Wednesday, September 12, 2012


Sorry, if you are a fan of our beginning photos we finally ran out of them for the time being. We will try and find something suitable for the next post. Murph

Prelude; Both Freeacre and myself have been up to our necks busy in the last number of months. This makes coming up with new postings difficult and we feel a bit lucky to get one a month out. Plus, the subject matter. I want to shy away from rehashing and rehashing the subject over and over. Anyone out there that would like to submit a guest post is more than welcome.

So, on to today's muttering. From Murph


Among the many information and blog sites on the internet, including this one, there is a lot of speculation about the motivations for what we see in decisions concerning policy going on in the government. While I may have some realizations of “what” is being done, I tend to have more interest in “why”.

I am going to make some assumptions. First, (and I consider it important), the folks that are making decisions that affect all of us are not stupid (low IQ). They are able to think and reason and draw conclusions. Second, they have access to the same information that you and I have and probably a lot more than we have access to. Third, I do not think every one of them as being evil SOB’s. Self-serving perhaps, but not part of the slimy reptilian fuckers that we tend to loath with vigor. (We have the reptilian names on file). Fourth, most of these decision makers if we met them in a social setting and unaware of their positions as decision makers would appear be friendly and interesting folks that are helpful members of their community and solid family people. I’ve met a few of them in this context.

So, if those assumptions have merit, what the hell is going on? Why do these decision makers make the decisions on policy that we rail against? Are we being paranoid or stupid in our own right? How can these folks continue to make decisions that sure enough appear to us to be damaging to communities, individuals and society as a whole? How can they continue to make decisions that are so damaging to the ecology of this planet that seems so obvious to us?

Because I do not think these folks are stupid, I have to then assume that their decisions are deliberate in intent. What is that intent? Near as I can tell it is that old bugaboo, New World Order. It appears to me that they consider themselves qualified, and with all the information that is kept from us, to run the world better than the teeming mass of the worlds population can. They also see it as a means of continuing their lives of privilege and wealth, which they so richly deserve. And not the least of it, they love the acquisition and use of power, the ability and means of enforcing dictates on the “common folks” for which they really have the up-most contempt.

In the previous post, GD and I agree mostly with the idea that we cannot legitimately accept the versions of history that is part of the mainstream thought. Even in the formation of this countries Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights and the Constitution, this contempt for the “common man” was evident when one bothers to actually dig into the origins and personalities that were involved in their formation.

In my own digging around into historical revisionism, (that part of the scholarly investigation of historical events that is not mainstream and largely contradictive to the mainstream) I find that this contempt has been a predominant influence for all of recorded history. In other words, us common folks that are definitely not part of the elite structure, have been bull shitted, lied to, exploited and screwed over from the beginning of civilization and centralization of power.

Now I realize that the “common man” has benefited by this structure, at least on a minimal level and sometimes very large level (the U.S. standard of living in comparison to most societies on this planet). But, when we do a cost/benefit study on the gross cost of this standard of living in destruction of environment, depletion of resources to live and any self-determination at an individual level, the benefit to cost ratio becomes very problematical. The folks that have benefited to the largest degree ain’t you and I, rather it is the elites.

So hell yes, these elites are going to continue to pursue policies that promote their perceived advantages and largess. Those policies are going to allow the minimum benefits to the “common man” to keep the unrest down and for the elites to continue their looting, manipulation, exploitation and suppression of whole societies.

Today, in the U.S. we have the largest disparity of wealth and privilege in the recorded history of the world, and in times past there have been some pretty large disparities. King Midas was a slacker in this department. We can go to museums and admire the remnants of the elites lavish living and read about the individual opulence of past societies and civilizations and they don’t come close. Yes, often in these long gone civilizations, the “common man” was worse off than now, and in a few instances were maybe better off than now. I’ll leave that debate for others to pursue. What makes our present western civilization different is the propaganda that the “common man” has the opportunity to get into that rarified circle of elites too. Oh yes, a few actually may get there. Got to keep the perception alive ya know. But even if an individual through hard work and innovation succeeds in achieving the financial success that is one of the prime markers of the elite class, getting into the inner circle of the actual decision makers is of far less probability. And yes again, a few actually make it. To do so, one has to adopt the value system and be good minions for extended amounts of time before they will be accepted.

Now of course, this kind of a rant is going to have its detractors. Accusations of being just jealous of those with more money and power, and being a part of the socialist movement to redistribute wealth to us that we haven’t earned, I read all the time. Of course there is also the criticism that I (and others) haven’t worked hard enough, haven’t made the right connections, haven’t been innovative enough, and more arguments to justify the concentration of wealth and privilege into fewer hands. This usually comes from those with some measure of wealth and privilege. Anything to make a person feel inadequate and guilty for not “getting mine and screw your complaints”.

It appears to me that in this countries history, that ignorance of how things have changed is one of our shortfalls. In the 50’s, during a time of great expansion, opportunities and social advancement, the taxes on the wealthy were at their highest. But, what we are told today is that taxing the wealthy, especially at those rates, will ruin the economy and have no benefit at all. In other words, there is absolutely no benefit to limiting the wealth and privilege of the elites and that a more egalitarian society is some kind of a bad demon and to be avoided at all cost. It still amazes me how we allow the vast rewards to a select few that make nothing, contribute nothing to society and predominantly cause so much grief and hardship to so many other folks.

It sure appears to me that our society is way out of balance these days and getting worse. When a sufficient amount of the citizens realize what is being done to them, I wonder if they will revolt. But, the bottom line is that we have allowed it, in most cases have sanctioned it for the false hope of getting there ourselves. It’s gonna take some really big changes in attitudes to reverse our exploitation.


murph said...

For those interested, SATS has the last comment on the previous post that is good.

Anonymous said...


Too kind Murph ;-)

What is their real intentions / agenda? Coincidentally, this arrived at exactly the same time as this new post.

It is one of those Avaaz sign the petition thingies. I don't really know how effective Avaaz really is. One thing I have noticed with them is that when they do claim to have been effective in stopping something bad, a month or so later the same thing appears around a different corner in a slightly modified form. The thing it is useful for is that it puts most of the assaults by the big guys on the little guys in one place.

One of my favourite John Paul Getty quotes is that he once said “Whenever I am at one of these well to do social functions everyone wants to come up to me and tell me how they made their last million but so far no one has come up to me and told me how they made their first million.”

These magnates that Murph speaks of can only attain their wealth because of technology replacing jobs whilst prices stay the same or are increased, or manufacturing is carried out where labour is cheap (China, Philippines etc) or where services are cheap (India). I wonder what would happen if we called the bluff of these so called “Men of excellence” *. If we taxed them to the 1950's levels would they clear off and would we miss them if they were gone? It sure would be a big bump in the road but could we regroup and form a better society without them. When Putin first became president of Russia he threw out the so called oilgarchs and they managed to get by without them. China has found a home market as well as an export market and its people are now demanding increased wages so they can afford the consumer goods that are being projected towards them. The cheap labour advantage is being gradually eroded. Any thoughts?

* “Men of excellence” came from a speech by Peter Lilley who later became a financial secretary to the treasury in the Thatcher government.

Anonymous said...

re that Avaaz sign the petition thingie: Is it a good idea to put your name, email, and postcode, onto a list labelling yourself as (insert gov control label- subversive or whatever) to be electronically enshrined for all eternity?


Some of it is obvious, Power, control, hegemony etc. but the context is not obvious, i.e. their timeline/long term outlook seems to be based on the long game, multi decade, generational, arguably multi century or thousands of years, "bloodline" time-scale.

Would it be useful to list, or discuss, some of the "outside the box" theories on the table?

Is it a kind of genetic self preservation, continued hegemony for the bloodline? But then why trash the environment? Do they know something we don't? Coming Ice age, other planetary disaster negating environmental preservation, or something more off the wall?

David Ickes stuff seems focused on the nearer term (multi decade) yet includes a multi millennia angle/origin. Is the "bloodline" part alien, hybrid, hinting at complete takeover? Or rather than takeover are we just an experiment, is the Earth akin to a throwaway Petri dish to them?

I watched an interesting discussion with a geneticist about Nigel Kerners latest book "Greys Aliens and the Harvesting of Souls" which suggested a plausible longer term scenario that dovetails with DIs work. Here is a short interview with the author, read the description for the general gist

If the greys are biological autonomous "robots" that killed off their creators, now running a genetic experiment with the human race in order to find the missing "soul" they're looking for, it might explain all the poisons, nuclear muck, dieoffs, genocide etc. as controls in their genetic experiment.

Bit off the wall I agree, but we ain't going to find the answers in a classical history/science textbook that's for sure.

Huxleys "brave new world" or 1984 type stuff suggests complete control of a slave race by overseers, but then again, why trash the planet?

