Tuesday, September 15, 2009


First some pics of gardens and produce

Rockpicker and Oldensoul garden in Montana

Stone planter by Rockpicker

Freeacre's latest, Orange zest wheat bread

Our latest garden produce, onions and carrots

Thoughts on the Nature of Evil

This is a guest post kindly sent to us from Belgium (abridged due to length, but e-mail us and we could send you the entire essay as an e-mail attachment)

From Belgium

I have had some problems writing this piece because even after researching the internet, I still do not know where the answer lies and therefore offer it up as a discussion document with some initial meanderings to point your thoughts along the lines that I have traveled. You may have an entirely different response which I consider all to the good since such discussions will only put flesh on the bones of this effort.

There are two initial thoughts which occur to me, the first is a question regarding its nature. Is it a tangible concept say like friendship or is it more amorphous say like hope? Whatever it is, its manifestation is subjective in that my worst example may be trumped by your worst example so that its true extent may be only guessed at.

Wikipedia regards views on the nature of evil to fall into one of four
opposed camps:

Moral absolutism holds that good and evil are fixed concepts
established by a deity or deities, nature, morality, common sense, or some other source.

Amoralism claims that good and evil are meaningless, as there are no deities, no moral ingredient in nature.

Moral relativism holds that standards of good and evil are only products of local culture, custom, or prejudice.

Moral universalism is the attempt to find a compromise between the absolutist sense of morality, and the relativist view; universalism claims that morality is only flexible to a degree, and that what is truly good or evil can be determined by examining what is commonly considered to be evil amongst all humans.

Author and moral philosopher Sam Harris notes that universal morality
can be understood using measurable (i.e. quantifiable) metrics of happiness and suffering, both physical and mental, rooted in how the biology of the brain processes stimuli.

A more practical view states that all human life is sacred and any attempt to end another’s life deliberately is evil. In the interests of space I am going to leave the subject of euthanasia out of this discussion entirely. Any attempt to make another believe his life may be ended prematurely by torture is also evil as is torture of the mind as opposed to the body.
I am not going to choose one of these above the others but dip into them freely and to see where that takes us.

Hannah Aret wrote a book titled The Banality of Evil. This centered on the trial of Adolph Eichmann, which happened to take place in Jerusalem. She argued that rather than being a crazy fanatic (would probably now be called a fascist fundamentalist) he was an ordinary bureaucrat who accepted his place in the hierarchy and just got on with his job, which by chance happened to be the running of the death camps. For him it was clear that the heads of state set the policy; his roll was to implement it. Eichmann was trapped by having access to the ears of the true decision makers whilst being above the rank and file myriad bureaucrats who were just doing a job of work for the government. The banality comes from the fact that evil intent can be passed off down an organization by making it so routine it is never questioned.

There are a number of techniques for engaging the public in morally questionable acts. One is to split the work on a project between a number of locations as is common in the automotive industry for instance and distance the component plants from the assembly plant so the connection is not at the forefront of peoples minds. Another is to make the work production line mind numbing so people think “Anything this boring can’t be evil”.

Dual functional components are a way of sanitizing the product. A trip switch used in a missile may also be used in a domestic central heating installation for instance. Yet another is to wrap the project up in jargon so that WMD become as benign as SUV, sure they both kill people now and again but that is not their real purpose.

In the 1960’s MIT’s head of research argued that their concern was the development of technology, not its use. Making more adhesive longer burning napalm was just another interesting problem to be solved during the working day. That it gave innocent villagers an ugly death was not their concern as it was not the concern of the air crew who, distanced from the killing could also take a detached view.

The largest employer in the town where Columbine High School massacre took place is Lockheed Martin. When Michael Moore asked one of the directors the obvious question of isn’t what their company doing just the same as what the rogue kids had done only on a bigger scale, his reply was “No. The missiles which their company made were for the defense of the USA on American soil and not for offense against second or third states”. Of course not and history doesn’t bear it out either.

Sometimes people are head hunted for certain positions where they will be culpable in the continuance or development of some aspect of evil. Overt flattery is a way of bringing them on board by describing exciting aspects of the work and saying that the applicant could do this. It is very difficult technique to resist. Here is one person who did just this from the film Good Will Hunting. For those not familiar with the film Will is a janitor in a University until it is discovered that he is a mathematical genius able to solve problems that tie the professors up in knots. He is sent for a job with the NSA where he is interviewed by its head. After some initial sparing Will is asked why he shouldn’t want to join the NSA. Here is his answer:

Will: “Why shouldn’t I work for the N.S.A.? That’s a tough one, but I’ll give it a shot. Say I’m working at N.S.A. somebody puts a code on my desk, something nobody else can break. So I take a shot at it and maybe I break it. And I’m real happy with myself, ‘cause I did my job well. But maybe that code was the location of some rebel army in North Africa or the Middle East. Once they have that location, they bomb the village where the rebels were hiding and fifteen hundred people I never had a problem with get killed. Now the politicians are saying’, “Send in the marines to secure the area” ‘cause they don’t give a shit. It won’t be their kid over there, getting’ shot. Just like it wasn’t them when their number was called, ‘cause they were pulling’ a tour in the National Guard. It’ll be some guy from Southie takin’ shrapnel in the
ass. And he comes home to find that the plant he used to work at got exported to the country he just got back from. And the guy who put the shrapnel in his ass got his old job, ‘cause he’ll work for fifteen cents a day and no bathroom breaks. Meanwhile my buddy from Southie realizes the only reason he was over there was so we could install a government that would sell us oil at a good price. And of course the oil companies used the skirmish to scare up oil prices so they could turn a quick buck. A cute little ancillary benefit for them but it ain’t helping my buddy at two-fifty a gallon. And naturally
they’re takin’ their sweet time bringing’ the oil back, and maybe even took the liberty of hiring an alcoholic skipper who likes to drink martinis and play slalom with the icebergs, and it ain’t too long ‘til he hits one, spills the oil and kills all the sea life in the North Atlantic. So my buddy’s out of work and he can’t afford to drive, so he’s got to walk to the job interviews, which sucks ‘cause the shrapnel in his ass is givin’ him chronic hemorrhoids. And meanwhile he’s starvin’ ‘cause every time he tries to get a bite to eat the only blue plate special they’re servin’ is North Atlantic scrod with Quaker State. So what do I think? I’m holdin’ out for somethin’ better. Why not just shoot my buddy, take his job and give it to his sworn enemy, hike up gas prices, bomb a village, club a baby seal, hit the hash pipe and join the National Guard? I could be elected president.”

9/11 is too big a subject to get bogged down in here except to make a brief comment on Iraq. Whether Iraq was the reason behind 9/11 or was a reprisal for it, this country was chosen as a target when the CIA knew it had no connection with the events of that day. In fact since they invented Al Qaeda they knew from the beginning there was no connection. So why did the USA decide to kill tens of thousands of innocents in a country halfway around the world? There are two answers to this; the first is because they could (they had done it before and they knew they could do it again) and the second reason is because they deserved it. Saddam for good or bad had not unrolled his prayer mat and genuflected before the American God. It should be noted that both of these answers are good ones. Former friend had angered those who matter and life was forfeited as hubris won the day.

Sometimes the Universal Soldier can have ethical reservations over his or her allotted task. It takes more courage to make a stand and say no than to simply accept your lot and go with the flow. One such was Ehren Watada, an officer in the Stryker Brigade who refused to go with his group to Iraq. To combat foreseen accusations of cowardice his mother sent this open letter to explain her son’s actions.

