Friday, September 23, 2011


HSW calls this the circle of everything

from Murph

Upon investigation, the term middle class is a real tough definition. We tend to want to define it in terms of income. That is not complete because a $30 -$50 grand income supports very large variables in standards of living, depending on where you are locating that income. Manhattan and $50 grand income is nothing. In Podunk city a $50 grand income is indeed upper middle class. I think that middle class should be defined as the amount of income left over after a very basic cost of living, and that does not include a 3000 sq ft house in the burbs with a BMW in the driveway. It seems that when distributed across the US, middle class is commonly accepted as incomes anywhere from $50 grand a year to $100 grand a year.

I did a bit of poking around and the difference in definitions of middle class is spectacular. Industrial countries all define it different. But it appears to me that it is mostly dependent on the amount of stuff you can buy over and above basic median living costs of the area you are living in.

So how does middle class life style show up in job demographics? After perusing government stats and several papers on the subject, I have to conclude that for the most part, middle class jobs consist of what we call white collar jobs, that is, jobs that make nothing and mostly consist of paper and computer work and supervisory positions. Parts of the health care areas that are middle class and several other areas are exceptions to that.

It appears that the most meaningful demographics on middleclass indicate that it comprises about 30%-50% of the working part of society.

Now what got me started on this is that for the last several years’ economic commentaries from a variety of authors are bemoaning the decrease in the amount of middle class households. Other than the idea that middle class incomes are the mainstay of government taxes and support of the consumer society, they haven’t much else to say on the subject. Oh the poor middle class, they are disappearing and it’s all the fault of government taxation and confiscation of wealth that class had accumulated. Bull shit!

There have been several periods in this country when the middle class had heavily invested in stocks and commodities through various means and that was where a lot of their wealth was centered. Direct buying into stocks and things like 401K investments. In what appears to me as a valid perspective on that; it was a gamblers position. So when we had the big financial dump in 2008 these people got hurt, they lost all or a large percentage of their wealth holdings. Now do we have sympathy with the folks that go into a casino and lose a bundle? Of course not. We know the casino is loaded against the gambler. Well, investing in the financial services and stocks and municipal bonds and all the other forms of finding a means of making money with no output of effort is a gamble. If the financial situation turns sour, as it has, you lose. All of this investment effort was directed to increasing ones money holding with free money and making no productive effort in doing so, in other words, trying to get something for nothing over and above your original payout.

Same thing applies to other investments. Housing and land are a very good example. Remember during the early 2000’s that the common concept on land and housing is that they would never go down in value, that is, what they could be exchanged for in dollars. Well, the middle class bought hook line and sinker into that and many got burned with the housing crash. All of a sudden, their million dollar home cannot be sold for anywhere near their purchase price. And, in conjunction with that, many had refinanced multiple times so that they owe much more than the property can be sold for. Under water home ownership indeed! I feel their pain!

My lack of sympathy extends to more than the financial aspect too. What economic class bought into the consumer society? It sure wasn’t the poor folks that barely got by, at least originally. I think it is apparent where that has gotten us; Huge degradation of the environment, huge usage of non-renewable resources, and the throw away society. As a class of consumers I reckon that is something to hold up with pride, right?

The middle class has always jumped on the wagon carrying the value system that “I got mine and if you ain’t got yours, your either lazy or god doesn’t approve of you at all” That last part was in very common usage from about the end of the civil war to the last great depression, encouraged by the Christian value systems of the time. Although I have had that attitude expressed to me countless times over the years and a lot of the new age semi religion advocate it in a variety of forms. Did that attitude encourage the “greed is good” value system? I would posit yes it did and then along came Ayn Rand and Bernays, and Karl Rove and Leo Strauss that reinforced it at the government level. You know, “the American way of life is non-negotiable” stuff out there.

During the heydays of the American industrial revolution the blue collar workers could actually have some hope of reaching the middle class position. Many did. WWII helped a lot on that also. The late 40’s and the 50’s were the period of the largest percentage of middle class folks in our society. It’s been down hill since the 60’s for a variety of reasons. Since 1944, inflation has devalued the dollar by over 90% and wages began a very noticeable stagnation since the 60’s, that is, blue collar workers pay didn’t even keep pace with inflation. The incomes of certain types of jobs did increase enormously, from the middle class jobs up to the elites income in the form of investments and the complete financialization of the economy, to where today; those with the top positions have increased their share of the countries incomes and wealth way beyond whatever justification you might offer. Multiple million dollar bonuses are absurd, especially when they are causing so much grief down the ladder of economic class.

I would expect to get some disagreements on this kind of analysis, but for me, the data speaks for itself. I have no sympathy for the downgrade of the middle class. They brought it all upon themselves as far as I can see and with rare exception, their value systems suck.

That said, I return to a brief statement about the last post on SF and Greer.

Several people noted that Greer and some other writers have, in a nutshell, a real ego problem. It shows up in their comments concerning disagreement of perceptions or reasoning and in some cases, of data. I can understand the impulse to defend ones position on some subject; hell I do it too. This subject of defense of ones most cherished beliefs I have covered before. When a person’s beliefs are based on ideology rather than a realistic assessment of what is transpiring around them, that person then becomes immersed in a defensive position, and is a trap easy to fall into. My father years ago had what I considered a piece of wisdom for me; every thoughtful person should take out their most cherished beliefs and examine them very periodically for how they work, consequences and how they match up with the reality around them. If they no longer work, or have undesirably consequences or not match up with the reality around them, then change those beliefs. Unfortunately, this usually involves some mental energy and usually some emotional pain, both of which are generally avoided by most people. You first have to admit that your stance is/was wrong. Not an easy thing for most to do, a contradiction of the ego. I am using “belief” here in a broad sense; A commitment to an idea or pattern of ideas that may or may not have substantial data to support it. An example. A writer that Freeacre and I have followed for years maintains that all questioning and conspiracy theories concerning 9-11 are bullshit, there is ample evidence that none of those theories have weight. I along with some others have suggested to him that he needs to dig a bit deeper into the data, which he adamantly refuses to do and has shut down all discussion on the subject. His sole defense that he has presented to me is an article in Popular Mechanics put out in Feb of 2005. (
It’s as if Popular Mechanic has the last word on the subject. When I take that article and compare it to a lot of the other 9-11 data dug up by supposedly reliable researchers, the PM article becomes a joke, in my opinion of course. Read it if you haven’t before. It is easy to tear it apart using other data from other “experts”. Now, this writer is seemingly unable to delve deeper into this controversy. What are the consequences of a general population doing the same? Does this position actually work with the additional data being presented? Or, is my stance (beliefs) on the corruption of high elites in our government and the reliability of the “science experts” that presented this article in PM not realistic and am I taking a stance that has no basis in reality?

In reality, the best an individual can do is to examine as much of the data available on any subject and come to some kind of conclusion (Belief) concerning it. That mine is very contradictory to the above writer’s conclusions proves nothing. It appears that this problem of “beliefs” on any subject is a black hole that cannot be resolved. If a person is conscientious about such stuff and keeps an open mind to new information that can be considered reliable, we can hope that we are at least somewhat in alignment with the reality of the situation. However, it appears to me that we can never be absolutely sure of that. I honestly try and keep in a mental space where I can change those “beliefs” with sufficient evidence to the contrary. LOL But we all know that 9-11 was an inside job.

As a side note, I find it very interesting that large amounts of the elites are assembling in and around Denver Colorado, where the huge underground city (documented) has been built. Does this have anything to do with space events that have been posited that promise to be detrimental to life on earth? I guess if that huge solar flare heading for earth actually happens and fries most everything on the surface, all we can really do is put up the lawn chairs and enjoy the light show as it comes at us.

This brings up my last comment for this post. One of the common assumptions is that the elites are people who, at its most basic level, are pretty much just like us. You know, the putting their pants on one leg at a time kind of thing. While their value systems we take issue with, they are not necessarily more intelligent than we are but, obviously more clever at making money and exercising power. I’m beginning to question that assumption for these reasons. Outside of the newly rich, the power families of this world are very closed, in some cases inbred and their children are raised having just about every advantage this world has to offer in education and health care. Would this lead to a dynasty in these families of overall superior intelligence and abilities? Notable exceptions do appear, like our last president, either that or he was immensely clever at disguising his superiority and appear as just another dumb Billy Bob. With smart breeding and culling of the less desirable traits, humans can do the same thing as we do with domesticated animals, breed for the desirable traits. Now there obviously is not data on this kind of speculation, but I do wonder about it. If it is true, us other mere mortals are so doomed. In which case I just can hope that when the elites emerge from their underground cities that there is enough of a wasteland left that they all commit suicide from depression. Sigh.

I can't believe these feathered dinosaurs. They actually threatened me with a moratorium on eggs if I didn't hurry up and get the grain out!


freeacre said...

More or less along the lines of your post, Mike Ruppert's speech in Portland, OR. on 9/11/11 is on YouTube, and I thought it was good. He talks about the creation of a new paradigm, and how to break the back of the God of Money. He called himself a "Gaian," which I thought was interesting. The questions from the audience elicited good things as well. For one, he says we don't have to worry about millions being incarcerated in FEMA camps because the government is so broke, it could never feed and house us all. They'll just put checkpoints around the cities and declare "safety" areas and the whole place will be a camp. Well, that's a comfort..
You can go to YouTube and put in Mike Ruppert 9/11/11.

Anonymous said...

Murph, regarding those chickens, I saw the way they follow you everywhere, like your the Pied Piper Of Hens :-) They will give up their revolt soon enough. You have the grain and without it they are Doomed ( as Randy would say )! I think it was the day of that photo that you were counting the hens and came up one short. That was funny when we found out it had somehow got locked in your garage, and then that hen knocked quite a few things over trying to get out :-)

The circle I made, seen in the post photo, represents for me everything in existance, hence the simple name " Circle Of Everything ". The center stone of my circles I think of as the Source of all things/of everything.