What else is on the table? Gd.

Anonymous said...

that interview was in 11 parts, I linked part 9, here's part 1 Gd

Anonymous said...


Gd, David griffin goes off on that tangent. It is an insanely long read though.

David Icke is a little bit off the wall for me. He seems the sort of guy who will just repeat any lunatic thing he is told without question.

murph said...


Your question about "why trash the environment" is a good question in the context of this posting. It is one that I ponder over on a regular basis.

I figure there are at least a couple of reasons. One is a pretty far out one, that it is aliens that are in charge and have an agenda that we don't know about. Since we really don't have any way of establishing the truth of that now or a means of countering it, I will put that one aside.

So, if I assume that the PTB are human and not alien with some kind of agenda, what is left. That these human PTB's are ignorant of the consequences (I find that hard to accept) or don't care or are aware of something coming down the road that they are not sharing with us commoners. Remember the movie "2012? In essence, the PTB knew there was a disaster coming and so they prepared some lifeboats at hideous expense to continue the human race, and in the movie, managed to keep the rest of the earth inhabitants in ignorance about it for years while they did the preparations.

I suppose that something similar could be going on. Especially with the documented vast underground installations that we know about. I also presume that you are aware of the underground renovations at considerable expense under the capital building in D.C. that nobody in power wants to talk about. It sure appears to me that the rich and powerful are preparing for something. Sure wish I know what it was.

Perhaps trashing the environment is the economic means to do these preparations because they know that in the end it won't make a bit of difference?

We have pretty compelling evidence and knowledge of consequences of what will happen if present policies are continued concerning the trashing of the environment. The PTB have this same information. They either flat out don't believe the evidence or consider it immaterial in the the bigger picture. Because the evidence is so compelling, I have to fall on the side of their knowing it is immaterial for some reason that they aren't telling us about it.

I guess that puts me into the very pessimistic conspiracy groups.

nina said...

Wonderful timely post Murph.

They don't have an agenda anymore, other than to look smart and successful to buying nations which is what salesmen do, because they appear unable to tackle any of the overarching problems facing them, facing us, facing civilization and the planet, all their attempts to resuscitate credibility are failing in the daylight of reality. The natural results of overpopulation, resource extinction and environmental contamination are taking their toll and they are at the point of freely admitting the only trick they know is throwing money around to create an appearance of power and control, while the real abusers walk free. And the real abusers? They were bound to come along as population figures rose. Put enough rats into a cage and they fight to the death. The wheels of justice can only creak along unable to catch up with the overflow. It was a nice try there for awhile, but it has far exceeded its original intentions.
The mob won, but what have they won? At what cost to our world?

Hotspringswizard said...

Good insights there Murph as usual. And Nina offers up more of the same.

Sats I saw in one of your recent post you suggest that large parts of history are not accurate accountings. Now this is surely true. On the other hand one that says " reject all history " is just plain incorrect. Its akin to saying there is no truth on TV. That kind of notion is just plain stupid to put it bluntly. It goes the same for one my friends notion that there is nothing true on the internet. There is nothing equivocal implied when you use the word " all ".

Now, for GD to make such a statement, " reject all history ", he would have to know all of the history in the world thats ever been, and he would then have to also know the actual complete true history in the world thats ever been for comparison, be able to without error judge the true merits of each, in order to accurately say " reject all history ". Is there anybody here who are incapable ( besides GD ) of seeing just how arrogant that is? Are you a God GD, all knowing being?

Now as for GD's described system of things known and unknown when it comes to what people are aware of, it reminds me of Rumsfeld " things we think we know " bit back in the Bush Years. Its a realy simplistic way of describing what is vastly more complex on myriad levels. And GD, your bit " the truth will smack you upside the head " just further illustrates your tone that comes across clearly, your right all of the time, as in, " reject all history ".

Now I see GD you are offering up that perhaps Space Aliens are running things, and are the evil beings behind what ills humanity. I'll say it doesn't suprise me that you would come up with that GD :-)

Regarding trashing the planet, thats the nature of the human animal ( in a general sense ), say like Easter island history ( which I know GD says to reject ), they did not fail because there was some grand conspicracy of the rulers there to just trash the place and its ecosystem, doing this because they new something much " bigger " was coming along that would make everything irrelevant anyway.

Its akin to yeast introduced into a rich container of sugar, and that sugar for us was hydrocarbon energy. The yeast don't have a conspiracy in mind, they just do what they are genetically programed to do, and will drastically proliferate, use up the energy, pollute their environment with their waste, then there numbers will collapse.

Our world is getting trashed not because of some grand plan of aliens, run amock reptiles, etc. You really think all of the PTB all across the world are colluding to destroy the environment? There just a bunch of yeast ( a bit more complex albeit ) making hay while the hay is good.

The human brain has evolved for short term more immediate considerations, and the realatively short durration that humans societies have become more organized and really large have not provided the vast expanses of time it would take to change the evolved artchitecture in our minds, so we as the animals we are continue to follow the same patterns.

Hydrocarbon energy is the sugar, we are the yeast, the outcome of our internal mental programs will continue humans down the road they are currently on, the system will collapse in various stages, of course in a more complex way than a bottle of greedy little yeast :-)

Now, I'm waiting for GD to finally say, " reject all that HSW says " :-)

Anonymous said...


I don't remember saying reject all history, that sure isn't like me and not what I believe. I can't imagine in what context I would have used something like this. Where was it and I will have another look and try to find the meaning behind what I actually did say.

Hotspringswizard said...

Sats, you have mis-interpretted what I wrote. Here is the part that pertains to you " Sats I saw in one of your recent post you suggest that large parts of history are not accurate accountings. Now this is surely true ", on the other hand " reject all history " is what GD wrote, not you.

So to clarify further, your comment about considerations of history made sense, while on the other hand GD's " reject all history " is a notion that could only be made by an all knowing god, which apparently GD thinks he is :-)

freeacre said...

Let us not forget the Campfire "talking stick" protocol which encourages the speaking of your truth, and not entering into a personal judgement against another. We all have a piece of it, and we put the pieces together as we see fit. This is supposed to be a safe place to express ourselves.

After all, Langusta (Montana's cricket, dead for two years now) is still an honored member of this council. So, aliens are not too far-fetched for me.

On the topic of the post... I think it was easier to collect more taxes from the rich and connected back in the day when they didn't have alternative populations of workers and infrastructure to choose from. Now, China and India and most of the developing world is better educated that our workers, will work for less, and have the high speed internet and other infrastructure. So, without tariffs or some what to level the playing field, we don't have much leverage anymore. Additionally, our markets are saturated and theirs are not yet. So maybe it falls to us to show the world how to "contract" with some sort of grace. Not that we will actually do it...

nina said...

All the past experiences where they could have taken the honorable and high moral ground and been an example for the world's admiration and emulation, have been historically badly botched. So badly in fact, all sorts of new and absurd forays in crisis management and citizen scrutiny come into being, resulting in the usual diversionary finger-pointing accompanied by the manipulation of statistics to show grand success where there is none. As you say, its spread far and wide globally, but have our zealots EVER chosen grace?
They've acknowledged the problems (stated clearly over the past two weeks in campaign speeches) which gives them more than ample opportunity to resolve them. But has any candidate in the past 50 or so years who actually made it into office addressed those items adequately? With grace? And these are the very people who have the money and education to handle it, but something serious was apparently lacking in the development of the human being, and that would be compassion.

Dear God, please don't let the Dharma become just a vote getting talking point.

freeacre said...

lol.. you got that right, Sister! The asshats in charge have never and will never know or exhibit grace.

But I meant "us," the Troutpeople, the Love Tribe, Charles' 12% or 7%, whatever it was - the vanguard. Most of us are living simply, shunning the greedy bastards. Figuring out ways to keep a roof over our heads without going corporate. I think it would begin by cultivating a sense of "enough" or "plenty."

Maybe I am just kidding myself. Maybe it would be more like getting all dressed up and going down in the Titanic. I just don't want to shut the doors of my imagination to the possibility that perhaps our kids will come up with some new solutions that would keep them alive and free in the years ahead.

Hotspringswizard said...

Freeacre, a Cricket is a member of this council? Ok, I better leave that one alone. Only because its MF's Cricket :-)

Regarding Aliens, its a big universe, how big we do not know, so I certainly think its very probable that there are other complex forms of matter, which some folks might refer to as " life forms ", doing whatever they are inclined to do in accordance with their own unique and specific material architecture.

But considering this idea of any aliens that might be here on earth, specifically the idea that they may be running the big show, doing the dirty deeds, I doubt that very seriously.