“I am the mother of Lt. Ehren Watada, an officer stationed at Ft. Lewis. He is part of a Stryker brigade unit that deployed today to Iraq. Despite an unflinching commitment to his men and to democratic ideals, he chose not to accompany his men. His decision came through much soul-searching and through research and consultation with experts Dear Fellow Americans, across disciplines, inside and outside of the military and the government. After weighing the evidence, he came to the conclusion that he could no longer be silent while atrocities were committed in the name of democracy. He could no longer be a tool of an administration that used deception and lies to make the case for pre-emptive war. As a member of the armed forces, sworn to uphold the US Constitution, he refuses to blindly participate in a war of aggression, an illegal war that undermines who we are as a nation and violates international law. Implicit in his oath as an officer is the duty to disobey all unlawful orders for to carry out these orders renders him an accomplice to a criminal act. Furthermore, to order his men to participate in a war of aggression multiplies his guilt a thousand fold. His conscience will not permit him to do so. He believes that he can best serve them by taking a stand against the war. In so doing, he demonstrates that one does not relinquish the freedom to choose what is right, even in the military, and that the freedom to choose what is right transcends the allegiance to man and institutions.”

I think this just about puts good and evil in their respective positions.

Here is a story of someone who went with the flow and then regretted it afterwards. Even though as a result of his decision he was able to save many lives which would otherwise not have been the case. He regards himself personally responsible for “Loosing the World”. He was a chemical engineer and his story is related by Jacob Hornberger. His story relates to the general culpability theme but this time on a more conscious level. In 1935 Hitler’s Nationalist Socialist Movement was establishing its power and in order to unify the nation under one leadership, they wanted all citizens to take an oath of allegiance to the new party. Some like the engineer disagreed with the fundamental aspirations of the party and initially refused to sign. He later reconsidered and then regretted it for the rest of his life. Even though as a result of signing he later was able to save maybe 1000 lives he still thinks that if he and others like him had refused to sign then he could have saved all Eichmann’s victims plus the causalities of war. Because he accepted the lesser evil he fell victim to the greater evil. If in future times the American people are asked to sign an oath of allegiance to the American administration or the European citizens to the European Union how will we choose because there is no middle way with a Sophie’s choice?

”People often exhibit a visceral rejection of comparisons of our dire predicament to the rise of Nazi Germany.” Have you noticed how many Americans get upset over the comparisons that are increasingly being made between the United States and National socialist Germany? After all, it’s not as though we’re living in a police state, right? Well, if U.S. officials could somehow assure us that the U.S. government’s treatment of accused terrorists isn’t moving in the same direction in which Nazi Germany treated accused traitors, maybe that would help to put those comparisons to rest.

So, take the time to be sure to understand the momentous nature of the battle. Speak out about it, wherever and as often as you can. Make clear to everyone you know what is at stake, and convince them to fight, too.

For the present, we have the certainty of the Military Commissions Act—and the hope that we may still prevent its most ghastly eventualities. I pray that hope will be realized. The most terrible and terrifying thing of all, for those of you who will still be alive in forty or fifty years, will be to look back on this time, and to have to say, “Thus the world was lost”—and to know that, because you did not do everything you could, you helped to lose it.”

These discussions although centered on America do not except those on the other side of the pond. The EU as it is now known (haven’t we come a long way from the Common Market) first had Maastricht and now Lisbon as a way of trading freedom for security.

Incidentally it has been shown historically that the only purpose of torture is torture and it rarely if ever has any effective results. What about the ticking bomb scenario, is usually the next question? A nuke is set to explode somewhere in mainland USA within three hours and the only way to find its location is to torture the information out of someone. Is this not justified? Former President Clinton, ever one for an eye to a good public image, has rediscovered the judiciary as a way of passing the buck and has suggested the introduction of torture warrants in the same way as there used to be wire tap warrants (remember those).

The essential question we are coming around to is this, is it in a natural part of human nature to commit atrocities? The answer seems to be divided between those who would and those who would not. The biggest obstacle to overcome amongst military draftees is their resistance to kill another of their own species.

It was reported than in many instances, soldiers in the trenches during WW l never fired their weapon even when charged at. On the other side, in groups they seem to adopt a heard mentality especially when there is some personal gain to be had. To pick a few at random throughout history there were the Crusaders; the Conquistadors and the US soldiers who slaughtered the indigenous American peoples. Here the gains were souls; gold and land. Although these reasons are not excusable there was an identifiable end result but what about the early colonists who would shoot up an Aborigine village or an African village from the air for a bit of Saturday afternoon sport. There is obviously a level of superior/inferior mentality here but would any of these people consider themselves to be evil; probably not - would others judge them to be evil; probably? In some societies such people would not be punished for their acts but would be regarded as being out of balance and would be helped to have their complete being restored in balance. Are such attitudes wussy or enlightened? The difference in attitudes seems to be one of conscience.

Macbeth was a Scottish warrior with an impeccable record in battle but his down coming was an evil wife who had designs on becoming the power behind the throne. According to Scottish custom at that time succession could be passed down the family line but could also be awarded by the Royal Court to a person deemed to be a natural leader. Macbeth was a strong contender but this was not good enough for his wife who persuaded him to kill King Duncan and claim the crown. Eventually he was overcome with remorse and finished up going to pieces.

So the answer to the question of whether ordinary people can be made to act in an evil way appears to be yes, although we should not forget the soldiers in the trenches who would not shoot at the enemy.

Finally we come to two thorny questions: is it evil for one person or group to own another persons body and is it evil for one person or group to own another persons mind? Slavery has been with us for thousands of years and as such may be regarded as Custom and Practice. It is only in the last 150 – 200 years that it has become to be regarded as evil and only for the last forty or so years that former slaves had equal civil rights to other races in the USA. Certainly so far as the slaves were concerned, it was not a good deal to have their freedom taken away, although others would argue to the contrary. In order to provide good work for their owners the slaves had to be well housed, well fed and kept in better health than might otherwise be the case in order for the owner to protect his investment.

Some groups of Christians may not agree that former slaves and their families should be accorded any civil rights at all. We all know that the only time Jesus lost his temper was with the money changers at the Temple and even though slavery was rife at the time in the countries he traveled, he never spoke out against it once. God’s beloved Abraham, the Bible leads us to believe, with his wife’s permission, impregnated one of her slaves named Hagar. As time went by Hagar became insolent and as a result was severely beaten. When the opportunity presented itself she ran away but then met the angel of God on the road. Instead of guiding her towards her original land of Egypt, the angel advised her to “Return to thy mistress and submit thyself under her hand.”

Saint Peter devotes a whole chapter in his testament in the defense of slavery. He exhorts slaves to be “subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the forward (tough and cruel)”. Peter also tells slaves “when you do well and suffer for it, yet take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.” If Peter was hard on slaves, Paul was worse. In addition to making obligatory calls for obedience “With fear and trembling”, Paul went so far as to return a runaway slave to his master.

According to Samuel Francis who wrote in a 1998 edition of the magazine
Southern Partisan, “Neither Jesus nor the apostles nor the early church condemned slavery, despite countless opportunities to do so and there is no indication that slavery is contrary to Christian ethics or that any serious theologian before modern times ever thought it was.”

