkless, more secure, more economical and more convenient than the old conventional fax machine. How hard can it be?Which Type Of Online Fax Plan Is Right For You These services used security measures, but many people still did not trust them enough to use them to send important documents. They typically allocate 1 month free trial meant for faxing services. One of the final considerations that you have to remember is only acquiring the bare lowest sum that you require. Many companies, managers or ordinary personal fax users tend to choose or go with major Internet fax companies such as MyFax, eFax, TrustFax, RapidFax... This new eco-friendly way of faxing will save valuable resources, while saving you or your company from the expenses of buying all those inks, toners and papers. With pricing for internet fax machines starting at $7.99 if you send and receive under 300 fax pages per month then you're probably paying too much for your current fax machine service. As a result of this fact, for someone, who simply lacks the time to go through the financial institution procedures, this is among the easiest ways to lend some quick money.