So this is a bit tongue in cheek but it makes my point. These aliens came here from somewhere very, unfathonably far away. Quite a feat in itself. Of course aliens from all over the universe know that the most ultimate thing an alien can strive for is to go to Earth, set up shop as a dirty scumbab politician, a loathsome Jabba the Hut type corporation kingpin, or whatever position of power that allows them to rake in the cash, gold, stock options, etc, so they can funnel that booty to an offshore accout. Why they would not just send their treasure back home to Nebadon eludes me but I digress.

So along with building up the riches, the likes of which the rest of the unlucky aliens around the universe would just kill to get their hands on, they go on to have fun with other actvities, like myriad forms of pillaging the helpless and downtroden, and wrecking every part of the biosphere ecosystems that their advance alien brains can think of, why, of cours so they can capatilize of the mayhem to make even more riches. Now of course it does not help that they cannot use these types of wealth in any other part of the universe, but thats not really the point now is it because aliens just like being really ruthless and screwing things up for humans :-)

I don't know Freeacre, but if I was an alien that could travel the universe, I gotta feeling that I'd have better things to do than what I described above :)

GD, I was hiking today and had this amazing epithany, and it smacked me upside of my nogan, just like you said it would. I can't believe I did not realize this before but you were right, some things take me a bit longer to figure out. This is it,
GD + O = GOD!!!!

I get it now, you are him, now I understand everything :)

Just havin a bit of fun there Freeacre :)

OK, I realized tonight that there is actually a part of our world that is just like Alice In Wonderland, and it goes by the name of Fox News. Just for kicks I turned it on today just to see what those idiots were saying about the embassy attacks. I swear its all so much like some spoof that it leaves you laughing at its insanity the whole way through. Of course I did not watch it very long. Might be some subliminal mind control stuff in there :)

As far as the growing attacks around the middle east, is anybody really supprised? I would have expected it sooner, and for it to be even more violent given what the rogue US Empire has perpetrated on those poor people for a very long time. Maybe this will be the spark that will set that place ablaze big time. You can't say the US plundering mind blowingly heinous Empire hasn't got it coming!

This makes me recall our discussions back in the Arab Spring timeframe, where SATS posted on the meddling and pre-planning of the western powers in the whole thing. But like I also indicated then, these same powers have sown an untold about of bad blood by their actions, and a spark like this embassy attack stuff could finally unleash the pent up mega angst thats been surely building in the populations over there. Like I said back then, these powers can pusue all of their nefarious plans they want, but sooner or later its going to fall apart. History ( Sorry GOD ) shows it always does.

Anonymous said...

HSW Gd is short for Gamedog, a name I have used for years, as you well know. You appear to have a tendency to form solid views on very little evidence, or rather only read one side of a subject and reject the other side. If anything contradicts your view you tend to use logical fallacies, a form of cognitive dissonance. Argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or unrelated belief of the person supporting it. Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy, an irrelevance.

Your view on aliens seems based only on the idea that "it's a big universe" somewhat betraying your limited research in this area.

I would never say "reject everything HSW says" everyone has potential to bring useful insight to the table, how much credence I give to what anyone says is proportionate to the amount of research they appear to have done.

Next time you are out in the desert, or anywhere with clear skies and little light pollution, spend a few hours lying on your back really looking at it, learn to spot satellites moving across the sky (e.g. you should see many within an hour), they appear just like stars moving across the sky, watch long enough over many sessions and you may see one stop, or turn at 45-90 degrees, you may see more than one come together and turn or disappear as I have on many occasions. I don;t spend so much time sky watching these days, but if I spent 3 or 4 hours per night for a week I would expect to see at least one such strange phenomena which is clearly not a satellite.

You are a bit like fox news or someone who swallows the official story on 9/11 in your example above until you do the research,

I think you are aware there is a lot of disinformation out there on many subjects, therefore you must look at both sides of a subject in some depth, learn to reject your first impressions (while keeping a sceptical mind). Research on any subject to the depth required takes years IMO.

I remind you again of the limitations to discussion imposed by this format, and ask that you keep this in mind before forming snap judgements on your interpretation of a comment.

I don't mind defending what I say, but I do not expect to come here and have to defend myself on a personal level, clearly this is a waste of time as I do not now have time to reply to Murph & SATS et al today.

/talking stick. Gd.

rockpicker said...


Would you care to speculate on the origin of crop circles?

rockpicker said...

Check this out.

Hotspringswizard said...

GD, of course I know your moniker stands for Game Dog. Every time you reference me it comes across clear as day, you are right, and I, if I just do some research, open my eyes, will eventually come around to your " always accurate " notions about what ever may be the subject at hand, of course thats after your absolutely correct vision slaps me up side of the head.

By the way, regarding 9-11, do some research on your own, read the articles in my blog and you will begin to understand what I really think, about that event, and on much else.

Funny to hear you suggest that I go out in the desert and lay under the stars and look up at them. I live in the desert GD, I'm 54, and you really think I have not done such countless times? Just more of your arrogance.

You wrote this " You appear to have a tendency to form solid views on very little evidence ". Regarding my POV, or my observation, they have at their core this idea. The universe appears that it could be ( as one possibility ) infinite. Whether it is or not cannot be known.

In an infinite system such as that ( a consideration which can't be discounted ), you can never know anything absolute, and therefore you could not ultimatley make any definitive statements about its workings. Interpretations can never be " solid " as you put it, your false interpretation of my views. Can you say the same about your interpretations/ideas/observations GD? Don't lie and say you can, because your written views show the real truth. Your so full of yourself you are not even worth responding to anymore, so I won't.

Hotspringswizard said...

RP, the evidence I have seen, pro and con about crop circles, suggest to me that there is a high probability that they are all made by humans. Thats the way I in essence assess things, roughly in terms of probabilities.

My view, in an infinite system ( like could be the case for our universe ), there are infinite possibilities, such that one could never assign either a 100 percent, or 0 percent probability to your observations, meaning you could never state something absolute, or on the other hand you can never fully deny the possibility of something described about that system.

Anonymous said...

HSW and all your time spent sky watching you never saw anything odd?

please link your blog and I will try to get some insight into where I got you so wrong, just for piece of mind, I won't bother you again (not on purpose anyway)

Peace out. Gd.

whitewater fraggle said...

Hey Team,

Although I would say I share HSW's views more often than not, I feel we are losing site of the prize. Regardless of whether or not there are aliens, reptiles or satan, trying to get us, the thing is the environment is still collapsing. And when it does, and more likely before, the economy and society as we know it will collapse.

So I ask, how much time do you spend watching out of shape ego-mages on youtube tell you about grand conspiracies? How much time do you spend keeping your body in shape? If you live/survive to see collapse, what will you offer your local community? Engineering, gardening, music, art? Or will you just be able to tell everyone about past conspiracies that never came true?

Hotspringswizard said...

Whitewater Fraggle, I for myself do my best to live a balanced, sensible life, to the extent I can. As far as resources, my wife and I are fortunate to have no debt beyond normal day to day expenditures, food, energy, home supplies, etc. Our home is paid for and we have many other types of savings. Of course some of these resources may not be there in the type of future we are heading into but there are some things we can't control for sure.

It is a goal of mine to strive to live a realatively simple lifestyle for a number of reasons. Doing this by definition limits that amount of things/activities you will do, to one degree or another. So my day to day activites are pretty basic.

I try to get good rest, eat healthy, take time to keep fit ( hiking and swimming ), spend rewarding time with the family, take care of home affairs, see valued friends from time to time, utilize various avenues of learning using a variety of information tools, and these things given the ultimate goal of trying to live more simply do occupy comfortably my available time.

We have made significant preperations for the prospect of more austere times to come. We have additionally a 20 acre property in a forest area in No CAl where there is abundant water and have prepared that land in many ways for the possibility of living there someday. All thats left is to build the home and I have a general contractor license as well as an electrical contractors license. Those are skills that are transferable and usable in more austere times in the future if I need to. We are like most folks not unlimited in what resources we could put into pre-preps for difficult times.

How things unfold still remains to be seen. In 1980 as a younger man I saw things occuring in the world and had similiar concerns about it all, much the same as that we have today. I purposely moved to Oregon and was planning to get some land out in the forest with a good water source to prepare for what seemed like bad times coming any time.

Well life goes in directions you do not expect and I ended up back down here in So Cal, but the thing to take away from that experience is that here we are some 30+ years later and althought things look even more dire now still, as I have said before, this crumbling of larger society may take a whole lot longer the some folkd seeing immediate collapse may think. I'm not saying that " will " be the case but my experience from 1980 does temper my feelings that imminent doom will be here tomorrow, next week, next year.

Things may very well just grind down alot more slowly over the decades before us. There is a whole lot of infrastrucure built up in place that won't just be disappearing because of finacial collapse. There are still lots of resoruces being pillaged and affluent peoples world wide could lose/do without a whole lot in lifestyle perks and still live out a life.