So there we have it. The keeper of the Universe’s moral code reckons that owning another person’s body is right on with him, at least so far as his representatives can be relied on. It also follows from this that the God of universal love and mercy also has sympathies with the Klan. I sometimes wonder that if the Christian God has such obvious double standards why the PTB want to abandon him in favor of Lucifer. Still, that is not my concern.

Zombies and people on life support can exist without a mind but so far as I know, without going into the realms of the paranormal, a functioning mind cannot exist independent of a body to house it. If owning another’s body is morally acceptable then owning another’s mind must also be acceptable by the same token. This argument gives the moral green light to projects such as MKUltra. (The details of which can be had by e-mailing for the unabridged copy of this post.)

Susan’s story is evil by any standards but not according to theologians.

Let us recap on a few logical conclusions here.

We are told in the Bible by the representatives of God that he (or she) does not have a problem with slavery. If it is acceptable for one person or group to own another’s body then it must also be acceptable to own another’s mind since the two are not separable. It is then honorable or, at least, not dishonorable to take another’s mind away from them and replace it with a creation of your own for your own purposes. The problem here is that if the 300 or so people that represent the 12 bloodline families that control the world take the rest of the world’s citizenry into slavery, including the whole of Christendom, this then gets a pass from God but these families are supposedly representatives of Lucifer so God is on a hiding into nothing. Unless, that is, you take the Book of Revelations as an accurate document.

Notwithstanding any of this, evil exists but it one of those words or concepts which defy a dictionary definition and can only be understood by way of examples about which you must make up your OWN mind.

The Banality of Evil
Wikipedia – Evil
Good Will Hunting – NSA Speech
The Terrorist – OPEC Meeting Attack
Vietnam War was Lost – The Quiet Mutiny Documentary by John Pilger
Ehren Watada – The soldier who refused a tour in Iraq
Universal Soldier Song Lyrics
Jacob Hornberger – Thus the World was Lost – Arthur Silber
The Ticking Bomb Scenario to Justify Torture – Arthur Silber
The Stanford Prison Experiment
Slavery Condoned in Bible
Derek Jensen – The Culture of Make Believe pp 54 – 57
Mind Control – Bryce Taylor / Susan Ford – Thanks for the Memories
e-book download


freeacre said...

... So, Belgium, am I to infer that you are not exactly a devoted member of the Church of England? lol
You asked whether evil is "tangible like friendship or more amorphous like hope." What if it's an energy - some sort of wave that you catch and ride like a surfer on a wave of water? Is there a dark energy -evil- and a light energy of love? My former church says, "no." There is no power of darkness, there is only absence of light. What appears to be evil is merely error.
I don't know. But, in human terms, I think evil refers to those who knowingly do things that cause people or other living things pain and not only don't care, but may actually take pleasure in doing so. Another person might do evil deeds, like work in a munitions factory, but they have no malicious intent. They might just be telling themselves that they are working "to protect our troops." I'd give them a little break on the karma count. Not a whole lot, though. With a normal sized brain, one should be able to recognize your bombs tearing apart civilians in nightly newscasts.
What about other animals than us? Is a preying mantis evil when she bites the head off her only temporarily satisfied mate? Or, a cat who seems to enjoy the fear and panic of it's tormented mouse? I think so. That's one reason I don't like cats.
I think evil has a lot to do with a sick disconnect between beings, so that they can commit atrocities without remorse. And, that, by the way, would include those sins committed by The Church and its henchmen.
Thanks, again, for the great post.

Anonymous said...

"I sometimes wonder that if the Christian God has such obvious double standards why the PTB want to abandon him in favor of Lucifer."

maybe they don't. why? because B, there is no dif!! i've made it my concern to know this.

that a book forwarding argument such as arendt's would even see the light of day is a demonstration that crazy fanaticism is not limited to crazy fanatics.

'normalization'.. as frogs in a pan are we. the rationalizers. the justifiers. the good guys.

i presume your ref to susan is to brice taylor, aka susan ford? in today's times it seems so difficult to know the real story about anything. but her story is, sadly, just the tip of a very real iceberg. this goes back to my recent comment to rp... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1496118956250582828#

such is what i mean when i make reference to what goes on in the g-a-p. and worse. much worse. if you can imagine it even.

and yes, i deninity want an unabridged copy of your story B. i think you have my email. excellent post. as always. your work is very much appreciated.

FA... comforting to hear such is your "former church". if its the one i'm thinking of i guess i could say the same except that i never really claimed it as such. did go for awhile back in the day though. led here at the time by kennedy schultz who later became the grand master or something like that. i walked out the day he screamed from the pulpit... if you think unconditional love is possible, FORGET IT.

i'm definitly more along the lines of your 'what if' scenario there; as in, the 'state' energies are in... p

btw... just this minute got an email notice from clif. new report just made available. shape of things to come, part 2 http://halfpasthuman.com/

Baz said...

FB—Kool! [confess—haven't even read it nyet—hah] Wow, I step away from the PC—machine for a lil' while, and .. a word bomb goes off! Ah well, how best to digest it all—?

Z, Prize? You and yours are safe. Thx all for heartfelt empathy regarding Ole lang synes, personal and national.

Not to sound like some sort of military analyst .. OK—maybe a little, 'tis unavoidable considering the corporatization of all armies these perilous daze, where civilians are groping around in the dark for understanding, while all else are equipped with night vision scopes ... striking at will, without warning, without any verifiable recourse, and with perfect immunity .. sanctioned by the state, and enabled by the taxpayer (civilian), who genuinely doesn't have a clue what's goin' on—or it would appear ?

Or worse—does! Attempts vainly to excuse any complicity by finding comfort wrapping themselves in cotton wool—including eyes and ears. Oh, and nose!

Old chinese saying: He who would seek revenge need dig 2 graves.

Who bombed the WTC? Not to sound disrespectful, but who the fuck cares? Who bombed Kabul? Who bombed Kosovo? Who bombed Baghdad? Newsflash—honestly the whole world is sick of hearing about it already—bunch of cry-babies. Who killed Princess Diana? She did.

Yes, yes—take refuge in aliens, or paint your tits, it's all the same. U.F.O.s—HAHAHA They're all built in the good ole US of fucken A. And I ain't even goin' to tell you what the whole world already knows that you don't—what that A stands for. Now before ya'll go accusing me of being anti-american or some bull-shit, know some of my, aarrgh fuck-it—all dead, by their own stupidity.

That godamn 'craft I wuz raving 'bout earlier—yeah, yeah—the B-2 Spirit Stealth. The cost of each aircraft averaged US$737 million in 1997 dollars. Total procurement costs averaged US$929 million per aircraft, which includes spare parts, equipment, retrofitting, and software support.The total program cost, which includes development, engineering and testing, averaged US$2.1 billion per aircraft (in 1997 dollars). So what's that in today's fiscal terms? A $Trillion? Now apart from those shot down violating air-space (Yes, anyone can be got to—anywhere), one of them crashed disintegrating upon takeoff in 2008—haha Jesus, that 1 alone, with interest might've solved Amerika's woes—no? Whad-da-I-know? I ain't no godamn economist. They're all so fucken brilliant—aren't they? Einsteins, the whole freakin' lot of them!

Now if we're to believe anything on the web—then all that particulate uranium aerosol dust blowin' right back at yah across the Pacific, re-bottled for your children's lunches into no-less than 50 brand-named en-riched tasty beverages .. ahh, yum! For all you non-religious types who have difficulty believing—haha, who have substituted Science and economics for truth, as exemplified in nature—let me try and teach you something. Karma's a bitch—baby! You've invoked her anyway—fools from her slumber, and now she will AWAKE YOU!