I am in awe of the infinitely grand artchitecture and beauty of what we perceive as our universe. Scientist think that it all came from a single point/source, the Singularity. Science can't explain how that could happen, even though thats what the evidence shows. Its really something we can't even begin to fathom since it defies all the rules we/science use in interpreting the cosmos. Regarding the source of the cosmos, I know there are many interpretations held within humanity about what " the Source " is.

A circle with center point is a basic feature found commonly in nature and that is why I chose it as a symbol. Like the brief pattern produced when a drop of rainwater hits a pond, the sun with an ice halo around it, what you would see in a time lapse video of the north star, showing myriad circles of the other stars circling around it :-)

So its a simple thing I do out in nature in the places I like to go, making the circles, to remind me of my awe of the natural world, and the enigmatic wonder of how it came to be :-) Also, I alway do my circles with 11 stones, not counting the one in the center. I like the number 11, it looks and feels simple and reminds me of simplicity, a way of being that I try as much as possible to live. 8 stones ends up being like quadrants, 9 and 10 is to small and the numbers don't look right, but 11 makes a perfect circle :-)

Well thats it for now ( more later ) since I'm pretty tired from a long hike along Deep Creek today, stopping by the hotsprings too. The stream is getting brisk from the cooler nights but it still was a refreshing swim. I took my two pooches Tema and Piper and they are Bush Wacked too, and they konked out as soon as we got home. We shall sleep good tonight :-)

Like your post Murph, we have similiar ideas on many things :-)


Anonymous said...


I am pinching a few minutes on someone els’s computer so I will try to be brief.
Greer is entrenched in his own POV so when someone offers a reasoned different way of seeing things, instead of dealing objectively with the alternative way, he becomes completely completely dismissive.

What you say about the middle class is okay up to a point however there were there those in the UK particularly that were encouraged by Thatcher to reverse the difficulties of the economy be starting their own businesses. Long story short is what these people didn’t realise is that the economy was sinking because credit had been deliberately withdrawn. When the big firms failed they took the little ones with them and that was not because the start ups were upstarts and were bad at what they did.

So far as the basic ability and ultimate survival of the PTB goes, they have improved their education beyond the primitave accumulation stage. The education standards of the classes beneath them has been deliberately eroded. It is not for nothing that the Rothschild’s and Rockerfeller’s particularly have invested heavily in eugenics or the genome project to give it its nice name. Their geene pool has been improved over the years whilst by various means ours have been imperceptably deeteriorated.

BTW Murph - you been on a diet?

Must fly


Anonymous said...

FB, I did check out that review you did titled " social relevance ". While I agree with most of the points put forth by MA in his UN speech calling out the US and UN for what they do, my comment was focused on that specifically. I agree with you that MA and Iran have their own problems without a doubt, as you outlined to some measure in your review.

I like too where MA throws doubt on the whys and hows of 9-11 by calling it " mysterious ". I hope some day that truth of 9-11 gets exposed but the way things are going with the perps burying 9-11 truth in their myriad ways I'm really not counting on the general public getting it, at least in the US. The rest of the world is clearly much more aware of 9-11 as the US instigated false flag it was. Of course there are differant ideas about all the specific intracacies of just all that went on that day but the three trade towers clearly now to be shown being taken down by controlled demolitions can only mean its an inside job to one degree or another.

Also FB in the last topic in my post regarding the GEAB report, at first glance I thought they were suggesting the idea of Greece defaulting as not being the real story of their situation, or that it was made up, but in re-reading the article it now looks to me like they are citing that the western elites are trying to imply that greece itself is the " sole " problem, like the whole rest of the western economies are somehow ok if it wasn't for that darn Greece. So they are saying that greece is just a part of the very much larger fundemental problems the western economies are riddled with. The western powers are pointing the finger at Greece to try and take the light off of their own corruption and pervasive economic difficulties.

Murph, I see the great so-called Middle Class as being just another example of a type of bubble, like all the various others that were made possible by the amazing energy sources of hydrocarbons and the transient recent period where they had been the cheapest and most abundant.

There was enough energy such that many things bloomed into being that would have never been otherwise possible, like as one example a huge middle class in the US, mass social programs, huge infrastructure programs and all the rest. With world energy supplies heading into times of less and less abundance and affordability a great paring down of the created abundance is well underway, and the US middle class will continue to be culled as the great diveragance between the rich and poor expands rapidly as energy becomes more expensive and increasingly scarce. The same will go for all the diverse jobs that employed these throngs. The energy made all of this employment with decent wages possible.

But all of the talking heads on the MSM and in politics keep issueing forth their nonsense about getting back to growing and putting everyone back to work. Well the reality that is, and will be unfolding all around us will show them for the dreamers and liars that they are.

As the real world conditions and their impact on the many collide with the nonsense prognostications spewed for by the powerful controllers ( the few ), it will precipitate a growing angst in the masses that I think we all know will boil into things more tumultous regarding social cohesion.

So folks will continue to dispair about the declining fate of the " middle classes " in differant countries but the reality of so many important resources peaking with no other means to truthfully re-invent the recent abundant times for so many, will mean the continued decline of the middle class and so much else that made average peoples lives so much easier. This is now the path we are on, into the foreseable future from the looks of it to me.


murph said...


The comment above I agree with, but I don't think you have taken it far enough, at least in the comment.

We have several things to consider that appear to be inescapable facts. Jeavons Paradox is one of them; as we become more efficient, our energy use increases as one of those considerations.

What I also see is that technology indeed makes human life more convenient but also more complex and that necessitates more fragility within that system, that is, more complexity means more ways for the system to collapse.

If this is accurate, than my next question is; at what point is complexity self defeating? We currently have the most complex societies the world has ever experienced and they sure appear to me to be in an irreversible collapse. Which means to me that those left are going to have to lead far less complex lives, depend more on human labor instead of machine labor.

What about those folks that are not members of the economic middle class? What is their destiny?

It sure appears to me that there will be a great die off of human beings, either by design or just plain circumstances. If the circumstances are not world wide extinction, those left had better have their shit together and start with a different way of looking at the universe and our place in it. Otherwise, it will all just start up again and proceed to the same dismal end.

I postulate that my experience with middle class value system indicate that if those value systems are not changed, it will just be more of the same and to the same end. I would further postulate that this system of values is what led to the top down organization of societies and the formation of the oppressive elite control. Not the only influence of course, but a big one.

Without romanticizing the way primitive societies are/were organized it does appear that their different world view allowed them to proliferate and exist more or less in keeping with the way the natural world is organized without killing each other off.

One of the characteristics I see in middle class values is a heavy reliance on religion to justify their values. Manifest Destiny was one of the most destructive manifestos ever perpetuated on societies and was completely the result of religious values based on very questionable translations of very old manuscripts. As I see it, the mercantile class (the middle class) of the 16th and 17th centuries were the chief advocates of this and led to the attempt at genocide of the original inhabitants of this continent. It wasn't until the middle class of the period riled up the population movement going west against the indigenous people that the actual genocide started taking place. Most of the very early settlers moving west had no problems with the indigenous people, in fact they were rather well received. Lewis and Clark certainly didn't have a problem with it or they would never have returned.

Anonymous said...

Murph, my discussion of the middle class was more about things current, specific to energy as related to them, but I think you have made good points in your more in depth appraisal of this issue.

On another subject, we just got another dell lap top computer since we now have the high speed connection with the wireless router. I'm using the new one right now but am still getting used to its differances from our older one. Since we got the faster connection our internet usage by all in the family has really ramped up since due to it being so much more useful :-)


Anonymous said...

Melting ice is Earth's warning signal – and we cannot ignore it

From the Himalayas to the Arctic, the signs of danger are visible

....Ice is the white flag being waved by our planet, under fire from the atmospheric attack being mounted by humanity....


Anonymous said...

The peak oil crisis: the German army report


freeacre said...

Well, here's my outrage of the day.

The Federal Reserve wants the go-ahead to monitor every mention of the Fed to assess the threat to them and to be able to set prices depending on demand, and on and on. Everything. The Net, phones, e-mail, conversations, et al.

nina said...

Great photo of you Murph with your feathered dinosaurs of many colors. Heh.

So I went to the article and then the book, scouring all in search of the force multiplier tasked to write nonsense by his first cousin. All mention of his existence removed by now, of course. The only reference to cuzzy Benjamin is in a review on the book's website by "Anonymous" attempting a denial of any relationship, Chertoff is a common name and so forth. Another "heh". Problem being when the original PM article came out, MANY reliable alternative newsites told a very different story. I recall one editor personally visiting Benjamin's mom who allegedly told him without hesitation, yes, the boys are first cousins. Played together often, remain good friends to this day...
Perhaps my memory of how it went is as false as jet fuel melting steel beams and perhaps not.

But that is how mainstream 9 eleven works - flimsy half truths and diaphanous fact.

I admire your tackling the middle class, it is my observation there never was such a thing, there was vast wealth and there were wealthy people who lost their wealth as credit grew in popularity and the cost of living took them into the realm of formerly rich just getting by, usually behind closed doors and there was destitution that made up the a post slavery generation of sharecroppers and their offspring. A true middle class would be people, believing they come from wealth somewhere in their ancestral pasts, still trying to emulate it in their values and allegiances and as we see today, never having close contact with hard core hustlers and cons, fail miserably, losing everything in the downward spiral of the present.

Excellent post. Thank you.

nina said...

FA, sounds like something that should be called the Strawman Strategy. Set prices, who are they tryin' to kid. I see why you are outraged. This exposes one branch of the program as being all part of a larger operation, if not the boss. No secret there, but that isn't how they usually sell themselves which implies the press releases are mirroring the arrogance of their employer/s.
What they can and can't do is still up for question. We'll find out soon enough. I have to ask what threat. They want to know how much more they can do before firing up the presses and get back to inventing Rube Goldberg financial products for the New World.
Its so ludicrous in fact, it should have been an Onion piece.


nina said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
nina said...

I love the HSW fire ceremony table artwork. I am glad I did not lift it from his flickr albums as I'd been thinking about doing, it is sooo oh lovely, because it is perfectly appropriate for top spot on your and Murph's blog.