So some people may find that they prepared to the max, putting out a great deal of efforts, resources and money only to find 20 years down the road that they never will have needed any of it, or some large portion of it.

Each will have to decide what they can, or will do to prepare for that scenario they perceive will or might be the landscape of the future they will be facing.

whitewater fraggle said...

Im not surprised you have those skills, HSW. I was not trying to single anyone person out, I just think all of us can let our minds lead us to unproductive places.

When I follow links on this board to hour long interviews with pot bellied gurus talking about aliens, or self proclaimed weather experts, connecting Hopi legends with Elenin, excuse me planet x, I wonder how people truly spend there time once they get up from the camp fire.

I was raised by absolute sheeple who taught me how to be successful in an unsustainable fantasy world, but no tangible skills. Ive spent the past 10 years slowly teaching myself self sufficiency and find secret knowledge to be the foundation for cult mind set.

Why is it, that there are people out there like us questioning everything? How come every generation has a small percentage of people that are naturally inclined to prep?

Why is my ego so out of control that I think I am going to be alive to truly see TSHTF in the face of deep deep geologic time?

If shit does go down, I just hope I have neighbors like HSW, Randy, Murph, Free Acre and the rest of you nuts.

Have a great weekend.

Hotspringswizard said...

Yes WF having good neighbors, or a supporting network of sensible, knowledgeable people of good character committed to working together to help weather the increasingly austere times will be an indespensible component the overall equation of needs that could provide for the possibility of making it with some dignity and grace in the economically contracting and difficult time ahead for all of us.

Finding that arrangement however is easier said than done though. The neighbors around our home I think its safe to say would think I'm some conspiracy terroist, un-patriotic nut case if they were to read the kinds of information I put in articles at my blog, or told them of my own ideas about it.

Well if it ever gets to dicey here in So Cal we can go for a more remote sitiuation of living at our Northern Cal property, where there are some very solid people in place in the area already. Each situation, here or in North Cal has its own sets of advantages, and disadvantages which will have to weigh out if or when we would consider a move.

Good to hear from you WF and have a great weekend yourself :-)

rockpicker said...

Hell, whitewater, the shit's hittin' the fan as we speak. Middle east on fire, QE3 announced, gold at 1775.50, southern Cal smelling like Hades is about to blow...Where I live, the air has been so smokey for the last six weeks on account of forest fires, we've given up hopin' for rain and resigned ourselves to not seein' blue sky again 'til after first snow.

I poured seven batches of concrete yesterday, and I'm too fuckin' tired to argue about anything, but I would like to say the crop circles Lucy Pringle photographs appear over night, they're large, as a rule, the stalks of the individual plants are bent, not broken, and indicate stem growth on one side of the plant. Often , the damaged stalks are laid down in layers, with one layer lying in a clockwise orientation, and the next layer oriented counter-clockwise. Electro-magnetic radiation is usually measured within the circle, with none measured outside. Often the designs are complicated, and no sign of human in-put is apparent.

So, go figure.

Double, double,
the mudpots bubble.
Below the Salton Sea
there's trouble...

Anonymous said...

Clan Members,

We must live in one of those rare places where there are many, many like minded folks. We have many different networks set up island wide. On the 22nd of this month is our first island wide Ingenuity Tour. There will be many different types of subjects for people to see and learn. From harvesting rain and grey water to harvesting lumber, building structures, growing food, using bike transportation and on and on.
I will be co-hosting with a friend at his place, showing his permaculture set up, hugelkultur beds and I will demo biochar stoves. His main attraction will be his fully licensed brewery! He sells his micro brew at the weekly farmers market and several restaurants and one organic food store.
We have had similar events like this in the past, but not a tour so large as this.

I too have spent a lot of time, many many moons, out looking at the stars, but have never seen what you described GD. Even being out around Area 51 in Nevada. We have spent many weeks and months camped out in the deserts of Arizona, Nevada, Utah and New Mexico and have never seen what you described. One event I do remember was watching Sputink fly over around 4 October, 1957.  I remember using a very large mirror reflecting the evening sky to help locate that very small object. 


Anonymous said...

Something I ran across and try to remember in these times we live in.

"World economy is connected to the soil. The only virgin wealth a nation has, is what is grown on the soil using sunshine, air, and water. And what is pumped or mined from the ground. However, the wealth pumped or mined will be exhausted some day. But, at the hands of skilled growers, the wealth grown from fertile soil, such as fruit, nuts, grain, vegetables, flowers, trees, grass, and farm animals can be renewable forever and ever."
Malcolm Beck


Anonymous said...

Just as Whitewater has said, I do not have time to spend hours pouring over videos of things I have NO control over at all! I want to stay informed, but some things just are not worth my time!
This is the busy season for me, putting up firewood, harvesting plants, fruit and putting them by. Chipping large brush piles and adding those to my beds for the fall/winter rains to help the biomass break down to feed the soil. Also collecting, we hope, the rain that falls, to replenish the tanks.
I'm on a break now, finishing my coffee made on my little biomass cookstove, which makes biochar that is then ground up and added to my compost bins. This is adding carbon back into the soil to provide habitat for microbes and other critters. Then on top of the compost, wood chips to help with more feeding of the soil and less water use.
The more I am in contact and working in nature, the more grounded I am. In more ways than one.


Hotspringswizard said...

Bexar, great to hear about you and the good folks in your area working on very worthy things, practical and sensible ways of being. You are an inspiration to others for sure :-) Those thoughts from Malcom Beck, so true.

Regarding strange things seen in the night sky, I too Bexar have never witnessed anything that I would consider to be a sign of Alien activity or such.

RP, those crop circles I do find interesting, along with all the information concerning their features. My observation about them is just that, my assessment based on the information I have seen or researched. Can I say that there is no possibility that some sorts of aliens are, or have been interacting with this planet, making crop circles, etc, no I can't. I would put it most simply this way, I think its unlikely.

On the other hand, I think its much more probable that there are various forms of complex matter, such that we would consider them as an alien life forms of sorts, in whatever areas they happen to be, doing what they do in this universe :-)

Lastly here is a video I saw today on RT. While I'm not a fan of Rap, I did find this entertaining and it conveys a true message IMO. Something to get the blood pressure up to start out the new day :-) Go to:

And then view the vid titled " RN 15, Big Brother Is WWWatching You "

Anonymous said...

I'm surprised you guys have not seen anything odd whilst sky-watching. I did a two week astro navigation course in the RN back in 1986 which was when I first saw something odd, a "satellite" changed vector by 45 degrees, I wrote it off as a trick of light/my mind until a few days later a similar thing happened and half the course noticed it (5 or 6 navigation officers). During the next 18 months practising astro navigation on-board ship I saw many more similar incidents (more than 10) since then I estimate I've seen >30 <50. A few months ago I had guests round my campfire who didn't believe you could even see satellites (I had been recalling my observations) they couldn't see them until I pointed them out, they were so amazed they stayed up until dawn, all 4 of them saw something odd as one of their sightings changed vector and disappeared shortly after.

There are many similar, and more extraordinary things on NASA videos, someone (SATS?) posted a link to one such NASA video some weeks back, search "NASA teather UFO" NASA explained this one away as dust particles near the camera lens, this is illogical because one such particle can clearly be seen going behind the 1km long teather.

There are hundreds of credible sightings by professionals, pilots, policemen, with multiple witnesses in the UK alone, many thousands in the US. We are not alone in my arrogant opinion.

I guess you have to see something like this for yourself, otherwise it's like arguing with someone who believes the official 9/11 story, as most people do until they see the evidence, again just my arrogant POV.

Anonymous said...

...much the same as arguing with a climate alarmist/warmist who thinks they have researched the subject but never looks at the sceptic case, taking evidence only from misleadingly named websites like Skeptical Science, run John Cook, a cartoonist by trade and serial revisionist of the half dozen alarmist climate blogs he administrates, this was highlighted once again recently by the recent Lewandowsky affair. Lewandowskys junk paper, ‘NASA faked the moon landing, Therefore (Climate) Science is a Hoax: An Anatomy of the Motivated Rejection of Science’, is scheduled to be published in Psychological Science in the near future.

I can see how using sites like that as a reference builds a false sense of security regarding establishment climate science, how proponents of such science will think challengers who give the benefit of doubt regarding their motives are arrogant when they assume such proponents are under researched.
If you consider this POV arrogant that's fine, but be sure it is not simply physiological projection in order to continue with your mistaken, ill informed, globalist sponsored, Agenda 21 enabling, position.

If all else fails you can spit your dummy out and refuse to respond, comfy, like a child wrapped in it's swaddling cognitive dissonance. Gd.