Call her by her ancient name if you like—Shiva / Kali, goddess of destruction—or not. Doesn't really matter. She'll call you .. anyway—out.

Apologies if I've unintentionally offended anyone: nuthin' personal, merely talkin' to 290 million amerikaans, and maybe the odd Brit. By way of disclaimer—this is what happens when I DON'T drink, and type.

Word Verification: Google — really !!!

Pangolin said...

Hmm, very long and complex post there. It doesn't help me that I was "beaten with the Jesus stick" as I say it by an upstanding member of the Church of England. The whack-job in question later got some other Anglican whack-jobs to declare him a bishop of the same church.

Let me just say that if you knew some of the crimes this man committed you'd hang him from the nearest tree or wall him up in the corner of a basement...."with a cask of amontillado."

In an oddly perverse twist on reality I just started a new blog...The Cannibal Horde Recipe Book in order to burn off some of my more dystopian frustrations with the human race. It's meant to be satirical.

Evil? Evil is the refusal to act on good information. You know another person's pain is exactly the same as your own yet you discount it. We all do. That's evil.

v-word: vatersho

Pangolin said...

Hey guys. There's this study on Montana deer with um, deformed, um, parts.... here.

v-word: oupers, I swear!!

rockpicker said...

Speaking of evil...


I think Fulford's ninjas are finally on the move.

Pangolin said...

Rockpicker_That's just normal housecleaning. When one of them shows signs of growing a conscience and talks to his mistress about ethics or something they plug them before they can go on-the-record somewhere were it will get out.

Why anybody at that level still flies in small planes is a mystery to me but they do. They also suffer an oddly high incidence of cabin pressure malfunctions.

v-word:kingl, appropriate at the death of a corporate knight. I wonder who was in check?

rockpicker said...

"...I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return..."

W. H Auden
1st September, 1939

I think to understand the nature of evil, and it's role in human events, requires, not only a grasp of historical knowledge, but a consensus of acknowledged 'facts.'
Without a common agreement about what happened, who did what, etc., all discussion is conjecture.

Evil, averse to light, long ago embraced deceit. By not being what it appears to be, it enjoys stature and mobility.

Like a puff of smoke on a grassy knoll, it wafts off into the collective uncertainty, unexamined
and forgotten.

Or, when hounds get near, it staffs its own tribunal, as Vladimir said, "the best way to control one's opposition is to lead it."

I can understand your reluctance to wade into the swamp of 9/11, Belgium. But I will use it as an example here. How will it be taught as history to future generations? Will Americans be taught one history, and the rest of the world assume a totally different story? I read recently that only 7% of Americans even know that WTC7 fell on 9/11. And now we have definitive proof that all three buildings were brought down by explosives, so, wtf?

The administration and the press use the myth to justify further detestable action in the Mid East. Karma keeps piling.

Lies ignored corrode the souls of men and nations, both.


Anonymous said...

From Belgium

Well everybody so far is presenting a further aspect of it. This is fantastic.

Fa No I am not a card carrying member of the C of E. Interestingly over here in Belgium nearly all churches are Catholic but about half are dedicated to Jesus and the rest to the Virgin Mary (OLV – Onze Lieve Vrouw) and you can take your pick. Not entirely sure about the waves of good on one shore and waves of evil on another but deliberately doing harm and not caring is quite another. We sometiles hear stories of birds not going near a satanic ritual site so maybe? Munitions factory huh; one of the stories I came across in the banality thing but didn’t include was about a male and female bomb loaders on US planes in Iraq who fell in love and got married. The article was entitled “Honey pass the Bombs”. Wrt other animals, I saw a programme about wolves and the young contender challenged the boss dog and finished getting shunned from the pack to wander alone. Was this evil or just survival of the fittest?


“maybe they don't. why? because B, there is no dif!! i've made it my concern to know this.” Can you tell us more?

Once you start banning books no matter however crazy they are then you are on the top of the slippery slope. Apart from anything else, who does the deciding?

Yes, Susan was indeed Bryce Taylor. Funny how similar minds gravitate to the same reading material, what a horror story. For anybody else interested in knowing more it is referenced in the Sources.

I will send the full hit to anybody who wants it but my Telenet e-mail client is crap and very unpredictable, better get it from the Murphs as an attachment.


Sympathies – was it a Jesuit school – those guys have some very special techniques which are all their own.

Rp, Oh I agree


rockpicker said...

Divining the nature of evil reminds me of collecting slugs among wet carrot tops, or finding truth itself.

I offer three easy pieces as illustration.




As always, each of us needs to reset our weird-shitometers, from time to time, and keep those moral compasses handy.

Baz said...

Rockpicker and Oldensoul garden in Montana: Freakin' beautiful—baby! Reminds me of somethin' from The Lord of the Rings. Serene peaceful Maze / Hobbit—like. Sometimes I can forget the ... goodness, right at the back door. Home/made bread, garden produce—fruit of YOUR OWN labor. Confess—catholic. Not really, but universal and therefore catholic in being exposed to the sheer weight / volume of evil surrounding me in TV—Fox News / Aljazeera News, Internet, married with my own experience. Truly narcotic. Result—narcosis. Anvil of Evil. A shoe was lost for want of a nail, then a rider ...

Palooka's Revenge said...

B... certainly didn't mean to imply arendt's book or any book for that matter should be banned. as for her argument, it suggests the greater responsibility of one is to another of greater power or sway or control or position. we can chase this tangent all the way back to our discussions we've had about freedom and free will from time to time. it presupposes hierarchy as a fundamental reality that trumps freedom and thus, would certainly trump the lieutenet's mother's argument. kinda ironic eh since freedom is supposedly what her son was being charged by order to go off and fight for.

as for saying more on saying there's no dif between the christian god and lucy? i could say alot but many could and have said it better than me. mf, for example, has already gone on record here with his read on it.

its a loooooooong story and ultimately can only go to subjective interpretation. and IS a slippery slope the bottom of which can never be reached without going all the way back to the beginning and examining original casualities. which is, of course, what the religions claim to do. go back to the original creations. much of those religions are likewise interpretations and every damn one of them have a dark side to them. why is this?

whatever i say i preface w/notice... ALERT, ALERT! time to turn on your own personal shit-o-meters cuz what i'm about to say you may have never heard before. i used the term 'dark side' only because evil and what we take to be evil is generally referred to as such by the masses. this is a misunderstanding. understanding is... evil, as a state of energy, for the most part, IS light. iow, light that went out from the godhead. BUT, it is god in a state of denial. which is to say light in a state of denial. thus, actually unloving light (UL). literally! or, lost light (LL). light lost to loving light. and often the very brightest, harshest, fastest light. loving light also being from the godhead of course as the godhead is the "source" of all light. has been ever since it lit up eons ago.

this UL/LL includes that lucifer feller you referred to. and his minions. very real chit btw. but not limited to these entities as manifestations of UL. manifestation is not limited to physical body. there are many forms of UL and religions serve these forms. consciously? as a collective, probably not. but suffice to say that religions are infiltrated by evil forces that are manifest. indeed, some of the individuals within the heirarchies ARE these forms. but more often, individual manifested spirits, including the leaders and the followers, are 'holding' UL within the vessel, the body politic, that they are. so, many different things are going on here not the least of which is that love itself, for the most part, is completly misunderstood and misinterpretated.

now, i can say more about this and perhaps as possibilities you're never heard before but for now i'll just leave it at that and leave you with this... consciousness is only half the receipe. what's the other half? let me put it this way: if there's anything to what i said about there being a dif between loving light and unloving light, how do we tell the dif? which leads to the next obvious question, how do we as individuals bring unloving light back inside of love and/or how do we release it from our magnetic centers?