It is a joy to see it again, especially in this context.

>gratitude to the artist and the webmasters<

RAS said...

I will agree that the middle class bought into consumerist culture whole-heartedly, but then, so did everyone else. I grew up in the poor and working classes, and both classes believe in it just as much as the higher-ups and they participate in it to the best of their ability. They just don't have the money to do as much damage as the middle class.

More broadly, the reduction in the number of people in the middle class is an indicator of the broadening social inequality in this country. Not that we needed another indicator, mind you, but it is the most visible. Historically speaking, the broader the middle income base of a society is, the more stable that society. It moderates the distribution between the 'haves' and the 'have-nots' and tends to reduce overall inequality. When the middle class of a society starts to crumble, the society becomes more and more unstable.

murph said...


I agree that the lower income class bought into the consumer society also, because of lack of economic resources less so than the middle class. Because the upper and middle class had the economic resources to indulge, I think they were the primary instigators.

One question though; I know that the common thought is that a middle class has a stabilizing effect. When we look at periods of history where wealth distribution was really bad, (that is the have-nots increase) and middle class was virtually non existent often they had very stable societies, at least for some period of time. At least until the have-nots decided they wanted a bigger piece of the pie.

I'm not so sure I buy into the idea that a majority of a society being middle class economically leads to long term stability. It does seem to lead to changes in value systems for individuals and society as a whole.

The middle class have a lot to lose when a society becomes unstable. So, one of their values is a maintaining of the business as usual paradigm. Historically, I read about the predominant resistance to things like "women voting rights" and "social justice issues" and "integration movements" etc and it sure appears to me that the middle class saw that as disruption of the business as usual paradigm and opposed it.

I would find it interesting to see a demographic study on the Tea Party for income distribution.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Nina regarding your nice comments about my photo of the arrangement of circle and heads I made while visiting Murph and Freeacre. I took that photo of Murph and the chickens. I thought it was really funny how they follow him around :-) They ( Murph/Chickens ) are clearly good pals and those little Dino's think alot of Murph :-) I also took another pic of him with their cool pooch Brie looking up at him with love and admiration :-) A couple of the photos I took show Murph and Freeacre around the ceremonial table and fire, and I really like those too. Freeacre beat a very nice indian type drum she had made while we watched the fire burn and smelled its fragrant smoke. That was a very enjoyable day that I'll always remember :-)

Check out this " Hobbit House " a guy built for his family over in Wales. I'd sure like to wake up in these cool digs everyday :-)

Man builds stunning ‘hobbit house’ for just £3,000


RAS said...

Murph, which societies are you talking about? I don't know of any that had such a bad distribution for very long (certainly less than a decade) that didn't explode a la France.

Murph wrote "one of their values is a maintaining of the business as usual paradigm."

Yes, that's exactly what gives them their stabilizing effect. The middle class always buys into the ruling paradigm and works to maintain it; in our case it's a bad thing, but that's how they maintain the stability of a society. It is the middle class that transmits its culture and its values to the next generation and keeps cultural continuity going.

Ancient Egypt had cultural continuity for over 3,000 years before Alexander the Great showed up. 3,000 years. That's a lot of time. In between the slaves and the desperately poor at the bottom and the fabulously wealthy rulers at the top, there was a broad middle class of artisans, crafters, merchants and the like who were responsible for transmitting the values, outlook, etc down through the years. Other societies that lasted show a similar structure.

Anonymous said...

Dang! I just watched this dude, Lawrence O'Donnell, do a rant on MSNBC highlighting the NYPD's abuse of prostesters. Man, it was scathing -which means, he'll be out of a job soon.

I wonder... will Murikans ever stick up for themselves? Are we too individualistic to gather together to change things? Will we stop bickering over the media induced Right vs Left BS?

Probably not.


murph said...


The period we identify as the dark ages had a great amount of social stability, although repressive as hell and lasted for a considerable amount of time and were characterized by having great wealth disparity. It eventually gave way to the age of enlightenment. Greece also had a period like this for several hundred years.

Ras, I don't deny that the middle class are able to be fairly successful at transmitting values down the generations and that lends stability to a society. What I am taking issue with is many of the values in itself. What is also left out is that if this stabilizing influence is so predominate, how does it change and not have the influence it had? The stabilization influence is going to be primarily political I think. So the majority of the population has a stabilization middle class that morphs into something else. What causes that? I will posit it is the value system itself which in my observations indicate is what has happened in Western society.

Your comment on Egypt is interesting. What source of information indicates"there was a broad middle class of artisans, crafters, merchants and the like who were responsible for transmitting the values, outlook, etc down through the years". I have seen speculations about this, but no solid data. There is even contention that those people were not middle class at the time. I just don't know. It appears to me that trying to establish social arrangements for very ancient cultures contains more assumptions than actual data.

My arguments about the middle class is not their social stability influence for some amount of time, but the consequences of some of their value systems over the long haul. In our case, the epitomizing of the throw away society, the extravagant use of power and resources and the consequent degradation of the environment. I recognize that during the expansion of the middle class in this country there was the attitude that nearly everything we used was in infinite supply, which of course, has been shown to not be true. But, the middle class propagation of the infinite supply and infinite growth paradigm became a problem that thoughtful people could anticipate and did, but was ignored by the ever upward economic mobility part of the population.

Do I fault them for this shortsightedness? You bet.

freeacre said...

I think that the concept of "middle class" continues to change. I think it started with Henry Ford paying his workers a dollar a day so that they would be able to afford to buy the automobiles that they were producing. This worked so well that other types of work began to pay more, too. Government workers, hospital workers, white collar jobs, tradesmen, union workers,etc. all began to make enough to have discretionary income. They could buy homes, send their kids to college, take vacations, etc. Work was pretty steady. These guys made their wages and salaries by working. The financial class makes their money from investing. Now that pensions have been replaced by 401K's, the middle class thinks they also have a stake in the stock market. This, of course, is an illusion. They can (and have) been kicked to the curb at the financier's whim.
And, yes, in reveling in their new-found comfort, the middle class depended on television to model what a successful middle class family looked like. "Father Knows Best," "Leave it to Beaver," which morphed into "Seinfeld," and "Housewives" (or whatever it is). Seduced by the "10,000 Things," and dumbed down in school, the middle class became for the most part, morons who's only purpose was to consume in mass quantities.
So, was it their fault that we've had resource wars and have practically ruined the life of the plants and animals? Yes, it is. We have an obligation to the incarnation that we are born into. If we blow it, the Universe is not pleased. May have to start over as a dung beetle or some sort of scum.

rockpicker said...

They say there is no getting around karma...

Anonymous said...

Here is a link at Survival Acres to the video Randy spoke of:


September 27, 2011
MSNBC & Police Brutality....

I see these protest are spreading to other cities. I hope it keeps growing but we shall see.


Anonymous said...

hey wiz... i've got some friends up the road at heartwood, our local developing intentional community, that used the wales project as a prototype for their own project. check em out...

randy... not likely any time soon cuz the rt vs left pissin contest ain't BS. its real! as such its just one of many reflections of the pent up polarizations between peoples coming to a head like festering boils. some of which, like politics, are exacerbated by the light of MSM while still others remain more in the shadows but are just as gapped and volital as opposing political idealogies if not moreso.

i.e., the very so-called values murph shed light upon in his comment back to ras. a point i agree with. that is, that these value systems ultimately become causal to the disintegration of the glue holding the class together. if its even possible to call a generations long frenzy of hell-bent-on-using-up-all-the-resources a value system.

murph suggests stabilization is primarily politically influenced so it follows that wnen the politics become polarized destabilization ensues. it certainly manifests and appears this way on the surface but i'm inclined to think its something deeper and darker. something older than politics though at some point the lines seperating... say, church and state... or to put it another way, religion and politics, become blurred and its hard to tell where one leaves off and the other begins.

don't ask me to unpack this further cuz i can't but i suspect that it has something to do with the expanding universe. that we the people are as much products of that as the cosmos itself. yet we, all 6+ billion of us, apparently find ourselves on a planet with finite resources necessary to sustain life on that planet relative to its population. so the fight for survival is on.

i see our current global economic system as a reflection of this ever expanding U. what is the sine qua non of that system? it must continue to expand right? if it stops expanding it starts eating itself alive. it must keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger. is this the product of dumbed down middle class societies conditioned to spend, spend, spend, eat, eat, eat, use, use, use or did we come here with a predisposition toward it?

certainly its clear there is a dumbing down of the already dumb but ultimately i suspect the latter was in play first.


in other news the highest profile terra threat on the canarys, and thus tsunami threat to the eastern u.s. coast, had been the cumbre vieja on la palma. but instead el hierro has come alive with over 8000 shakers ranging from 1.1 into the 3's since mid july. over 1000 of those in the last week. the past week was the first encounter of 3 or better which is the number that triggered a yellow alert and some evacuations. anything over a 4 will trigger a red alert and complete evac of the entire island. until 2 days ago the 3's were sporadic. then yesterday recorded 9 of them and 11 today. the whole thing appears to be ramping up in intensity.



wv... marvin. marvin who?

murph said...


As you said, can't unpack it any further. I don't know that establishing a first cause is helpful. What would seem more helpful to me anyway, is getting the population to use their damned brains, at least those with above 90 IQ. After all, there were societies that did not/do not have the consume consume drive you mention. Did we all breakaway from that position or are they an anomaly of the species.

Within western societies, it sure does appear that the values(glue)holding them together is dissolving. In this case yes they become polarized. Does this happen with all classes contained in primitive cultures? It sure was the sinking of the Aztecs and maybe the Anastasie. Does that apply to the N. American Indian tribes or the Ibo of Australia?

I suspect it's as much a cycle as anything. Too much affluence within a society sure seems to be related to the amount of polarization that goes on.

rockpicker said...

marvin bush

P; Nice to hear from you. And thanks for the update on the situation in the Canaries. Sure hope that mountain don't slide towards N. America, for your sake.