Hotspringswizard said...

Bexar, here is a recent Chris Hedges article that has within it various thinking from Richard Heinberg also, who suggest as solutions doing the same similiar kinds of things that you said you were already doing with other folks in your area. I think that your efforts are a real and positive way forward, build community cooperation and localise your economy :-)

....This means starting to “know your neighbors.” It means setting up food banks and farmers’ markets. It means establishing a local currency, carpooling, creating clothing exchanges, establishing cooperative housing, growing gardens, raising chickens and buying local. It is the matrix of neighbors, family and friends, Heinberg says, that will provide “our refuge and our opportunity to build anew.”....

freeacre said...

Bexar, where is that get-together going to be on Oct. 22? I can't remember where you are in OR. Sounds really good.

I am very uncomfortable with the insulting and sarcastic tone of some of the comments lately. I don't remember having experienced this here before. I would appreciate it very much if it were taken outside.
Although, as we all know, I am partial to name-calling and vulgar gestures, I don't think I have resorted to those tactics in the comment section to refer to anyone at the council.
Perhaps our nerves are getting strained with all the tension building up on the financial, warfare, and ecological fronts. In that case, keeping cool heads becomes a survival skill.
Personally, I sorta like to think that the crop circles might be the Earth talking to us Herself. I really have no clue.
But, speculating on cosmic events and space aliens, etc. seems to have been going on since recorded time. So, I guess it is not that unusual.
Meanwhile, back on Earth, there does seem to be a shit storm going on that we do well to prepare for. This week, we have made rabbit jerky, frozen several quarts of vegetables, we are having a grass fed lamb butchered for us, and I have scheduled a man to come to the Grange and address us regarding long term food storage. Murph has been building winter housing for the rabbits. I would wish to give this a break, but it doesn't seem like now is the time. Rats.

Anonymous said...

being a member of a largely pharmacologically controlled society, lemme put it this way....

this is one of the most thought provoking pieces you've done murph and i need a time pill and a couple smart pills to... kick it up a notch or 3 in order to digest and assimilate... p

except 4 .... a comment on this...

This usually comes from those with some measure of wealth and privilege. Anything to make a person feel inadequate and guilty for not “getting mine and screw your complaints”.

until i see some evidence otherwise i'm stickin with the idea that its all energy and the state energies are in has everything to do with what and how things manifest. and also with the idea that, almost always there are many things going on within context. singling out one may be true but is only part of the truth of the overall context.

with that shortcoming in mind my knee-jerk reaction to the quoted was this... more and more the dems strike me as seriously ate up with guilt and i gotta wonder why. while, on the other hand, the repubs appear to have little guilt. it also strikes me that the dems demonstrate more care, concern, and compassion for the not-so-privileged while the repubs appear to not give a shit about such trash.

one of the more common differences between the haves and the have-nots is that the haves believe they are the source of their own fortune. that, that success had nothing to do with their connections, their privilege, and their propensity to plunder and power-over others along with the planet and her resources.

the not-so-bad people at the top, while taking shelter in the repub propaganda, know on some level that they're up there because they exploited somebody or some thing somewhere along the way and feel guilty about it and deny that guilt because, if they admitted it, they wouldn't/couldn't enjoy their wealth. or might even loose it. that if they acted on their conscience they would have to change. they might even have to become a slimy socialist and redistribute their sacred wealth. so they claim that what they own is really theirs to own. a false and mis-interpreted sense of right to ownership.

though only part of the truth, that denied guilt is in play within the context of murph's piece! how many of the dems are wearing it and reflecting it right back to the repubs? and worse, neither side even recognizes it as such.

fa... i'm w/u. such charges need to move but acting em out here or anywhere is anything but movement!

Anonymous said...

and to add to that last sentence... i have the deepest respect for the folks who gather around this council fire and consider myself priviledged to hang here with you all! its humbling!! ...p

murph said...


Glad you found the post to be thought provoking.

Most of the folks that do comments around the campfire have been doing this for a number of years now, a few have been around since the Cyclone days.

Like myself, there is evidence that there are many readers of this blog that never comment, just like I read many blog sites over a weeks time and seldom comment.

One of my observations is that this blog has a fairly unique comment section. Right off the top we have never actually moderated it. Another unique part (in my observations) is that most of the time, especially for pretty controversial issues, sitings and links and references are put up. In other words, opinions or observations are not just off the top of the thinking process and attempts are made to show some justification for positions. For this site in particular, I try and look at each one. I may not sit through an hour+ video, but I at least link it up to see what the main theme is. I do want to thank the folks that bother to provide such information.

Now on to a related subject in the next comment.

Anonymous said...

HSW, thanks for the link to Chris Hedges article. Yes, what Richard Heinberg States is what we seem to be doing here. Here is a link to one of our local papers by a friend who is helping to organize this event. He also writes a by-weekly  titled "The Road To Resilience".
You can scroll down and see an article about Bruning Man by another friend who attends every year.

FA- we live on an island, Vashon. West of Seattle and north of Tacoma, floating out in Puget Sound. I believe this helps/forces us to become  more self reliant so to speak. Most of the folks that live here commute off to work elsewhere. This will change when fuel prices and ferry tickets increase.


murph said...

GD and HSW,

The appearance to me is that the two of you are starting to not deal with information but rather are digging into personalities. And, I have to admit that I am somewhat confused as to why.

Neither of you have bothered to site much of where your information is coming from and comment on how reliable it is.

Now I hold a multitude of positions on a variety of subjects and if someone challenged me on my sources, in many cases I would have difficulty in providing exact sources. In other cases I have many references I could put up. I notice that I have not once been challenged on my cynicism and and statements concerning the formation of our constitution and related documents and the nature of the folks that were involved.

In some cases, I have the complete article as digital storage or the book on hand but no recorded links to it on the internet. Although, if someone were curious enough, it could be searched out. I have an external HD that I store this stuff on and it amounts to about 5 GB of of text. Unfortunately, I did not begin this with a real good cataloging system and often have to do a search through this stuff to find specific references that I want to review.

I am going to comment again on this climate change and UFO debate. For the climate debate, it matters not much to me whether it is anthropomorphic or sun cycles or celestial positioning or not. Humans will not or can not change it. We can rattle on concerning who says what about it, site data page after data page and it makes no difference. It sure appears to me that the only thing we can do as individuals is prepare for what we think is going to happen, and that could be all bull shit too. The bottom line is that it is an individuals decision what to project into the future and what to reject in projections. To the best of my knowledge, none of us commenting on this site are insiders nor do we have reliable relationships with insider information. We can talk all day about whistle blowers, different scientists statements and their honesty, objectiveness and how reliable their data is. In the end, we pick and choose what we accept as the probable truth of the situation and then decide as individuals what we want to do about it.

murph said...

I cannot tell you how many times I have been told that; "I know some oil workers and decision makers in that field that tell me that we have so much available oil that it makes Saudi Arabia look miniscule in comparison, that we have 500 years of uninterrupted driving and industrial expansion if only the government would get out of the way and put down all those stinking environmentalists that are in the way of progress. After all, "If you aren't growing you are dieing". Now the folks that lay this kind of rap on me are adamant in their position and and view my stance on the issue as naive, alarmist and uninformed. It makes no difference to them what data, information and authoritative sources I site to them. It makes no difference to them when I ask what their sources for these positions are, and when (seldom) given and I question its reliability base, I am just a nut case with an extreme position and of no consequence, and often they are flat out insulted for my asking. After all, all thinking smart folks know better. I am seeing a lot of similarities to this and the climate debate.

Freeacre and I have a shelf full of documentary DVDs on recorded history and commentaries of ancient writings and stone inscriptions. Strange shit has been observed in the sky for at least 5000 years according to these documentaries. Interpretations of these writings are numerous and have no consensus. On a personal level, until I actually physically meet something that is not human and not from our planet I will remain skeptical but interested. A million folks attesting to anything may add documentation and credence but proves nothing. In the 1960's when I worked at a radio station I was told that 10 million folks saying that Elvis was the greatest entertainer ever could not be wrong. Well.......

murph said...

Oh my, This comment has become another posting. Oh well...

Folks, Freeacre and I have no desire for this site to become a war over individual perceptions and thinking. At the least, after presenting what evidence we have at our disposal, someone just flat out does not agree, can we not take the stance of "Agree to disagree"?

For Freeacre and I, the important question in our perceptions is what are you doing to help the situation. Are you engaged in your community and attempting to put out information that will assist folks in living better and with more security? Are you putting out information that your perceptions indicate is useful?

We have presented a whole bunch of information about the U.N. agenda 21 in all it's manifestations to our community and it has surprised us at the response Quite a few folks are grabbing on to this and doing a monumental amount of research into it and its ramifications to our individual lives and how it is affecting all governmental bodies right down to the local level.