Anonymous said...

I LOVED that scene in "Good Will Hunting!"

I don't know... but it seems to me that evil is something that develops in a person by way of parents and environment. I don't think Dick Cheney became totally super-dooper evil when he was born (Ok, maybe he was), but most people aren't born to hate, be biggoted, or do harm to others. A lot of what shapes us is our parents and the environment we grow up in.

Case in point, my sister-in-law is an absolute bitch. Geez, how did she become such a bitch? Well, I met her mother and .... Oh, and now the daughter is becoming just like her -and her grandmother (my brother has no backbone). Anyway, if you observe bitchy, nasty actions, it's all in response to wants and desires. These people want to be rich, powerful, controlling, etc. and they've must have been taught that these desires are the end-all, be-all of all things AND any way they can get the things they desire is ok: the end justifys the means.

It seems like Murika's sole idiology is the pursuit of money and power. If your not a good consumer, purchasing boats, big-ass BFT's and striving for more money to buy more and bigger stuff, well, you're just not a good Murikan. The attitude of non-ambitious, non-greedy, non-super achiever is considered a looser mentality.

So, what kind of society has Murika become? I think it has become a corrupt, greedy and yes, evil country. Hell, for the past 60 years, this country has been attacking, destabilizing and murdering other countries for money and power.

Oh, and I have to add... another reason Murika attacked Iraq -Israel told us to. And they're now beating the war drums for us to attack Iran.


We are so doomed!


murph said...


Noticed you brought back the Genetic/environment controversy concerning how a person turns out in their life.

The problem with either stance is the examples that don't fit. ie, the loving good parents that have to deal with a cruel spiteful progeny. Or the cruel spiteful parents that turn out a loving self actuated progeny.

Maybe a combination of both? Or some other determiner that we haven't identified yet? I doubt that the cause/effect question has actually be resolved yet, and maybe never will be.

In our civilization we tend toward a very mechanistic view of the universe, everything has a causality and effect. That stance has served us reasonably well except for the exceptions which we tend to discount for lack of data. The physical sciences struggle to understand and explain the universe right down to the sub atomic levels, and always with the idea that there is a systematic and mechanistic explanation of all events if we only had enough data. This is so pervasive in our thinking that any consideration outside of that is immediately discounted. Just try and imagine a completely random universe, including how people operate and think. Almost every observation we make in the physical world contradicts this. However, it seems to me that adopting this as an absolute might be a mistake. In any case, keep our options open for consideration.

rockpicker said...

Ponerology is the study of evil. Here's a short video introduction.


And here's an interview with Andrew M. Lobaczewski, who worked as a psychologist in Poland during the cold war.

Murph, he has some interesting things to say about psychopathy and brain anatomy.


rockpicker said...

Oh boy, boys and girls! This just in. Take a look at the top story on Cryptogon today.

Oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy!

freeacre said...

I am continually amazed by the level of thought and discourse shared around this campfire.
A shout out to ras - hope you are feeling better, Darlin.' And, your girlfriend, too.
Rockpicker, we watched a movie last night called "Impact" that was of questionable production value, but it had some special effects that I think you would enjoy. Showed gravity radically effected and static charges going off all over, and people and cars and trains and stuff levitating into the air due to the moon getting hit with a brown dwarf and screwing with electro-magnetism big time. Closest thing I've seen yet that portrays some of the possibilities of an electronic universe. Pretty fun.
Speaking of energy, I actually feel better since doing a little Qgong (sorta like Tai Chi) exercise the last couple of days. Seem to have released much of the pain somehow.
Randy - I'm with you on appreciating that quote from "Good Will Hunting." Best thing in the whole movie.
Took me five hours to download that one hour presentation about the bases on Mars. And, the guy rambled on about the 50's for the first twenty minutes. Interesting pictures, but something about the guy seems off to me. I find Project Camelot stuff 50% fascinating and 50% annoying, personally. HPH cautions that one new way TPTB will manipulate us into even more division will be to encourage a new "us" against "them" that will be the "I'm worthy to be saved by the aliens" vs. those considered "unworthy." I'm more advance, morally superior, have more alien DNA, etc., etc. Oh, brother... here we go again.
Palooka - I don't think it could have been the same church. Ours was all about unconditional love. Church of Religious Science. I still appreciate a lot of it, especially the metaphysics and openness to all sorts of schools of thought and tribal traditions. I still like the idea of "the divine fabric of the Universe." I just became annoyed because some of the Big Name leaders seemed to be caught up in making lots of bucks selling "Abundance" workshops that seemed steeped in runaway thoughtless consumerism.
Belgium, HALF the Catholic churches devoted to Mary rather than Jesus??? That's amazing to me. Never heard of it before.
I'd like to go to the coast and just breath some salty air and watch the waves...

rockpicker said...

Alert! Please check this out.


Palooka's Revenge said...

Church of Religious Science. that was it. i did a google. kennedy shultz, now deceased, founded the atlanta church. could i be mistaken on what he said? nope. i'll never forget walkin out that day cuz every eye in the place was on me including his. i was pretty close to the front too and on my feet and out the door the minute the words left his mouth. this was early 90's. i heard later he became the national whatever of the church. maybe pres of the int center for spiritual living.

science of mind. addressing one half of the receipe.

freeacre said...

Have you guys all seen the Redding woman's YouTube rant against Bank of America and their usurious credit card policies? I hope this is the beginning of a trend:
http://www.redding.com/news/2009/sep/17/red-bluff-woman-launches-credit-card-revolt/ Right On, Sister!

Palooka - hummm. I was a Practitioner in that church for twelve years, and I never heard of the guy. But, yeah, nobody has all of it. That's why we all share our own truths and maybe more will be revealed. Unconditional love is stressed in most of the churches, anyway. I know because I struggled against the concept of "we are all One" for years because, you know, I wanted to consider myself better than most. lol
We've had the nicest treat lately. A doe and her two fawns seem to be hanging around our house. They slowly left our yard and walked across the street to a neighbor's the other day. Turned and looked at me for a long time. Lots of tracks all over in our yard and driveway. Very peaceful.

freeacre said...

Well, folks, if they begin the mandatory swine flu checkpoint stops and all that, I hope you have food and supplies saved up to be able to at least attempt a self-quarantine. If not, perhaps consider a trip to Costco to get stuff and put it on a credit card. (Note credit card revolt link.) All I know is that we aren't going to submit to it. No way, no how. Hopefully, we'll all get through this, but if not, we'll see you on the other side at a perfect trout stream on the astral plane.

RAS said...

FA, thanks for asking. She's getting around better and I'm feeling a bit better, aside from being exhausted after working so much. I'll have put in well upwards of 50 hours this week, all told, after tomorrow. I'm *tired* and I want out of this hell hole. (Can I say that over the internet at work?) Oh well...I have to get up at 7 in the morning, after working until midnight, to drive her to the orthopedist since she can't drive yet. I don't mind but I don't want to lose the sleep. Then I have to clean a house tomorrow afternoon and be back here at 4. Grr...