Given a planet governed by Newtonian physics, with a burgeoning population and no real means of escape, why is it a surprise to discover that an economic system based on usery proves unsustainable? Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Ruppert likes to call it the infinite-growth paradigm. It's why the elites feel they must depopulate the earth. In order to save it.


rockpicker said...

For themselves.

Anonymous said...

I'll check out that " Earth In Mind " link you suggested P :-) I took a peek and it looks like another interesting homemade dwelling. With that one and the one in Wales I wonder if they have to deal with inspectors. Seems like these folks had situations where they were out in the woods such that they could just put these small homes up and not be bothered by city permits, building guidlines, city fees and stuff like that. Thats the nice thing of being hidden out of sight so you can put up what you want :-)


freeacre said...

I hate to admit it, but there really does seem to be too many people for limited resources. And the only ones having less children are in the countries that us the most resources. So many children on this earth are hungry already. Take a look at the video on Burnie's blog - it will rip your heart out. Do you think that all those over 65 or something would voluntarily kill themselves? Parents will voluntarily sterilize themselves after 1 child? Look at the world. People are cultivating terraced mountains. Don't tell me that there is "plenty of room." There isn't.
Maybe the children of those who survive the eventual culling of the herd will reject capitalism, war, and the systems that dictate "growth."
We are nearing the end of a very materialistic and evil cycle. Hopefully, there is a better one on the way.
It's gonna be a bitch gettin' there, though.
I think you are right, p. More forces at work than meet the eye.

freeacre said...

It seems to me that there is not so much left to blow up on the Canary Island that was there the first time. So, if it does blow, there wouldn't be the super tsunami that happened a long time ago. Maybe it won't be as bad (for the US) this time around.
Of course, if the expanding earth theory is right, the increased electromagnetism will set off untold earthquakes all over the place. oh, dear.
Well, it looks like we made it through the Elenin thing unscathed. And the masters of the universe meeting at the Denver airport. And the asteroids.
Looks like we're stuck with these Wall St. degenerates and political wankers, and trumped up wars awhile longer. Rats.

rockpicker said...

"We confuse how we've been made to feel with knowledge..."

-Chris Hedges

Anonymous said...

I really respect and appreciate the views of Chris Hedges, but there is a point within the short video you posted RP where I would disagree with him. I have seen this notion before expressed by differant people that there is nothing that you can learn from the TV media, or for that matter electronic media, and Chris cited this in the video, he said throw your TV away and that he trys to avoid the " electronic media ", and he spoke of getting the info you need from print media.

But the truth is you can learn all manner of things from all the many types of media. Of course within the various media info is all sorts of mis-representations, deceipts, lies and such, depending on what source you are considering. But as an example, I can watch FOX news and glean certain truths about this or that.

Now I would, given the consideration of using my time wisely choose to watch greatly more informative programming like Free Speech TV or Link TV, stations where I know I will get a vastly more accurate and condensed assesment of what is really going on regarding any particular subject they are focusing on.

There is absolutely no way I could have learned the things I have about the world without having access to the variety of media sources that are available to us these days. If I had to rely solely on getting knowledge from printed form my ability to ascertain the greater truths of things unfolding would be greatly stunted. Like for example I have been watching for some time CCTV ( Chinese Cable News ) and have learned all sorts of things about that country and its culture. Now this does not mean that I think CCTV is truthful about everything but there are myriad truths there to learn from.

I find video sources especially helpful in learning about the world because they have myriad truths to offer, so much to learn from even outside of the intended message or intent. Someone could describe in print a scene in Africa but to see it in video form allows one to experience in a much more whole sense. And being there would bring even more realizations.

So when I use media for the purpose of gaining more understanding I am always weighing the validity of the info as compared to what I have learned from a wide variety of sources, including my own life experience. It is of course more productive for me in my learning to utilize sources that have a higher degree of teaching me something of importance, info that has more " gems in the rough ".

We all know the vast variety of media is full of things which offer us nothing in gaining better insight into our changing world and I don't waste my time with stuff like that. I have a friend who says you can't trust anything on the internet. But then how could he say TV info is any differant. But the reality is pretty much anything that goes on in this world can be found on the internet/TV these days, all the truths, all the lies, and everything else. So my point is all of the the media can be amazing tools at our disposal, as long as we use these sources intelligently and wisely, and they can allow you to experience things, gain knowledge in a condensed and easy way that could not be possible without them. We don't need to shun the media, but we do need to be smart about how we use it. Also in citing all of this, I realize the printed form media has its importance too.


Anonymous said...

Here is an excellent, short and concise three minute video that explains " fiat currency " and how this system is used by the elites to redistribute wealth from the bottom of the classes to the top:

Government and the Power to Issue Fiat Currency Out of Thin Air


rockpicker said...

Morris...on Libya

rockpicker said...

Hello, in there...

Chris Hedges...

Anonymous said...

RP, Your last Chris Hedges link goes to a comment page. Were you perhaps trying to link to the article here:


Anonymous said...

want a lesson on the value of gold?


murph said...

RP and HSW,

Cris Hedges sure writes some interesting analysis's.


Interesting talking head comments on what someone else is reported to have said about gold and fiat money. I wonder if it was taken out of context. I haven't seen what that context is/was. May have been an entirely innocuous statement blown out of context.

Anonymous said...

Hi All, I was going to relate my thoughts on the OP, and how the class system is a control feature of the PTB, but I've been sidetracked by FA's "too many people" thing.

For me everything comes down to the quality of design, and the quality of design comes down to the quantity of observation. If all the people on the planet atm can fit onto Manhattan island, are there really too many of us, or is it that there are too many of us living unsustainable lives?

When people use the "too many people" argument, what they usually mean is "too many people living, or wanting to live, my lifestyle" I.e. a lifestyle propped up with cheap energy (BAU).

I think we need to look outside the BAU design model, it stands to reason, since we all appreciate we're in the death throws of the current design.

The glaringly obvious problem of "too many people" is actually the solution, put them to work with a better design philosophy, one that follows natures patterns (like FA's circle example if that's not too deep) a design philosophy that has ethical perspective, one that reinvests surplus into the community and the earth.

Some of you might recognise where I'm going, it is not that there are too many people for Permaculture, it's that there is not enough permaculture for the number of people. :)

Earth Care, People Care, Fair Shares, simples.

Having travelled lots of roads in search of solutions, I do think all roads lead to Permaculture.

p.s. re MCR describing himself as "Gaian" would that be an anti nuclear Gaian, or pro Lovelock Gaian?


Anonymous said...

has anybody read that doc?

rockpicker said...

Holy Schamoly, P! That report needs to be read broadly. Maybe Popular Mechanics will offer a review.

Anonymous said...

GD, I seriously doubt that there is enough fertile land for 7 Billion people to survive off of permatculture. And I'd also bet that the concept of permaculture will not stop the coming train wreck of myriad converging catastrophes, many of which are being caused by too many people, living lifestyles that they will not give up until they are forced by harsh circumstance to do so.

And so the fighting over resources will continue to heat up, and there will be lots of humans that won't be moralistic at all about how they get what they want, whether they be the Elites or in the lower classes. For example all of the gargantuan population that lives here in So Cal from the Mexican Border to Santa Barbara, from the sea to the desert are in know way going to exist off of permaculture. I think this will be the same for most of the large population centers across the world.

Now I'm not in saying this trying to put down the concept of permaculture at all, but the mass consuming societies we have built up are hell bent on continueing the " good times ", and keeping the party going. Also I think there will be way more people with no sense of how to make it that will be all to willing to scavanging all and everything any small percentage of permaculture enthusiast are trying to grow for themselves to eat. Well at least thats the way I see it anyways. We of course will all see what really unfolds in the years immediatly ahead of us.


Anonymous said...

RP... i found it on bix weir's site. i'm only a few pages into it but, yup, it'll curdle blood! the trail goes back to the fall of ussr and then back to iran/contra. and of course, THE GOLD!

lotta dots appear to be connected here. appears flocco et al were relied on. flocco is the only name i'm familar with. here's something on v.k. durham...

quote... We are a Service Provider for
Interpol, Global Victim Banking, CIA, FBI, BATF, Homeland Defence, US Congress, and Senate, and all US Banking, US Treasury, and Fed Reserve, US Naval intelligence and (the little gray foxes) ect.

is durham just being coy?

weir developed the road to roota theory that posits that a comic titled 'wishes and rainbows' developed by the boston fed is much more than a fairy tale designed to teach children about how supply and demand works...

looks like reading all these would keep anybody otta the bars for awhile and then, as a result, maybe send most TO the bar!! ...p

murph said...


That article that you linked to about 9-11 and the fall of the Soviets was long and very interesting. What I took away from it was the incomprehensible complexity of events. I am reasonably sure there is even more to it than that article points out. IMO it also (again)points out the truly evil SOB's that are in control. Almost makes me want to believe in Satan.

LOL WV singe

rockpicker said...

check this:

The ghost of Smedley Butler, to the rescue!


Jeff Rense has carried a number of op-ed pieces by Karl Schwartz.

Also, Ben Fulford was babbling somewhat coherently about the Japanese gold over a year ago, but this pulls it better into focus.

From the looks of things, the consciousness explosion is well under way. Yay!

Anonymous said...

Canada's Arctic ice shelves breaking up fast

....Canada in just six years has lost nearly 50 percent of the massive ice shelf area that holds back glacial ice from melting into the ocean....


rockpicker said...

Murph and Palooka;

Man, here's another one. You're gonna love this one!

HSW; Thanks for the correction.

rockpicker said...

Man, the hits just keep coming...!

rockpicker said...

Oh, and this...

Honest to God...

Anonymous said...

FA said... Looks like we're stuck with these Wall St. degenerates and political wankers, and trumped up wars awhile longer. Rats!

and then chris hedges said... the more you make compromises to those who's loyality is to privilege and power the more you diminish the capacity to fight for justice and truth.

and then darrell scott stood at the head of a tombstone and wrote about it...

lyric sheet...

will the sun ever rise on justice and truth? maybe it simply all comes down to a twisted, maniacal fate... p

rockpicker said...