Go on, try it out. See what develops when you do this sort of information disbursement. It has been asserted that it only takes 4% of a population to make some major changes. Can we be influential? Hell yes!!

whitewater fraggle said...


I knew someone on here was from around Vashon. I think through this board you introduced me to Victory Gasifiers and wood gasification in general (Wow, that became my obsession last summer).

Anyway, I am only a few miles west of you near Olalla and Crescent Valley.

@ All
It'd be wild to have a Trout Clan Festival someday. "Bring a food dish and a skill to teach."

Anonymous said...

Whitewater, that would be me. I'll be firing up my biochar stoves at site #15 on the map listed below. 

Well put Murph! You and I see things about the same way. Why is it that the folks that lay their "crap" on us, do so and are not willing to listen to our side? In my case, family members do this to me, but when I talk about my stuff, they go deaf.

I find it interesting that most of these folks seem to me to be angry with just about everything. Most of them do not know each other and in some cases live thousands of miles apart, however doing further research and questioning, they ALL seem to listen to the same radio talk shows and watch the same tee-vee news programs.

Enough of this for now. We just came in from harvesting 5 pounds of blackberries and two pounds of blueberries. For the blues, this puts us at 72 pounds for the season! For my lunch I'm have a blackberry, blueberries, frozen peaches, frozen plums, kale and ground up flax seed with bananas blended into a smoothie. Wow! What flavors!


rockpicker said...

God, almighty, the whole world's insane!

Hotspringswizard said...

Murph, In the few years or so that I have commented here, it has been in the form of either just my commentary on some subject, links to information/articles ( which I have done consistently ) of which I deemed were worth considering, at times along with my thoughts about that specific information.

My purpose in doing this activity is to present and discuss information and ideas about our quickly changing world situation, see what information and ideas others have about the same, and hopefully this exchange of ideas will provide us greater understanding of what is occurring, or may in the future occur, so that we might better understand what we might reasonably do about it.

I come here to share what I can, when I can. I am not here to present lengthy research projects full of multitudes of supporting links. I explore the depths of others info and premises to the extent I have an interest to do so. If someone tells me they are convinced that the Moon is made of Green Cheese, and they have provided in depth researched documentaion along with myriad links to other supporting evidence about this notion of theirs, I would not waste my time checking out all of their extensive info, since I would consider based on all my other experience, that their observation holds no merit. No person has the time to put their attention in every myriad direction that others might try and compell them to.

It is my choice whether I wish to respond to any particular contributor here. I have chosen not to respond to GD anymore because I consider his tone and manner disrespectful and arrogant. Now whether or not his ideas are actually legitimate, or not, is a seperate issue from this choice I speak of above. Its not a case of me being unable to provide further evidence for my observations or POV, but rather, I just will not carry on a dialog with certain people where I have come to the opinion that it would be a complete waste of my time.

On any subject, I'm not interested in going on and on about it, round and round like a merry go round. My interest is to present information or ideas, answer any respectful questions asked of me about the material I have offered up, and doing this to the extent I have time, or the interest, to continue the discussion on that particular topic. GD is the only one in my time here that I have ever chosen not to respond to. I have lived long enough to know further communitcation with him will go nowhere, it will be fruitless, and I will waste no more of my time on him. My choice to make.

Anonymous said...


Come on boys and girls, settle down now. That means everyone :-) I will pick one quote at random and I am not choosing sides by doing this. “just for piece of mind, I won't bother you again (not on purpose anyway)”. - If you say it you have got to do it, if you don't want to do it don't say it. I hope we can draw a line under this now and carry on.

Quickly changing the subject, there was an item on the MSN last night that China is on the brink of a major economic slowdown. They showed a factory that had been busy all year making, of all things, Father Christmas suits for the west. They made other things as well such as jester hats etc. Last year at this time they had 1300 employees, now they are down to 100. They showed great empty workshops with banks of sewing machines. Perhaps people have stopped believing in the magic.

Here is an up to date picture of the Belgian situation.

Although it is in Dutch it is very easy to understand. Faillissmenten means all business failures whether it is by bankruptcy, liquidation or receivership. Rechtbankten van koophandelen is a special court that deals with corporate law with an emphasis on wholesale and retail, (more or less).
Total job losses this year up to the end of August are 13,508. This is 27% up on the same period last year. All in all there are not many positive waves.

Anonymous said...


The last comment was posted earlier today and wandered around in the ether for a couple of hours before it landed. These things happen.

I have decided to try out the salt preserving thing and yesterday I bought 3 kg chicken legs, 2 kg chicken wings and 2 kg beef ribs (all halal as it happens). I have no special requirement for halal it is just what that particular butcher was. I got special preserving salt too from a different butcher. It was a case of, we don't usually sell this stuff but if you give the boys a couple of beers I am sure we can find you a couple of kilos. I don't have problems with deals like this now and again especially if I can't get the stuff any other way. You can use ordinary salt but preserving salt has an antioxidant in which stops the meat going bad before the salt gets the water out. I have also bought two plastic containers with one lid. And drilled holes in the bottom of one of them for blood to drain. The idea is to put the one with holes inside the other one, put the salted meat in, top the lid on and leave it in the bottom of the fridge for a couple of weeks. I will let you know how I get on with this. If it works maybe I can bring this skill to the get together and I will make a pot of stoovlees, a kind of Belgian stew. Randy, can we rely on you for the beer?

We have some Muslims making a nuisance of themselves over here. They call themselves Sharia for Belgium. The main non European groups we have here are Moroccans and Turks both of which are Sunnis. The only countries to have Shia Muslims are Iran and Lebanon so far as I am aware and we don't have enough of them over here that I know of, yet there were hundreds protesting in the streets over the weekend. Over what, I am not quite sure. Oh yes, there was the film of course. I have got a feeling this is going to turn into another Salman Rushdie. It just brought home to me how easy this descent for the Arab Spring is to organise. Pity we couldn't get enough occupiers out making such a noise. Perhaps we are too democratic – ha, ha.

Anonymous said...

as gommer woulda put it to the sarge... well, gollLLLllll-Lieee! i looked up olalla and SW bank rd/vason hwy and its maybe what? 3 miles as the crow flies at most? so we got readers that span the globe and here's 2 of them 3 miles apart that have never met aside from this cyber campfire cafe??

such smacks of that silly synchronicity stuff and everybody knows you can't prove that nonsense! ...p

rockpicker said...

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

--Sherlock Holmes


The truth? Not enough mass slammed the earth
in Manhattan. Think back. You knew
they were coming down from the first frown of smoke.
Once, little, you ran through tall corn laughing
'til a bad ear burst black in your face
and you ran back fast against the laughing,
back to the safe white house beneath the maples,
behind the pickets, where bombs exploding like corn
in thin incandescence, from the pages of LIFE magazine,
were explained away as necessary to end a war.

Remember? It was hot the day you were told
to watch the mare. She was grazing the timothy
with her colt. Your plan seemed good.
You could see half the Muck in distant haze,
rehearse a speech for a girl you feared to kiss.
What could go amiss from your Mother's roof?
You saw them start and started for the tree.
They were running hard down through the long grass
when you hit the ground. When you found
the pavement, the mare's front was in the air.
The colt, the gravel truck, all the parts and players, there.

You're stammering 'no' on that same hot road today
where the square nose of calamity, gun metal gray,
hammers innocence with its unforgiving steel.
Ruined earth rolls away under the shovels
of ruined men. Rivers trickle. Sky spreads
its promise behind spreading bars. All these signs,
you knew them, frightened, in that running corn.
Years later, and that too-small heap still smoulders
from your own collapse. Must we tint the ugly
or absurd to live, to sleep a bit or laugh?

Anonymous said...

Today, two F-15's or F-14's are flying over my house and they were doing it yesterday too. Also on Friday the Yakima Firing Range was full of activity, all sorts of big guns being fired as well as smaller ones. For the past several weeks, BlackHawks from JB Lewis/McCord, have been flying over at night and other times. Don't know what to make of all this, but it just seems to me that this is a lot of military activity taking place which we have not experienced in some time.

P- yes, it is something that Whitewater and I live so close. Actually he is a ferry boat ride and a drive south which comes to about 12 miles. I live just up the street from #1 on the map.

Whitewater- why don't you come over next Saturday and have a look see? It's all free.


Hotspringswizard said...

Regarding drones, I have heard that there are some of them operating out of the old George Airforce Base area just west of here which I think is referred to SLVC now and is used for various purposes. Anyway I've also read that the drones immenate a high whining sound when they fly.

I have heard that sound on various occasions in the last couple of years. At first I did not know what they were, thinking they might be some sort of experimental aircraft flying by from the nearby airport but I now suspect they are drones.