My manuscript should have been delivered by now. It's irrevocable at this point. Okay, it has been for a week and more, but still.

On to the subject(s) at hand, it's been my observation that at least half of ALL Catholic churches are devoted to Mary instead of Jesus. The Church is very polytheistic and has more than a few Goddess-leaning worshippers.

As to evil, I've thought about that a lot. I think evil requires both knowledge and intent. If you deliberately kill someone not in self-defense or for some other valid reason, then that can be evil. But if you do it accidentally, then it's not. Does that make any sense?

freeacre said...

I think intent is a significant aspect when evaluating evil.
Here's another sobering example of evil - modern slavery. Read this:

murph said...


Read the article of the interview of Lobaczewski.

Are you familiar with Lamarkian psychology and philosophy? Came out of Russia some time ago. This area of thought says that you can change genes by changing behavior. ie, an animal reaching to ever greater heights browsing the trees will change the genes to make longer necks (the giraffe). I read some time ago about multiple animal experiments in Russia around this idea. The ideas was applied to human psychology.

While not stated directly, he does talk about gene control of psychopathy.

Not sure how I want to deal with his ideas.

Pangolin said...

Murph_ The term you seem to be looking for is epigenetics.

It explains thing like why third generation Chinese and Japanese in the US are as tall as everybody else. It's not unreasonable to hypothesize that combinations of genes and environmental modifiers can travel two or three generations without changes in the underlying genes.

It is possible to have a cheerful basset hound and a lazy, sleepy queensland; just not likely. Strict genetic determinism is an inadequate model.

rockpicker said...

Hello in there...


rockpicker said...

What's this country under pandemic threat?

One flu, over the cuckoo's nest, of course.


freeacre said...

"One flu over the cuckoo's nest.." HAHAHAHAHAHA! Thanks! I needed that.
We finally broke down a bought some nice squash grown in the valley and brought in by a farmer. Been baking, mashing, and freezing Hubbard and Pink tube squash to last the winter. Putting the smaller ones in our buried garbage can with hay for a make-shift root cellar. Two of the four pullets are finally laying these cute little eggs. The older ones are molting and there are feathers all over the place. Got to feed them higher protein so their feathers grow in faster and they don't freeze their little butts off.
It feels like we are in a sort of holding pattern until we see if this flu bullshit is going to actually jump off or when the next economic shoe drops or Israel goes completely batshit. Until then, it looks like we are going to get another warm week. Might actually get some ripe tomatoes!
One day at a time...

rockpicker said...

Almost equinox, and we just had our first real frost in southwest Montana.

I've lived here since 1970 and never seen so long a growing season.

We spent the weekend canning--pickles,peaches,chokecherry jelly, peach butter and salsa. Pulled a bunch of squash last night before covering-up. Just a light dusting. We bought a roll of row cover that's like soft olefin. It's supposed to keep temps a little bit elevated, in cases of light frost. We'll see what things look like later on today.

freeacre said...

...peach butter, chokecherry jelly, pickles, et al - boy, that all sounds good! Canning is difficult for me. My stuff often does not set up right. I need someone who knows what they are doing to show me how, I guess.Re your growing season - maybe Universe is making up for what what done to you last year.
Urban Survival has disturbing info today. He has a link to a Lakota Nation site that reports that they are being poisoned in Canada by flu vaccine. When they asked for support kits, like hand washing supplies, all they got were body bags.

rockpicker said...

Round and round the mulberry bush...


rockpicker said...

15 quakes in the last two days at dead-on 10 km depth. Is that normal?


Pangolin said...

Rockpicker_ The depth could just be a default setting on the reporting site when they don't have enough data to determing depth.

Fifteen quakes in ten days isn't bad in some areas of California so it may be like that elsewhere.

If it was nuclear testing that's far deeper than reasonably needed to contain a blast. Also, nobody needs that much data on nuclear weapons with computer modeling now.

Quite the mystery.

rockpicker said...


Here's the link. Check it out for yourself.


Palooka's Revenge said...

Is that normal?

pretty much. cal shakers are notoriously shallow.


thats only a 7 day list but one can check this periodicaly and find similar data.

and then, in this day where conflicting data can always be found there's this...

Using a tomographic technique he developed to analyze seismic data from 37,000 earthquakes in southern California since 1981, Zhou has produced 3-D images of the subsurface which show that the maximum depth of the quakes varies widely both along and across the faults.


i've never seen zhou's data but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

freeacre said...

Hey, Palooka & ras (and anyone else in the S.E. who attends the Campfire)- hope you are safe in all the rain. What's going on with you guys?

Anonymous said...

From Belgium

Have you guys seen these two videos? The second is linked from the first. Forced vaccinations are already taking place in Alaska. Has anybody heard a word from Ms Palin on the subject?


And the contents of the vaccine are:-


On a personal note I went to the University Hospital today for a follow up lung function test following the pneumonia last year and the doctor there said my lung capacity had reduced by half a litre over six months which was significant even though I now feel better than ever. I hadn’t been following their program because I felt better and all the things the house doctor gave me were wrong even though I feel better as a result. So they have changed my medication. Whilst there I was offered a prescription for the Mexican flu shot to be administered by my own doctor. When I nearly had apoplexy they backed off on that one but offered a seasonal flu shot in its place. The lady wife who does really want the best for me was all for it so I took the paper they offered. I have never had a flu shot in my life before and been none the worse for it. Thinking about it on the way out the seasonal variety is a hit and miss affair of trying to guess the most virulent strain this year that will be the most active next year. Over the last few years the drug companies have actually got it wrong. Not only that but it is highly likely to be manufactured by Baxter and it makes no sense at all for them to make a lethal dose for one strain of flu and a total cure for another. Most likely it is all the same stuff. Now, said lady wife has gone to bed all hurt because she thinks I don’t love her enough to care about myself. Oh dear!

It really is hard bringing people who don’t understand these things along with you without sounding like a total crank case. What was that again about little lies and big lies? Better wait for people to start dropping like flies before it comes over their event horizon but there again, if it’s not reported how will anyone know?

stoney13 said...

Evil? simple! To take delight or joy in causing pain and death to your fellow beings is what is evil in my book.

Spanish Inquisition? Evil!

Any and ALL governments that utilize fear and torture to rule? Evil!

Hunting for food, ONLY, and giving respect to the spirit of your prey who has given his, or her life so you can survive? NOT Evil!

Shooting something just to have a head to hang on the wall? Evil!

Likewise, proceeding with an act which is destructive of our Mother The Earth, even though you may receive some short term profit? Evil!

Why? Simple! If you willfully poison the water and air for every single being on this planet, while you receive delight, and joy from your profits, than that act is Evil!

However if you live well upon the Earth and use her resources wisely, and have care for what you use? Not Evil!

I guess it's all in your point of view as to what is good and evil.

Tom Delay dancing with Cheryl Burke to "Wild Thing" on national television where children can see it? Now THAT'S EVIL!!!

RAS said...

Fa, all's well here except for all the rain. We haven't flood yet, but it keeps trying in a lot of places around here. My garden is really waterlogged.

Stoney -you have my complete agreement!