Mike Ruppert and Gary Null were on last night, dissing the protestors on Wall Street, but I say the opposition had to begin somewhere, and I'm glad they had the courage to stand up there, in the faces of the main culprits, and tell them 'No More!' Viva la resistance!

rockpicker said...

HSW; Maybe this partly explains why the arctic ice has been melting so rapidly this summer.

Anonymous said...

HSW yeah sure, in a fast crash scenario, just that I think we're facing Stoneleigh's "century of challenges" rather than a fast crash, tho I was all fast crash a few years back (12?) I'm a little more pragmatic these days.

I look at my 78hp tractor and imagine how many people I'd need to replace it, and when you've been trying to get a community motivated to become self reliant and build a permaculture project for a few years you soon realise the one problem you will never have until it's established is too many people ;)

Anonymous said...

rp... fulford is strange but he makes at least one good point... if yer short a few hundred bil just send yer military and mercenaries to overthrow a couple dictators. then confiscate their funds and get the tax payers to foot the bill for the ass whoopin.

Anonymous said...

RP, regarding that info at Rense about the arctic ozone hole and Fukushima, I don't see in it any discussion of this " possible " development melting more ice, or adding more heat to do so. Average increasing world temperatures, less albedo affect due to decreasing ice extent creating warmer arctic waters, and dis-rupted jet stream patterns from changing climate I believe is where the casual factors for this Canada ice shelf break up are coming from.

On another subject, I'm assuming the October 3, 2011 9:39 AM post was GD, as it was not signed that I could see. Actually, I am more of the opinion, as you are GD, that the world situation may degrade in a much longer spell of contraction, puncutated at times by more harsh circumstance as we saw in 2007-2008. Something along the lines of James Howard Kunstler's phrase " The Long Emergency ". This does not mean that I completely discount that a quicker downfall might occur, but I see alot of ways that the slide could be a much longer timeframe than many doomsters might think.

Regarding your work on the permatculture effort and trying to get more people on board with it, I certainly respect your efforts in this regard. So my previous comment was not citing anything ill about that. I just don't think under any scenario that the concept of permaculture will provide for anything but a small percentage of the 7 billion population ( just like algae fuel won't save us ), and that will only be to the extent that those doing this permaculture are in a situation where they can carry out their plans un-affected, which I think in much harder times will very often not be the case.

Since we can't really predict what is going to unfold, how, when and where in any precise sense, planning strategies to create a more sustainable way of living as in your permaculture ideas and projects GD is certainly a worthy path to be following :-)


Anonymous said...

I saw on Free Speech TV tonight, on the Democracy Now show they reported that JP Morgan has just made a very large donation to the NYPD to help them bolster their force. Looks to me like the growing protest are getting those Banksters a bit spooked. Just more signs that in so many cases the police forces are working to protect the 1% elites, from the rest of us 99%.


RAS said...

Sorry I took so long to get back to you. I've been busy and I had surgery on Friday, so I've been recuperating from that.

We know what ancient Egyptian society was like; we have written records and more than one critical account. We also know what Greek and Roman societies were alike, among a double handful of others.

As for the middle ages, that's a commonly held misconception. Medieval Europe was a highly stratified society in terms of rank, yes, but not wealth; for most of the Middle Ages the nobility actually slept in the same room with everyone else in the household. The strict divisions of rank didn't start to take root until the invention of the chimney in the late MA, which made it possible to heat several rooms.

Pretty much everyone was poor; the only truly wealthy people were the monarchs and a handful of upper crust nobles, and even they didn't have much wealth by our standards. Even some nobles went a year or more without seeing a gold coin.

Also, there was more social mobility in the MA than there is today! It was a lot easier for someone to start as a tenant farmer and move their way up to join the merchant or craftsman class, or even to become nobility, than we give them credit for. It wasn't a perfect society (hardly. Monarch??? Uchh)but it wasn't as bad as common perceptions indicate. The real wealth disparities didn't start to occur until industrialization, followed by the resulting social explosion.

Juliet Schor did a really good look at the economics of MA Europe a few years ago, if you're interested.

RAS said...

One more comment regarding overpopulation. We are definitely overpopulated, but K and I have been talking about adding one more to the list in the relatively near future. We both *really* want to be parents, and adoption isn't an option for us. The foster care system won't accept non-Christians, much less lesbians, and we don't have an extra $20-40k lying around to adopt any other way.

I'm feeling guilty over this, but there's nothing else we can do.

rockpicker said...

HSW; You may have to speed up your timetable a little, if these guys succeed with their campaign against Wall Street. And, how would a full-on X-class killer cme that takes down the planetary grid effect your imagined collapse scenario? Some say, with total loss of electricity, ninety per cent of the American population will be dead within six months. That may be an exaggeration, but it certainly won't be a picnic if the power grid fails catastrophically.

Not only must we insist on justice for the banksters and Wall St. fraudsters, but we also need to focus on the criminals in the government, both elected and appointed. What EPA has done, or not done, about the tragedies of the Gulf of Mexico and Fukushima must be addressed as crimes against humanity.

The arrest and prosecutions of raw milk providers, while allowing agribusiness to poison our land, water and food with herbicides, insecticides and gmo's is a criminal offense against the people of this country, and must not be overlooked.

Anonymous said...


Last week I told you that two Belgian banks KBC and Dexia had been down rated by Moodys. Today Dexia bit the dust. From a four year ago high of €21, they lost 22% on the day and finished up at €1.00. It was blamed on bad management and large amounts of Greek and Italian holdings. Talk on the news is of breaking it up whatever that may mean. I guess there are those who will pick the pearls up for a knock-down price but I will give you one guess who is going to finish up with the crap.

I went to Holland today and read a local newspaper on the bus. The front page article was of aggression against civil servants in the job finding sector by the long term unemployed. Typical things quoted as being said included, “I can't put food on the table for my children;
I know where you live and what time you get home; I'm going to smash your teeth in; we know where your kids go to school” etc. Those guys really are on a hiding into nothing because there is absolutely nothing they can do to improve the situation and they can't even get another job themselves because there is nowhere for them to go. More than half the population are economic migrants who are finding that the promised land is reneging on the promise. They then work for less than the going rate which infuriates the nationals. The situation is compounded because there are very few employers offering fast (permanent) contracts so the government has finished up as a grouping point for whatever the temp agencies have on offer.

Ride the slide or as Randy is want to saying WASD.

Anonymous said...

RP, as far as what you termed as my " imagined collapse scenario ", everyone, all of us are in the same boat in that regard, since know one really knows how things will actually unfold for our future. Faster collapse, slower collapse, I have discounted neither, though I am inclined to think the later will be more likely.

Regarding significant CME's, no doubt they occur, but they are rare to the extent that statistically its unlikely that one of the scale you describe would happen, say, in our lifetimes. I see a big deal is being made by some parties about this current peaking cycle of the sun's activity. The sun oscilates in its typical cycles, sometimes stronger sometimes weaker. My expectation is that we will pass on through the peak and head back toward a solar minimum with nothing dramatically large regarding a CME occurring. Statistically that would be a reasonable expectation.

Remember your concern RP about Elenin, well here we are and what happened? Anything of note? Well I'd say that ten years down the road, if we look back, Planet X won't come and destroy us, no drastic CME event will kill off 90% of the US population, and we will pass through the 2012 Mayan end times predictions and still be here mulling along dealing with the many growing problems that we talk about here regularly.

Now one thing that will surely end everything that lives including the total destruction of the biosphere will be in a billion or so years when the sun through its normal life cycle expands to the extent that its heat will strip away earth's atmosphere, and before this life will have been long gone, having been fried off the planet anyway.

On another subject, regarding what you wrote " insist on justice " my point about the JP Morgan donation only related to the Banksters, and I know of course there is a very long list of other ills that need being addressed, and the other things you mentioned are of course part of that.


rockpicker said...

HSW; Man, whatever floats your boat.
When I read you, I see Norman Rockwell, when I'm looking for Pablo Picasso. Maybe the world needs some of your optimism, but when the "promised land reneges," what then?

Solar maximum is just beginning. It's slated to build until 2013. Far as I'm concerned, it can quit anytime 'cause we've got comets diving into the sun, cme's exploding off the backside, x-class flares going off like loose canons rolling across the deck, volcanoes not only threatening to explode, but exploding, satellites falling to earth because of the drag induced by a solar-heated expanding terrestrial atmosphere, not to mention the recent up-tick in large-magnitude earthquakes that has to be interfering with many seismologist's sleep patterns and the obviously human -manipulated , emf-related severe weather outbreaks all over the continental US, (and probably the world,). And on top of all the karma Universe is squaring off to settle up with, we have the 99% finally mad enough, and poor enough, and squeezed enough to stand up and fight back against the banksters and the fraudsters and the pharmaceuticals and the liars and the pedophiles who have been having just a little too much fun running this place at the have-nots' expense, so we can now look forward to economic anarchy and political chaos, on top of everything else.

The shit is hitting the fan, as we speak. Prep time is almost over.
Believe it or not.

rockpicker said...

Alert, from Steve Quayle:

"Anak Krakatau (Child Of Krakatoa) Erupts: Anak Krakatau, a volcanic island in the Sunda Strait between the islands of Java and Sumatra in Indonesia, erupted on Tuesday sending columns of ash and rock hurtling high into the air. The rise in volcanic and earthquake activity prompted authorities to put in place a 2km exclusion zone for tourists and local fishermen. The Indonesian Volcanology and Geology Disaster Mitigation Centre reported that an estimated 6,000-7,000 volcanic earthquakes were recorded daily during the weekend and on Monday. Daily earthquake totals usually do not exceed 100-200." more

Anonymous said...

RP, I realize you have everything all figured out, but what floats my boat is reason and sensible thinking, not stuff like hallucinated eruptions at Pigsah Crater, comets like Elenin wreaking havoc across the earth ( still waiting for that ), mis-interpreted radar info being considered as showing activity that caused/causes the Joplin toranado and all other extreme weather, etc.