Like today I heard one, and as usual I can never spot them, and can just hear them passing by. Just about a couple of minutes after the drone ( suspected ) flew past, a regular jet liner went over with its normal sound and I can always spot them rather easily. These drones seem like they are going back and forth between SLVC and a large air base out north of 29 Palms. At least we will know what they sound like when they are diving down to take us out with their Hellfire Missiles :-)

Just as a side note, I had a real close call with a South Western Speckled Rattlesnake the other day. We have big trees in the backyard and there are dribblers under them for water, and the weeds grow up pretty much because of the water. Well I was clearing the weeds away from a dribbler when I suddenly saw the rattlesnake coiled up just a few inches in front of my hand. It could have easily bit me if it wanted to. It never rattled and didn't move either.

So I left it alone, thanking my lucky stars and went to turn on the water for the trees. I came back to the tree where the snake was and the water was filling up in the moat around the snake. Eventually the water got high enough that the coiled snake was just there in the same position, under water!

Well then I thought that maybe this snake was dead or something. Just about then my wife and daughters got home so I went over to see them for a bit, then I told them about the snake and took them over to look at it. Well it was not there were I saw it anymore so clearly it was alive. We looked around carefully under a rather large Jimson Weed bush next to the moat and found the snake about two feet away from where it was, all coiled up again. That was right before my going to Burning Man and a rattlesnake bite surely have ended that trip.

Maybe its the same South Western Speckled Rattlesnake that gave the thumbs up approval of my Turtle Mountain stone and head arrangment so we are friends :-)

Hotspringswizard said...

Well Freeacre I was wrong after all, the Aliens really are taking over!

Report to Galactic Command: the eradication of humans is in progress

....Assuming that things continue to move according to plans, planet Earth will soon be free of humans and of most large vertebrates that could be a nuisance for colonization....

As Ramdu would say, We Are So Doomed!

Anonymous said...

SATS: that quote was subject to a reasonable condition, the condition was not met, so trying to understand were it all went wrong I reread the replies to the last few threads, it seemed clear who took it to a personal level, I don't respond well to bullying so I considered a riposte justified.

Murph: I thought I had provided many references, these take a lot of time for me as I sold off my library in 04 and stopped collecting electronic references about 4 computers ago, I did actually intend to go off-line after FTW folded but I'm still here. I still buy a lot of books but tend to pass them on, my research is a personal affair I have nothing to prove to anyone but if someone is interested I give them a book if I have one I've read. If you (or anyone else) would like a reference for anything please ask.

There is a lot of junk out there regarding UFOs, besides the NASA stuff let out by accident (and there's a lot of it) the most compelling evidence is shot on night vision and digital cameras, lots of it about these-days but the good stuff is soon disappeared or has the contrast altered (unless you look at that stuff often you wouldn't notice), a few yrs ago I would have recommended Ed Grimslys videos but I checked them recently to find the contrast has been altered and the best ones are no longer available, I can link to a discussion about this with some NV video included but as we've agreed you would need to see this stuff yourself in real time there's not much point me looking it up. If you (or anyone else) ever get chance to look at the night sky with 3rd gen NV do it, you might just get a whole different perspective. Gd.

rockpicker said...

On every level, from every direction, the sheep of this world are being attacked by the wolves.

No wonder some of us talk of aliens. The behavior of those in power, whether corporate bosses or politicians, is anti-humanist.

People who care about their fellow human beings don't poison the air and the water with everything from silver iodide to depleted uranium.

They don't cause drought in order to facilitate social engineering experiments. They don't purposely implode economies to force the creation of their brave new prison planet.

These creatures, these sociopaths we elect to follow, plan to kill most of us off. They've chiseled their intentions into stone, in eight languages, for all the world to read.


You don't think they took down the towers?

You don't believe they would spray your blue sky white with whatever shit suited them on any given day?

Have any bankers gone to jail?

Will the word 'privacy' fade from our lexicon?

Like Carlin said,"They've got you by the balls!"

Now, they're taking us to world war again, only this time they intend to use weapons of mass destruction in a blood sacrifice that will dwarf all previous offerings.

This time, there will be no stops. Directed energy, chemical,thermonuclear, biologic, you name it. They have it, and they will use it.

It's almost as if they can't help themselves.

Murph's right. They're not stupid.

They're insane.

Anonymous said...

It just brought home to me how easy this descent for the Arab Spring is to organise.

sats... lifted the following from alex higgins blog piece titled: Massive Censorship As Media Pushes False Narrative On Mid East Riots

"Those who followed the situation in Libya know that the US and its NATO allies backed Islamic Jihadists to topple Gadaffi. These extremists were then basically given power over Libya after the government fell and they have been waging genocidal cleansing in the name of Saudi Arabia’s fundamentalist interpretation of Islam ever since.

"This is the same situation that is happening in Syria right now were the west is covertly backing Saudi Arabia’s Salafi Jihadists to overthrow Assad. The Saudi Government indoctrinates extremists with their fundamentalist version of islam and exports this poisonous ideology to neighboring countries. The US and its allies use this army of fundamentalists , which includes Al Qaeda and other Islamic Jihadists, as a covert foreign legion to push their imperialistic agenda overseas."

the predpominant saudi fundamentalist version of islam is wahhabism. according to wiki...

"The terms Wahhabi and Salafi and ahl al-hadith (people of hadith) are often used interchangeably, but Wahhabism has also been called "a particular orientation within Salafism",[3] an orientation considered ultra-conservative and apolitical."

i gotta wonder how that squares with this from wiki on salafi jihadists...

"Salafist jihadists distinguished themselves from salafis they called "sheikist", so named because they had (according to the jihadists) forsaken adoration of God for adoration of "the oil sheiks of the Arabian peninsula, with the Al Saud family at their head"

... p

Anonymous said...

These creatures, these sociopaths we elect to follow, plan to kill most of us off.

rp... agreed. an agenda to kill life is at the core, is in play, and is coming to a head. but methinks this anti-life core is miniscule relative to the mass that has been co-oped and/or hijacked into it. often on a subconscious level. which is not to say they (and we) aren't responsible in the end for whatever role is played in it.

we want to find some way to explain what appears to be this whole class that don't give a shit so we call them sociopaths or even psychopaths. truly, such exists and the pattern does fit sociopathy and in some cases psychopathy. and, no doubt about it, the behaviors and points of view do mirror the patterns and traits. but its far more likely the majority are anything but at their core. thats both good news and bad. the bad is being reflected to us. the good news is it can change. not so easy but possible. almost impossible with the bona fide psychopath.

the profile of sociopathy mirrors the behavior of the narcissist in many ways. read about these in the context of observing one's self and one's fellow man and, being brutally honest, its becomes clear that almost everyone may display at least some of the patterns. onset of narcissism is in infancy, childhood and early adolescence and commonly attributed to childhood abuse and trauma inflicted by parents, authority figures, or even peers. justification for such can be found in our pedigogies. alice miller's point exactly.

that's part of the truth. another part of it has to do with what we bring with us... p

Anonymous said...

p, you got it on the nose my brother
the answer my friend is blowing in the wind......

lock and load was a message passed on to this one today , but i explained to unidentified
that the situation was worse then could be possible imagined but the young one said that the info is not new and that they were ready and waiting ,,,,,,

condor ......

Anonymous said...

Getting back to the post.... great, by the way, Murph.

Reading the local news on a daily basis, I often wonder if these people, local PTB controlling things around here, are stupid or just blinded by their lust for power and money.

Case in point is the terrible air quality in this area. It's a large bowl that becomes hazardous to your health, especially in winter months (I wear a surgical mask on my half-mile walk to work in those months), but for some reason, the local powers are allowing Kennecott to increase their mining operation in the valley some 32%. Kennecott says the mining increase won't have any impact on the air quality and -and, the pollution control board agreed with them! Even the sheeple here had a WTF? moment. You wonder how much these board members got paid under the table or got a new car or free tuition, but I wondered... don't these people live here? I mean, 80% of Utahns live in this narrow streach along the Wasatch Front, from Provo to Ogden and the air quality is terrible, and so it seems like money and power mean more to these people than clean air or water. Which is weird becuase those who control this place are Mormon, which means they have 7 children, so I wonder... don't these people give a damn about their families?

Then I remembered the years I spend in the ME working with military burn-outs, malcontents and dangerous mo-fo's and the number one thing on their minds was money. We lived in sub-human conditions, subjected to extreme heat, lousy housing, pre-chewed food and any day at work you could "buy it" -but none of these things didn't matter to these guys. What mattered was that they were making money. More money than they could in the US.

So I'm wondering.... where did this warped "I'm geting mine, and fuck eveyone else" attitude come from? The media? The mob?