Palooka's Revenge said...

we're high n dry in the upper reaches of our ground zero water shed which is pretty topo protected. its creek runs on backside of our property but house is 200' from it and 17' above the 500 year mark. creek did get well above its 100 year mark though. we could stand 5 times the rain probably and the 10 acre lake about 1/2 mile above us w/earthen damn could let go and i'm confident we'd still be fine. just too much real estate to spread out onto. driveway of neighbor on other side of the creek was 2' under. mostly cuz they did the culverts wrong when they built the drive across the creek.

metro area hasn't fared so well. specially the west side. 9 dead i think which is low considering the devastation. I-20 west still under water. I-285 just re-opened this eve. I-575 earlier today. hundreds of secondary roads still closed. atl water trtmt plant severly damaged and dumping millions of gallons of raw sewage into the 'hooch. lake allatoona, secondary water supply, is 9 feet above summer pool and still rising. main supply lanier still 4' below summer pool. thats the one that was over 20' down a year ago and still listed as under drought conditions a month ago. we've gone from drought to flood in about a week. some of the little local creeks that might run 2 - 3' normal were up well over 25'. it was a big one. thx for asking FA... p

freeacre said...

ras & Palooka - Thanks for letting us know. I gotta a candle and incense lit for you and yours. You stay high and dry. Happy Equinox. It's starting out with a bang, eh?

Something seems a little off with that vaccine report from Alaska. For one thing, it was dated in August. I don't think they had any vaccine available in August. At least no H1N1 vaccine. I picked up some Vitamin D today just to be on the safe side. Multiple articles on the vaccine on the Rense site. Sarah Palin, by the way, Belgium, has resigned from her position as governor. I think she's going to become a game show host or something... a career for which she is eminently suited. They could call it, "Who Wants to Be a Moron?"

rockpicker said...

This guy started Oathkeepers.


rockpicker said...

Remember the guy the FBI chased down and caught in L.A. awhile back for supposedly threatening the President?

Well, maybe he deserves a medal.



Anonymous said...

I think Palin and Glen Beck are going to have an affair and eventually team-up to become the rulers of "Glenbeckistan" which will include the Midwest, the South, the Southwest and Mountain states with Salt Lake City being the capitol.






Anonymous said...

Hey Belgium,

What's the scoop here?


Last Updated on Wednesday, 23 September 2009 09:16
Wednesday, 23 September 2009 09:00

News - Highlighted News

Next >

The Belgian parliament yesterday voted to give the government emergency dicatorial powers under the pretext of dealing with a pandemic emergency.

Belgium is the first country in Europe to formally suspend democracy and civic rights and to switch over to military rule under the authority of a "a special crisis committee" that answers ultimately to WHO and the UN.

WHO declared a pandemic emergency level 6 in June over the "swine flu" pandemic, allowing governments to activate "emergency measures" that suspend the operation of normal government and justice.

Earlier this summer, the Belgian Health Minister Laurette Onkelinx passed a decree allowing the police to be detailed to participate in "medical emergencies" on the mass vaccination and quarantine of the population.



Anonymous said...

Hey Belgium,

What's the scoop here?


Last Updated on Wednesday, 23 September 2009 09:16
Wednesday, 23 September 2009 09:00

News - Highlighted News

Next >

The Belgian parliament yesterday voted to give the government emergency dicatorial powers under the pretext of dealing with a pandemic emergency.

Belgium is the first country in Europe to formally suspend democracy and civic rights and to switch over to military rule under the authority of a "a special crisis committee" that answers ultimately to WHO and the UN.

WHO declared a pandemic emergency level 6 in June over the "swine flu" pandemic, allowing governments to activate "emergency measures" that suspend the operation of normal government and justice.

Earlier this summer, the Belgian Health Minister Laurette Onkelinx passed a decree allowing the police to be detailed to participate in "medical emergencies" on the mass vaccination and quarantine of the population.



Anonymous said...

From Belgium,

This is news to me Randy, there was nothing about it on the VTM news this evening. You bet I am going to find out more about it. The Lisbon treaty gives "Europe" similar powers to the Military Commissions Act but this move was totally unexpected. I will ask around and get back to you.

VW exedusn

Anonymous said...

From Belgium

FA. USA population 340 million.
Population of Alaska 0.7 million and it is semi contained. Maybe there was that much ready in August but I am not sure. Maybe it makes sense to do the pilot run there.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium

Yes it is true, measures were put in place in June for such a move. They say they expect one third of the population to become sick between October and December and those in control have the authority to close down schools, call people to vaccination centres in hospitals, redirect the work force etc etc. It would seem that now people have put this at the back of their mind they didn't need reminding about it.

Even though we have Lisbon I was expecting things to happen first in the US but it looks like it is coordinated. Surprisingly, "Statewatch" is very quiet about the whole thing. Now I really am getting worried. Boy oh boy!

VW munne (who writes these things)

Zoner said...

Glad to hear the waters have spared our SE Campfire attendees.

So sorry to hear about the destruction and loss of life.

Be well, all.


WV; reakingu

rockpicker said...


As I recall, Tweitmeyer made mention that it was a surprise to see forty or so quakes at 10.0 km depth for an entire year, (last). We're having that many every week now. And not all in s. ca. The hottest place for 10.0 km depth this summer has been Qinghai, China.

My condolences on the rain. Although, returning to full pool must be some sort of silver lining, eh?

Palooka's Revenge said...

rp... 40 is nothing. they have that many and more at the geisers every week. most less than 5 km.

yes, silver lining. and another bounty from the flood are the chantarelles. poppin up all over. yum! i'll send you some pix FA.

more thoughts on the nature of evil...

Prozac: 20 mg, Consumer price (100 tablets) : $247.47
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.11
Percent markup: 224,973%

Xanax: 1 mg, Consumer price
(100 tablets): $136.79
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.024
Percent markup: 569,958%

rockpicker said...

Palooka; To be clear, I'm looking at only quakes claimed to be measured at exactly 10.0km depth.

Pick any other number and see how many you find, per day, per week, whatever.

I think there's something fishy going on.


Zoner said...

Beloved fellow campfire folk, The family and I are heading out on an emergency cross-country trip to be at the side of mrs. Z's ailing father, and if I may be so bold to ask, could those so inclined appeal to whatever you may appeal to and ask that our journey (and his) be tended by compassion and love?

This isn't the road trip as I had envisioned it, but I am reminded that my designs on things can often be overruled by forces working a bigger picture.

I have come to value the virtual relationships I have made here and wanted you all to know how much I value this place - that is why I feel safe putting this out there knowing it will be received in the manner intended. I guess it will provide incentive to write at my blog again, as we get a chance to see some more of the country and tell a story along the way.

Much love to you all, and thanks for everything!


WV; forcedet. Ugh.

rockpicker said...


We'll keep you and yours in our thoughts. If you come through Montana, you're welcome to stop here.
Freeacre has my email address.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium

Ditto Zoner although I think Belgium is a good country to steer clear of just at the moment. Our thoughts are with Mrs Z, such a long journey at a time of stress can be fraught and of course we all hope for a good outcome with her family. Keep us informed.

On a different subject I have just listened to Ahmadinejad’s address to the United Nations. He might be regarded as a nutter in some quarters but I could not find a single thing he said to take exception to. Both the US and Israel made a big show of walking out at an early stage but I don’t think they were missed. Sometimes common sense comes shining through and sometimes the mighty have their noses put on their own hypocrisy. All stirring stuff but will it make a difference, one can only hope.

uncuga said...