So what happened to your comment that " everything pals in comparison " to the threat posed by Elenin "? Remember that? You know, I was going to go point by point with all that you cited in your last post but its clear to me that I would be wasting my time.

And lastly regarding this you wrote " Maybe the world needs some of your optimism, but when the "promised land reneges," what then? ". Jeezus, pardon me for citing that I think that maybe things will collapse more slowly than some people think it will. After all that I have discussed here, for you to act like I have some kind of blind " optimism " and have writen anything that implies we are headed for some " promised land " really is beyond ridiculous. Yes, excuse me for questioning your lock on the truth RP.

What you want RP is " only " people that agree with you. Look in the mirror, thats what you want.


freeacre said...

Perhaps harkening back to the talking stick concept of each putting his or her thoughts out there without reservation or judgement from the rest would be prudent. Just sayin'...

Wow! All these links to jaw-dropping sites and essays are knocking my socks off. And, murph is lost in Harlin County music in the background. That is haunting stuff - I've got goosebumps again. Now, those are the working people that both the dems and the repugs have totally lost touch with. Where is Joe Baggeant when we need him?

I hope all is well with whatever prompted the surgical procedure you has, ras. I've got a feeling, Darlin,' that you might end up caring for more children than you'd imagine possible if the shit really hits the fan. And, they'd be in good hands, I am sure. Very interesting info concerning the middle ages. I had never before differentiated between rank and money. Chimneys, eh? Hummm... fascinating.

That Anonymous video regarding the Banksters counts as a hit for the webbot Time Monks and the thing about Japan's potential nuclear program, the Sudnex virus, etc. does too, in terms of "secrets revealed."

Glacial melting, associated volcanoes, earthquakes, solar flares, cme's, smart meters, Italy just downgraded by Moody's, the president orders two Americans to be killed with no trial...protests all over the world... Is it getting hot/tense/deep all of a sudden or what? A cold rain is falling - or is that a "hard rain"?

wv: ungfulym "Those that are fooled" or, the clueless. lol

Love to you guys. What a bunch.

RAS said...

FA, it was lower GI surgery, and it turned out fine; it just took me a few days to get back into the swing of things.

As far as children goes, I'm not sure. I rather expect the state will set up workhouses (excuse me, orphanages) for all the abandoned kids, just like they did last time, rather than let them go to good loving homes. Just my suspicion.

The class system in the MA started out as a system of mutual obligation. A lord or knight was granted his land on the proviso that he protect it and care for the people; he was also obligated to join the monarch/duke/baron in times of war. Yes, he technically owned the land, but he couldn't kick anyone off unless they did something *really* bad and he had to provide for and defend the people. Both sides had obligations, and there was more than one case wherein a nobleman who didn't uphold his end of the bargain was deposed of.

Did you ever see Colonial House? Netflix has it. Most of those houses were chimney-less. The smokerooms with holes were how all houses were built before the invention of chimneys.

RAS said...

I have to agree with HSW that the crash that's coming is a slow one. "Slow" being relative; I think we're in for a generation of decline, not one overnight crash.

But I do want to take issue with the CME thing. They have historically been pretty regular. The last one of any significance was in 1989; it shut down Quebec and most of the northeastern state for a couple of days; a study done last year said it would take 4 years to repair the damage if it happened now.

The last major one was in 1859, and they usually happen every century or so, so we are due. Not that I think it will happen any time soon, but it is a possibility.

I'm writing a prepper type YA novel with a CME as the premise for a catastrophe. If anyone wants to read it, I'll send it around when I'm done.

Anonymous said...

fitts on cheney's fluffermutter...

FA... darwin on the clueless...

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."

wv... hypla. aka, dick cheney's fluffermutter!


Anonymous said...

ras,,, please send it my way. thx.. p

wv... asheo. asshole?

Anonymous said...


To wrest the talking stick from Rp & Wizard for a moment, I would like to briefly give my take on these and other such events. Firstly CME's I believe are the result of the spokes of the galaxy swinging past us and astronomers will know more or less the duration of this activity. It has happened before and it will happen again, it will be with us for a few generations then things will go back to normal. As for the rest, they are all important or appear to be so. It was not rp's fault that Elnin was a no show, it easily could have been. Planet X, I have always been skeptical about but that is not the point. The fact is that there is always some new event, some new talking point to occupy the thinking of the informed. I could pick a thousand examples but here are a few at random that had us all engaged but have now fallen off the bottom of the list; the gulf oil spill and the effect on life of the detergent used in the clean up; Cheney's missing nuke; The Patriot and Military Commissions Acts; DU even agent orange – how far do you want to go back. There are a couple of subjects which seem to be on life's back burner and never completely go away, the holocaust but not the Armenian or Rwanda ones and Palestine however even the Arab leaders seem to have lost interest in this one. These other examples are to keep thinking people engaged and diverted from the real subjects of the level of bank fraud being perpetrated on the world population together with the effects of planned economic collapse and resource depletion together with the never mentioned subject of the pediofcracy. There is nothing wrong with knowing and discussing things on the sidelines of life but we should never take our eye off the ball.

Ras, pleased all worked out okay.
You know, the USA could come up with the same solution as Russia for all those abandoned orphans especially the boys. Give them a sense of purpose and belonging by enrolling them in the Military Academy.

You can put me on your mailing list for the new one and also for the one you previously sent me, if it is still available, which I started, got diverted from and then the computer crashed. I think it was called “The Light of Redorah”. When I got the new computer I changed the e mail address so I will be sending this around to you and the other regulars. Thanks.


rockpicker said...

Point of no return? Sounds kinda dire, don't it?

rockpicker said...

Helen Caldicott, the whacko, anti-nuclear activist at it again...

BTW, in case you haven't heard, the Japan government has announced plans to ship tsunami-destroyed debris to Tokyo, where it will be incinerated in furnaces with tall smokestacks. The operation is slated to run for 2.5 years. Where do you suppose all that nuclear contamination will end up?

Anonymous said...

RAS, regarding the CME's, I wrote this:

" Regarding significant CME's, no doubt they occur, but they are rare to the extent that statistically its unlikely that one of the scale you describe would happen, say, in our lifetimes "

And the relevant part is " one of the scale " which related to this RP wrote:

" And, how would a full-on X-class killer cme that takes down the planetary grid effect your imagined collapse scenario? Some say, with total loss of electricity, ninety per cent of the American population will be dead within six months "

Yes, I know CME's have affected humans electronics in big ways in recent memory, but, my contention was that we very well will not see a CME so large that, as RP cited:

" ninety per cent of the American population will be dead within six months "

And as a reminder I said this:

" statistically its unlikely "

But in putting it that way, my phrasing does not imply that it is then " not possible ". Even as it is unlikely in the timeframe I posed, to take a phrase from the Weather Channel " It could happen tomorrow " :-)

RP, go to my blog:

And read every bit of information back to the beginning, SC1, which of course you won't, but if you did, there is no way you can say that I have any illusions about what we are facing, and that I'm waiting for some " promised land ". Information I put there I did so because I thought it was important, had merit.

In thinking about what will happen, slow collapse, fast collapse, these phrases are so basic and simple in describing a process that will be incredibly complex with myriad facets. So if I say I'm inclined to think things may unwind/collapse more slowly the ideas about what I think that means are involving a whole lot of things that are not said within the simple phrase, " slower collapse ".

Now my brother thinks everything is poised to collapse like a house of cards, completly collapse anytime, like the world trade center, buildings gone, total destruction. That does not seem likely to me. Now RAS discusses her idea of an unwinding of things over a generation, and that seems more plausible to my mind. My longer collapse leanings does not discount that we are all heading for increasingly harsher conditions with major shocks along the way, and I'd say that is for the foreseable future. Now this does not mean that something else could not come along of such consequence that a great downfall could occur much more quickly and dramatically, like as one example a world wide nuclear conflict.

SATs, regarding this you wrote:

" It was not rp's fault that Elnin was a no show, it easily could have been "

As per NASA info the closest Elenin came to earth was 22 million miles, and as stated by one scientist your station wagon will have far more gravitational effect on earth than Elenin ever will. Elenin did what the scientist said it would, be a non event. It therefore could not have been a danger, because its path in reality was never going to be close enough to the earth to cause anything noticeble of consequence.


Anonymous said...

RP, for you:

The Magic of Reality: How We Know What's Really True

....The universe is fascinating and beautiful all by itself, without any help from fairy tales. In this sense, reality truly is magical....


Anonymous said...

And RP, something to listen to while you are quietly pondering what is :-)

The Gates of Reality

....pure evocation, and enough material for a thousand dreams....


Anonymous said...

RAS, I said " her " in reference to you, but it seems I remember now that you may be a " he ". Which ever it is I appreciate your thoughts :-)


Anonymous said...

I don't know... I think I'm in the fast crash corner. Why? Well, things move faster than they ever have in human history. Trades move at miliseconds. Communication is practically instant. AND, TPTB can dump the shit on us any time they wish in no time at all.

I just sent a scathing Letter to the Editor of the Salt Lake Tribune in response to their absolutley repulsive editorial approving of President Telepromter's killing of an American citizen.

If they print it, I might have to post it here, but it probably won't. It was pretty scathing. I mean, on-fire kinda scathing. Like, "You mutherfuckers are fucing idiots!" scathing.

Well, as of today, Fall has pounced. We're getting some narly cold, wet and windy weather in Mormon HQ and I doubt if my tomatoes will make it through the next couple of days. But, Summer lingered a bit and I am grateful to have harvested (talk'in like a real farmer, eh?) as much as I did.


Anonymous said...

Check out the WCM " vision statement " within this recent post at Survival Acres. Sums up alot pretty darn nicely I'd say. Its about WCM quiting. Also great thoughts as usual from John.

Calling It Quits

And it was good to see John at the end write these feelings:

" Just don’t call it quits. I’m not, I have no intention of ever doing that. I doubt the world is a better place because of my own existence, but I can’t simply give up. Life is a journey, not a destination and I find this whole unraveling “interesting”, even if difficult. I’m interested in seeing the next generation embrace all the essential things we didn’t.

I hope they do "


murph said...

Hey Randy,

Glad you got some harvest in before it turned cold. Our harvest was not near as abundant as last year. Not much left over for bartering or selling. It's turned cold here. Down at or under freezing temps at night, 40's and 50's during the day. Having to put a fire in the greenhouse every night to squeeze out the last of the squash and tomatoes. The pole beans gave us two beans this year. Last year we had so much that we gave away quite a bit.

Your screaming at the paper piece brings up a good subject. At what point is it legitimate for the government to impose on it's citizens in the name of security?

Every major war this country has taken part in from the beginning revolution to now has involved the government leaning on citizens. Of course this country has had only two wars fought here; the revolution and civil war. If we were invaded I imagine oppression by the government would become even more severe.

I tried to find out a bit about the dude Anwar al-Awlaki. Was he American born? I couldn't find anything on that. He is called by the government a Yemeni American, sort of like Afro American? According to Wiki he was hiding out in Yemen and that government had a dead or alive capture out on him. Because of the political situation around the whole terrorist thing, I rather suspect there was a lot more to his killing that we know about. However sending drones in to get him sure sounds suspicious to me.

I can't help but ask when other US citizens are going to be targeted and taken out by drones? A weird world we are living in.

murph said...


Yup, that last post by John was very good indeed. Glad he hasn't decided to quit writing, I enjoy his rants for sure.

Anonymous said...

murph... studying lincoln and those times and i can't help but wonder what sort of conversations we'd be having here around the fire if that era were time-machined forward to today... p

rockpicker said...

P; We'd probably be discussing 'state's rights' a lot more than we do now. A rant videoed from the Occupy Wall Street action mentioned that very point.

Another factor to consider is that in Lincoln's day, the senate was appointed by House members, not elected by general election. I believe it's much easier now for powerful corporations to place, or influence, senators who will do their bidding. I'd like to know more about the ratification process that allowed the amendment that changed how the senate is chosen, because I've heard researchers claim it was never properly ratified, but simply declared ratified. Apparently, in some state houses, there is no record of that particular ratification vote.

Anonymous said...

Randy, On that issue of the assasination of the US citizen Anwar I talked with my Mom for whom Fox News is gospel about it. She has no problem with the killing so I said then your fine if the Pres says your a bad person, takes you out, no due process whatsoever, just a thumbs down. She said that Anwar was a bad guy and thats what makes it ok. She is living in a dream world on many issues of consequence.

Like Murph questioning what really Anwar is all about, I am not buying one bit the BS spewed by the PTB about him. For the US, the mindset is, you are either with us, or against us, black and white, against us for any reason then you are a Terrorist and can be subject to assasination or being held indefinitely with no possibility for any justice. These are the kind of tool Dictators running corrupt empires love to have at their disposal. I wonder to like Murph how long will it be till they do one of these assasinations on US soil.


rockpicker said...

HSW; What do you think happened to John P. Wheeler III? Or Matt Simmons?

Political enemies who wouldn't shut up, taken out with whatever method was most expedient. Now they're using drones, but they have lots of ways and means.

Essentially, that issue is what the Collateral Damage report Palooka put up last weekend centered on. Wipe out all the witnesses.

Anonymous said...

Please can it be Hilary?

Anonymous said...

Here's Glenn Greenwald's take on it Al-Awlaki's murder by CIA. I like how this guy thinks -and he writes in a way that's easy for a beer-chugging hommiie like me to understand.

Oh, and I think Simmons was "suicided."


rockpicker said...

From Steve Quayle's site:

"Secret Panel Can Put Americans On 'Kill List': American militants like Anwar al-Awlaki are placed on a kill or capture list by a secretive panel of senior government officials, which then informs the president of its decisions, according to officials. There is no public record of the operations or decisions of the panel, which is a subset of the White House's National Security Council, several current and former officials said. Neither is there any law establishing its existence or setting out the rules by which it is supposed to operate. more"

Anonymous said...


Didn't this panel come to light during Cheney's reign? I seem to remember something about it then.

HSW, I bow to your better knowledge re Elnin. To be honest I stopped following it so I was just winging the comment. Re the station wagon comment, it reminded me of a spoof UK sale of goods act for engineers. The sale of goods act states that goods must be of merchantable quality and fit for the purpose they were intended. So if you use your Slasinger tennis racquet for straining spaghetti then you can't take it back to the shop and say the frame had warped because you didn't use it for the purpose intended. The guy who wrote the spoof said all heavy objects should carry a warning to say they are attracted to all other objects in the universe directly according to the product of their masses and inversely according to the square of their distances apart. Ach, it seemed funnier when I read it than when I just re wrote it.

Anonymous said...

RP, I had not heard of the Wheeler fellow but regarding Simmons, the circumstance sure look to me like he was taken out to shut him up. Right before his death, which you probably know well already, he was spilling alot of stuff on the MSM about multiple leaks issueing forth from the sea floor beyond the Macando drill hole ( bad press for BP and all corporate lovers of oil drilling profits ), which he said indicated the well pipe was being circumvented somewhere down deep in the bore hole.

Yeah I know RP, these elite scum have lots of ways to shut people up.

Its been good to see all the coverage on Keith Olberman's program and on Free Speech TV and democracy now of the Occupy Wall Street protest. I saw where this new anchor gal on CNN was deriding the protest with her lame and idiotic " seriously " commentary.

Alot of the MSM are doing their best to portray the protest in a bad light, looking hard to find persons who are poor spoken to paint the movement as being a big joke, but I'd say its the first real rumblings of what will be lots more to come. At least thats what I'm hoping will happen. Alot of real good speakers today at the various rallies out there in NY.

Well I'm headed up to Northern California to our property near Lake Shasta for a week with the family. We will be camping out and visiting with my brother so I won't be able to check in during that time. RP I was talking with my bro today and as I mentioned before he, like you, thinks a fast crash is coming. Well, if thats the way it goes we will find out pretty soon. Either way, fast or slower we all know its downhill from here. Take care gang and I'll catch up with all of your ongoing discussions when I get back :-)


Anonymous said...

murph... isn't states rights exactly part of the mantra of the tea party et al? ya know, they wanna take the power away from the fed and bring it all back home as if thats gonna solve all the problems. what they seem to ignore in this is that the states and locals are just as fucked up as the fed. you and FA know this first hand. more and more people everywhere are gettin a dose of local and/or state power gone mad. here's another exasperating example...

WI Judge to Zinniker, FTCLDF: No “Fundamental Right to Own a Cow, or Consume Its Milk… Am I Making Myself Clear?”

On August 12, Judge Fiedler issued a ruling denying a motion by the Zinnikers, Nourished by Nature, Karp and Loiselle for a judgment that the boarding agreement the Zinnikers had with the cow owners was in compliance with Wisconsin law.

In his opinion the Judge rejected out of hand the Zinniker plaintiffs’ argument that they had a fundamental right to possess, use and enjoy their property (including “a fundamental right to own a cow, and to use their cows in a manner that does not cause harm a third party”); he stated this claim was “wholly without merit.”

The judge went on to hold that the plaintiffs were operating a dairy farm and were therefore subject to the requirements of Wisconsin’s dairy code.

Wanting to get more specific reasons for the judge’s dismissal of their rights, the Zinniker plaintiffs filed a Motion for Clarification with the court.

On September 9, Judge Fiedler issued his decision on the motion, stating that the court’s August 12 denial of plaintiffs’ motion for judgment meant the following:

(1) Plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to own and use a dairy cow or a dairy herd;

(2) Plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to consume the milk from their own cow;

(3) Plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to board their cow at the farm of a farmer;

(4) The Zinniker Plaintiffs’ private contract does not fall outside the scope of the States’ police power;

(5) Plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to produce and consume the foods of their choice;

(6) DATCP [Wisconsin Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection] . . . had jurisdiction to regulate the Zinniker Plaintiffs’ conduct.

With this sweeping denial of basic rights, the judge refused to recognize any distinction between public and private activity; moreover, he was holding that the government had the power to regulate people’s efforts to grow and raise their own food.

... p

Anonymous said...

crap like the above is so pervasive now we have to be pro-active on a daily basis in mitigating the impact on the psyche just to keep from going insane or absoultely hopeless in the face of it. lotta ways we do that here in the woods north of atl and occasionally comes an opportunity so tempting we're willing to commit a couple months entertainment budget toward it. such was the case night before last when we went in to town to the variety theatre to catch kd lang's siss bang boom show. the variety's an old movie theatre that seats at most about 1100 with not a bad seat amoung em.

kd on stage in an 1100 seat venue! that tony bennett calls her the best damn female singer of her generation doesn't even come close. i don't know how anybody pumpin red blood could not be taken by the gift that is kd doin what she was born to do. coming away to never be the same again. captured. by a barefoot 50 year old big-time butch with spiked hair. captivated by kd. in a good and soul inspiring way for a change. and the homo haters want ya to believe god made a mistake! imagine, you're in the first row of the balcony overlooking this....

In 2004, Stephen Holden of The New York Times wrote: "Few singers command such perfection of pitch. Her voice, at once beautiful and unadorned and softened with a veil of smoke, invariably hits the middle of a note and remains there. She discreetly flaunted her technique, drawing out notes and shading them from sustained cries into softer, vibrato-laden murmurs. She balanced her commitment to the material with humor, projecting a twinkling merriment behind it all."

thats exactly what we saw. and that perfect pitch is so important to her she had a guitar tech at stage right tuning before every instrument change. and between her and the band there were a lot of them. wadda treat. and what a victory for life itself.

i'm a lyric guy so cohen's lyric in itself inspires wonder. and ya know, sometimes ya can make lyrics mean whatever ya want em to mean. maybe in this case as it applies to the relationship between the state and the people who eventually woke up and found themselves in the 3rd verse.

and now we're in 4th verse...

i heard there was a secret chord
that david played, and it pleased the lord
but you don't really care for music, do ya
well it goes like this
the forth, the fifth
the minor fall, the major lift
the baffled king composing hallelujuh





well your faith was strong but you needed proof
you saw her bathing on the roof
her beauty in the moonlight overthrew ya
well she tied you to her kitchen chair
she broke your throne and she cut your hair
and from your lips she drew a hallelujah

baby ive been here before
ive seen this room and ive walked the floor
used to live alone before i knew ya
but i've seen your flag on the marble arch
our love is not a victory march
its a cold and its a broken hallelujah

maybe there's a god above
but all i've ever learned from love
was how to shoot somebody who ourdrew ya
its not a cry that you hear at night
its not someone who's seen the light
its a cold and broken hallelujah




hallelujah... p

Anonymous said...