Still here, still a faithful reader, but not a good writer, so not so much a contributor. You asked about the rain and flooding. I live about 65 miles south of Atlanta and we didn't have any serious problems, but some of the counties around us did. And the Macon paper reported today that the levee on the Ocmulgee River, which flows through the city, is threatened. They were badly flooded several years ago, and caskets from the cemetery went floating down the river. Hope they can get this under control before the rain starts again in a day or two.

freeacre said...

Nice to hear from you, uncuga, thanks for checking in. Didn't know you live around Atlanta.

Since you asked for some supportive appeals to the Spirits, Zoner, I hope you don't mind if I do an old-fashioned treatment, like I usually do when I light my candles for people.

There is one omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent One,
Who is the Creator of All That Is. Each of us is an individualized expression of this vast and Holy One. To the extent that we know it to be true, our Word is powerful...

I speak my Word for the protection and well-being of all of us who attend this circle. Several of us are experiencing challenges of weather or circumstance. I declare that the way is made straight to our greatest good and there is nothing to fear. I know that you look into our hearts and know that we are good and very good. I ask that our feet do not stray from the path that is the right one for us. I give it unto Spirit to turn our fears and pain into love and freedom. I ask for and accept with gratitude any and all help and support from any helpful entities looking in from different planes. We are on an adventure of experience and transformation with the intention of creating a better life in harmony with the earth and all of her children. We are grateful for any and all help with our efforts

I release this appeal to Holy Spirit and am grateful that it is so.


rockpicker said...


RAS said...

Zoner, love and peace go with you on your journey. Whatever the outcome, may the Spirits hold you close.

Firemates, I have a shot at another job I interview for yesterday. It's at another non-profit but it is full-time and a day job. But get this: they want me to come in and volunteer for two weeks before they decide whether or not to offer me the job. Basically, I get to do the job for free for half a month. Grr.

freeacre said...

This is just musing regarding your circumstances, ras. This is not advise...
Sometimes a job is worth doing because it needs to be done. It's something that you want to do, or at least it feels right to do it. Maybe because it's making a contribution that you want to make or maybe it's the people that you work with that you like. It this looks like it might be that kind of job, you could give it all you've got and see how it feels. It it doesn't feel right, you don't have to stay the two weeks. After all, you are evaluating the job and them as much as they are evaluating you. You can walk out anytime and tell them to sit on it and spin if you feel like it.
But, on the other hand, if it feels good and you are willing to do it for free, then they'd be nuts not to offer you the job, I would reckon.
You gotta admit that it's interesting grist for the mill.

stoney13 said...

The rain finally stopped, and yesterday was the first dry day we've had in over a week!

Hendersonville got some flooding, but since Hendersonville started out as a big mountain bog, every time it rains, it tries to return to that state of being!

Nothing like "Six Flags Under Water" Georgia got hit pretty hard!

I'm up on the side of a hill, and the nearest river is Green River which runs through a 300 foot deep gorge, so it will have to be something of biblical proportion before our feet get wet!

Glad everybody at the campfire made it through safely!

Palooka's Revenge said...


Palooka's Revenge said...

rp... sorry bro, i was on a dif page. obvious to all but me. ya, i'd have to agree, beyond the ordinary.

uncuga... macon me old stompin ground and still have many friends there. where exactly are you?

all... more on the nature of evil...

Claritin:10 mg
Consumer Price (100 tablets): $215.17
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.71
Percent markup: 30,306%

Prilosec: 20 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $360.97
Cost of general active ingredients $0.52
Percent markup: 69,417%

RAS said...

FA, yes I'm going. It's a good job, and it will help us get out of here that much faster. I think I'll get it.

Anonymous said...


Last Updated on Thursday, 24 September 2009 20:53
Thursday, 24 September 2009 20:21

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The Belgian newspaper "Le Soir" has attacked the decision by the Belgian government to give sweeping “special powers” to a crisis committee established to oversee the “pandemic emergency” for six months or until July 2010 at the latest.

The special powers allow a small group of ministers and the King of Belgium to bypass parliament and enact any law that they consider “necessary” to deal with the pandemic emergency, such as compelling nurses and police to carry out forced vaccinations.

A comment from Le Soir newspaper appeared today, 24 September 2009, on page 3 under the pen name of Ricardo Gutièrrez, saying that the Belgian people were far more concerned by the arsenal of “special powers” that the federal government was deploying than by the “pandemic” itself.

It is stated that French health professionals last Wednesday demanded “scientific proof” that the “swine flu” vaccine is necessary and not dangerous, especially to pregnant women and young children.

Georges-Henri Beauthier, a lawyer acting on behalf of concerned citizen groups, is preparing to send a nine page letter to all the members of the federal parliament informing them of the risks associated with the vaccine, especially with adjuvants.

Beauthier said that politicians were reacting to a very “theoretical” risk by passing measures detrimental to civic rights.

In another interview in Le Soir, the lawyers Ines Wouters, an expert in human rights, and Philippe Vanlangendonck, an expert in medical law, said there is no justification for the suspension of Parliament in Belgium under the pretext of a pandemic emergency.

“We can see no reason in the actual circumstances today to turn Belgium virtually into a kind of dictatorship,” Wouters said.

Vanlangendonck said that there was no reason to transfer powers from parliament to an executive when all institutions were functioning, and when parliament had just been recalled, medical professionals were working efficiently and the economy had not been noticeably affected by the pandemic.

Wouters said that the government was trying to give a legal basis to illegal decisions to distribute anti viral medicines in April that have not been properly licensed.

In a hard hitting interview on Belgian TV on Tuesday with the the Belgian Health Minister Laurette Onkelinx, a Belgian reporter called the decision by the public health committee to give "super powers" to an executive and suspend parliament to deal with a pandemic was "disproportionate" in view of the fact that there were only 6,000 cases of mild swine flu in the country so far and no sign of a catasrophe.

Onkelinx replied that it was a "necessary evil."

"I don't like [imposing mlitary rule] at all," she said. "But it's indispensable."

She also said people who claimed the "swine flu" vaccine was dangerous were "crazy" , arguing it would only be given if approved by the European Medicines Agency - but as the agency itself states in its own documents, the safety of the vaccine will not be proven before it is given to people in the biggest "experiment" in history.

Anonymous said...

From Belgium

Many thanks for that anon 11 10 the original article posted here earlier by Randy which I have already passed on to others I could not find the original source for. Which ever way I tried to track it down it came back to a semi official looking doc in French but I couldn’t find the people who posted it so I was beginning to wonder today. If Onkelinx has given a public interview over it then it has been “Officially Announced”. One way or another it is still a disgrace. I must admit that even though I try to keep up to date this move flat footed me. There again Belgium is the home of the EU and NATO so we have to let these brass hats feel important.

rockpicker said...

Belgium; Thanks for the update. Here is a link to Jane Burgermeister's reconstructed website. Apparently, she's giving a talk tomorrow.

If any of you don't know who she is, or what she's done, there is an interview with her conducted by Bill Ryan posted on the projectcamelot.org website.

rockpicker said...

Damn. Hate it when I do that.


Uncuga said...

We live on a farm in Upson County, outside of Thomaston. I moved down here from Atlanta in 1984. Love country living, don't love Thomaston. Never knew much about Macon until my dad moved there after Mother died. Now I know lots of Macon's octa- and nonagenerians. We can't get the AJC in Thomaston anymore so I subscribe to the macon paper, and boy, it's a hoot. The "letters" page is priceless. I'm sure there must be some independent thinkers somewhere around here, but I haven't found any yet. At least not south of Pike County.