Hey, this past weekend wifeepoo and I went south to Zion Natiional Park. Wow. Pretty freak'in awesome, I gotta tell ya. Took a ton of pictures and had a great time eventhough I was fighting a cold. Looking at all of that beauty makes the crap that we humans create for ourselves seem so small.

Reminds me of a scene in a movie called "Grand Canyon." Danny Glover is looking out over the canyon and says, "These rocks.... they're just laughing at us."

Well, my brother and his family are going to AZ to visit my Ma in Prescott in November and will head on up to the Grand Canyon where I will meet them. They have never been there before so this will be a real treat for them.

The Grand Canyon is always a treat for me.


Anonymous said...

sorry murph, that thing this morn was a re to RP.

mrs p said...

Loved this post Murph. and the followup from HSW and your replies all raises many more issues so interesting. Really enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts and the photos. Murph resembles a bit like our local Volvo Mechanic who recycles old Volvos mostly wagons to the locals here.

Coming from a family that never had money, at least not the generation I was born into...even though both of my parents were educated, it was an easier time if there is such a thing. A more innocent time. Yet dear old dad would say of the PTB, they all ride the same bus home. Whatever that means.

We were raised in the 50's with that notion that money was the root of all evil and there was no glorification or respect towards anyone based on their income or holdings in fact more often than not these people were the most probelmatic, unstable, quirky and just plain assholes in their behavior towards all life. Why is that? Not saying all people of wealth are jerks just maybe 60/40 don't know but that has been my experience. Of course now we have wonderful Fox Entertainment which back then didn't exist. So now even poor people are brainwashed with scum.

What was it that Ghandi said, something like, You don't need wealth to be clean, neat or dignified. You might need water though and a few good books.

I just feel like we're all just slaves at some level or antoher.
When one has to go out into the steet and yell it means there has been such a gross ineqality created at so many levels that the system is on tilt. The extreme inequalities here have brought forth outrage and the only way to fix it is to take extreme meassures towards a reverse of all that is Wall Street. It won't change until it all collapses because the NINNYS involved have blinders on.

The so-called democracy is a complete failure in that the 99% have no voice especially if attempting to have a voice means being maced and beaten. This is not America. This isn't the freedom we've been fighting for.

A hard pill to swallow for many of us but this Capitalism thing cannot work due to the extreme corruptive greed gone wild and the true nature of the beast itself. We must have a socialistic style democracy and reverse all the right wing cah-cah as soon as possible. Don't see that happening in a graceful way. But nature will take it's course, seems it already has.

It's really a shame so many people are misinformed about their own realities because they're so easily influence by the Ruppert Murdochs of the world and end up voting against their own interests.
And Socialism is a dirty word to them as they know only fear.

I'm going to have some chocolate pudding now right after I trim the basil which has turned into a jungle and is probably radioactive after the rains we just had. We could make glow in the dark pesto.

Cheers and love to all. Great post and comments! mrs p

Anonymous said...


Mrs P Well said but just wait until the PTB ban chocolate pudding, that will have you out in the sheet shouting.

Anonymous said...



On point 1 of that court ruling - (1) Plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to own and use a dairy cow or a dairy herd; I assume that the ruling does not specifically apply to the plaintiffs alone, rather to all individuals. Since in law a company exists as a person and the directors are just administrators for that person, does this mean that it is now illegal for all dairy companies to own cattle in Wisconsin. In that case would it then be legal for the public to set all such dairy herds free or at least complain to the police that dairy herds were being held in contempt of this court ruling? I guess that a test of the ruling on these grounds could be interesting.

murph said...

Mrs P,

Capitalism has several main faults. It depends on cheap labor, it depends on infinite supplies of cheap resources and power, and it is predicated on earning compound interest and infinite growth, as well as always being a corrupt system and subject to extreme greed.

I get amused when this is presented to die hard capitalist advocates. Immediately, voices become louder and more strident. On the web, it becomes capital letters and a plethora of non-sequitar arguments and honest to god tautologies. I keep asking them if they are in the top 20% of wage earners and if they aren't, what has the system done for you in the last 15 years? One of the most interesting arguments centers around giving money to the bankers because they are the ones that finance start up companies and increase employment.

My personal experience is more like 80-20 percent weighted in the jerk department. LOL For me 60/40 is very optimistic.

Your statement about worshiping the Murdoch's of this world is right on. I like to warn people to be very careful about who you idolize.

Yup, I also think we need to get rid of the right wing bull shit, but also the left wing bull shit. How many policies that are labeled left wing have IN THE LONG RUN worked well? Seems to me that the left wing nanny state doesn't work either.

Anonymous said...

SATS.. agree. in fact, appears to me if that ruling is lawful there is no fundamental right to legal claim to own or use a damn thing in this country unless its specifically written into the law!

i don't have a prob with the ownership part. the indiginous seem to have gotten along well without it and the philosophical argument supporting that is just as valid as the contrary. its the 'no claim to use' part that bothers me. we'd all starve if we couldn't use resources.

were it not for the fact thats its obvious in far too many cases like this that the judge is in somebody's pocket and there's no such thing as justice i'd be dissapointed i didn't become a lawyer cuz one could have a hellofa lotta fun with just this sort of ignorant and short-sighted crap on the part of the courts... p

Anonymous said...

Comment heard on a street in Missoula over the weekend:

"I'll believe a corporation is a person when the State of Texas executes one!"


Anonymous said...

Charlie McGrath was in Missoula Saturday for an Occupy Missoula rally.


freeacre said...

Holy Cow, p. That k.d. Lang interpretation of Leonard Cohen's "Halleluiah." More than perfect pitch and outrageous breath capacity, it seemed Tantric. Her range included not just sound, but the whole range of emotions from elation to abject suffering. Then she owned them all and shared them with God. Or, she could have... Anyway, I thought her delivery was more than up to Cohen's Buddhism. She's a gift to the world. Boy, just imagine that sound flowing out of you. That must have been some night for you guys.

I'd like my last thought to be, "Hallelujah."

Zoner said...

Just thought I'd drop in and say hello, and also impart my wisdom to all of you in these somewhat confusing times.

After a decade spent "waking up", chasing rabbits down various holes, seeing wisdom put forth by folks I thought had something figured out only to see that they were likely trying to lead us down a path, and thinking I wanted to "figure it all out" so I could do that one perfect thing that would fix it all or at least allow me to escape "life", here is what I came up with;

I don't know.

I'm OK with that. Now I have more time to walk with my kids and teach them about nature, laugh at ridiculous stuff like "The Trailer Park Boys", and play my guitar. A sadness remains for those who are spinning out of control or desperately trying to dig up the next, greatest "we're doomed" posting on YouTube, etc....

If that is what is needed, I honor that, too. I just can't get wrapped up in it because it has served me poorly. Do the best you can in the moment and please don't forget to include a touch of gratitude in each day to whatever it is that keeps flowing through us and allowing us a new chance every day to make the choice between, well, whatever it is that you are confronted with at the time.

All my best and deep gratitude for this warming fire.

Anonymous said...

FA... you hit de nail on de head. from what i've read kd is a practitionerer of the tantra and old school of tibetan buddhism.

z's too humble to say anything about it but for those of you that don't know he's part of a rock opera soon to debut...

Z... is dying to make it still a go? as for dying to know... i've been possessed w/the same drive only my objective is to escape the suffering and misery thats haunted life. or better put, explain it at least in some way that makes some sense cuz nothing ever has. and hopefully offer some promise of delivery from it... p

wv... holli. holy chit!!

Zoner said...

p, thanks for the kind words and yes - DTMI will be running 2 nights, February 17&18 at The Southern Theater in Minneapolis (Great Spirit willing).

If you would have asked me this question one week ago, I would have said no, as I had been fired (!?!) and the whole project then scrapped after a mutiny by the masses over long unresolved issues that somehow are now resolved. Seems like the simple act of communication has gotten, I don't know, stickier lately but some true healing is going on where folks around me are willing to really look at what is driving all the conflicts. Musicians - go figure!

Grateful I am, as one of the few pure places of refuge right now is in front of a nice tube amp with a fine American guitar in my hand, a beer in its cozy, and the promise of bliss if I can just get out of my own way and let that thing that flows from the center of the Universe come in and play me for awhile. The rest is all just stories, or so I'm told.

Anyone finding themselves in Mpls when the show is on is of course comped tickets and after-party goodies!

Now to go kick someone's ass for not updating the website for several weeks.........

wv; stici. Yeah, I think I mentioned that!

freeacre said...

All the best, Zoner, to you and your band. I hope the rock opera is a blast for you.

I, too, have been seduced by the Intellect - obsessed with "understanding" and "knowing what is going on," I can while away hours, big hunks of days and years, trying to put it all together in my head, despite wrong information, lies, deception, with enough truth thrown in to keep things going.

Gee whiz, p. I didn't know that k.d. is a Buddhist, too. Guess she really does the practice.

I feel a post coming on.

RAS said...

K.D. Lang has one of the best voices of all time, imo.

Fall makes me restless. I want to find a gypsy wagon and tootle around the country until winter closes in, then return to spend it in the nice cozy cabin we're building.

Zoner said...

Love me some KD as well - just don't tell my "rock" buddies!

wv; tryodyn. what one applies after all hope is lost and true malaise sets in.