Wherever it came from, it seems like it's getting worse and spreading to more and more places and people.

Man, we're doomed.


Anonymous said...


The Alexander Higgins site is down but no matter, Jim Stone's site is still up and running.

This in all probability was the original source of the story. There was NO United States official building, either embassy or consulate in Benghazi and no one was killed. Moreover, it has now been established there was no film either. According to JS these are false flag attempts against Muslims because Israel is about to do Iran. If this is so then that Shia protest in Belgium makes a lot of sense. If this was the intent, let us hope that the exposé makes them see sense and back off. If not JS read it wrong but it will be a first for him.

Anonymous said...

rockpicker, jesus dude i just kicked back for a nap and now the visions i envisioned are like fleas on a dead whale , they do have fleas don't they?
a young friend of mine dropped by this afternoon for a visit, he is 26 and married living in alaska building ships of some sort, was worried about him seven of eight years ago when i last saw him but he did not seem the worse for wear for the dialogs we had in those days when i told him that society was a puke bag and that if he did not be alert he might get caught in it,... much to my surprise and wonderment he seems to have looked and saw what i was talking about ,,,, by the gods it does work on some of the young'uns .. thank you spirit......
and good luck to you Bergan ,my young friend...

rockpicker said...

MF; Didn't mean to scare ya. Didn't think I could...

UFO's, anyone?

rockpicker said...

Let me stir the coals...

Anonymous said...

So I'm wondering.... where did this warped "I'm geting mine, and fuck eveyone else" attitude come from?

ramdu.... its called education.

condor... the nose, as it grows, gets easier and easier to hit. the condor feel what the eagle can only see. and often, can't see. thats why we need each other!

eagle out

freeacre said...

Well, just for fun, take a look at this UFO video footage. It's about the best I have seen. But the question remains - is this from outer space, or is it a product of some terrestrial secret black ops program? I sure don't know. I am getting sick of not knowing the truth of anything, it seems.!

Anonymous said...

Here is a video that needs to be watched before it's taken off on the 22nd of September.
If you want to know why so many people in the U.S. are sick, this may help to  explain.
Please watch!


murph said...


I have been talking about the dangers of GMO and BT stuff for a few years now. We are finally seeing more research on this coming to the public's attention.

I caught a video of a agricultural researcher who used to work for DOW. He said the the big problem we have had is completely unavailable research papers from the chemical companies and the FDA simply took their word that the stuff was safe.

I have to assume that the SOB's want to kill us off or make us perpetually sick to the benefit of the drug companies.

We are so doomed

Anonymous said...

Murph- Per your article about taxing the wealthy. Just today in the Seattle Times online paper, they listed eight billionaires who live in the Seattle area. Of course the top gun was mr. Gates. Number two is Jeff Bezos, amazon founder. The poor one is Starbucks CEO. All of theses folks together are worth $116,900,000,000.00! Another way of putting it is, 117,017 millionaires!

The real winner of all recent elections has been corporate America. They have no family, nor community, and, increasingly no nationality!
I say TAX them as was in the 1950's as you pointed out.

I don't know if we are doomed, but w sure have been in a rough storm these last 30 years or so.

This GMO crap began with G.H.W. Bush then Clinton, then bush jr., and now Obama. When will it end?

I will not give up!!!


Hotspringswizard said...

After all of that GMO stuff from Bexar, I lost my appetitie :-(

RP, as per your September 17, 2012 5:15 PM post, UFO's anyone, just google military code word " Battleship " and you will find a recent video, secretly desgised as a fiction film which shows what is occuring with those aliens out there in the Pacific. This is going on right under our noses, hard to believe but true!

OK, OK, back to reality :-) As far as my list of things to be concerned about, aliens and the threat they might pose is not on it. Now if they do land near here in the water, say Big Bear Lake, and start firing off those round meat grinder space alien weapons in our direction, like the ones seen in Battleship, now thats something to worry about :-) Oh by the way, if you do watch Battleship, think of it as a comedy and it will make more sense :-)

On the other hand, there are dangerous beings here on the planet right now, doing all sorts of nasty stuff, but don't get to excited, because they are human, well, sort of :-)

Now some folks might call these ill minded monsters insane because of what they do, but I would offer up that they are no more insane in most cases than a White Shark is.

Some people might think that the architectue of the mind, when it functions normally, as in its not damaged in some way, is meant to pump out good, responsible, compassionate, non-aggressive, etc, etc, types of people.

However, I would suggest to you thats not the case because the normal hardware of the human mind will also produce the opposite, and everything else in between. The myriad inputs of life, funneled into the human minds architecture will produce all the mesmerizing differances we see in humans, with their consequent drastically variable behaviors.

Simply put, you could have a so called bad person, and a good person, and both of their brains are functioning normally. Its human interpretations that assign all the various labels of " brain dis-function " to those that deviate from the various societal norms, which has ( for the most part ) nothing to do with the underlying biology and correct workings of the brain architecture.

And why does the human brain produce so many behavior types in humans? Its like a plant that produces prodigious amounts of seeds so it will have a better chance at survival. So in similiar fashion, the human mind produces all manner of what I think of as species of humans, because all of those particular humans will have variable qualites, and among those will by types that survive better than others, or are more adaptable to changing conditions.


Hotspringswizard said...

Now we talk alot here about the types of human species that are definitely a danger to us because of what they do, just like a White Shark would be dangerous if you were swimming in its area, especially if it was hungry, like some War Monger or Corrupt Banker gets with their lust for killing, or need for greed respectively.

So the point of the above is, I suggest its erroneous to think of the many types of people we discuss with disgust here as being crazy, or insane. But also that is not to say that their actions are any less dangerous on so many levels to us folks of a differant species more inclined towards the better nature that human mental architecture can produce.

The problem is, those we might classify as the White Shark types are generally alot more ruthless, don't care about mamby pamby rules made up by society, and they will do literally anything to get a leg up on the next guy, and that, is why they more often than not end up in the higher postions of society, politician, bankers, corporation heads, military top brass, etc.

But just as successful as they are in their ruthless endeavors, they are also very accomplished at self destruction, hence the cycle of empires through the ages.

Advantage is gained by them for a while, but in the end it always blows up in their face, because ruthlessness and wanton greed has an achilees heel, it knows no restraint, and this will always lay the seeds of their own destruction, in time.

Meanwhile, us people of better human nature, the good side of the spectrum of mannerisms, have to do what we can to meet the many threats the White Sharks have in mind for us. And right now, it appears that we are nearing the collapse part of the cyclic process, with all of the mayhem that will ensue from its fallout. The Sharks are circling, what to do!

Now is when we really need a whole bunch of Lightworkers sent by Lord Anton from the planet Nebedon, like what my one friend sends me info about in e-mails, to come down here and get busy, doing some Shark Hunting :-)

Anonymous said...

oh, so we have to call someone else to do our shark hunting for us? and what will be the price for THAT??

as to self-destruction... i get yer point evidenced by cultual collapse. but i don't think they have a lock on it. so lets talk about it. i'm purddy damn sure i can cuz i consider meself a pro at it! and i'm anything but fitting the profile you describe. not an agenda i'm proud of but it is what it is and at 5:50 this afternoon i will have logged 68 full years of experience at it and seeing the undeniable results. and its still kickin! lurking there in the darkness. like a great white shark! alive and well with one objective... to take me down!! insatiable bastard. and he don't live in me head... p

btw... from where i'm seeing it, yer describing the mind from where the heart would be. and yeah, can't argue that the shark has one. but then, if you cut it out of him what you get ain't what i'm talkin bout.

and then, theres another whole layer of the cake in the mix. like the depths from which the great white rises. wonder what that might be? let me put it another way... the brain is akin to a computer on chemicals. what is it that pushes its buttons to produce all those various behavior types?

yeah, i know, u answered it. sort of....

The myriad inputs of life, funneled into the human minds architecture will produce all the mesmerizing differances we see in humans, with their consequent drastically variable behaviors.

so assuming the architecture is playing with a full deck and we're all playing with the same deck (which i doubt when it comes to humans and sharks. not that they aren't similar in physiobio function) what trumps it into deciding or reacting this way or that?

and yeah, i know, there is a dif between the brain and the mind. but the mind ain't actin alone!

Anonymous said...

Bloody Hell! Wait, change that into Mormon speak -Bloody HECK! Chemtrails all over Mormon HQ today! I've never seen so many here in one morning. Wonder WTF is go'in on. The scuttlebutt around the blogsphere says Israel is definitley going to attack Iran -maybe next week.



murph said...


Your long comment on how the brain works may or may not be precisely true. There has been a lot of delving into this by the science community and Personally I haven't seen much really good conclusions about the data. One conclusion is that free-will is non existent. Which may or may not be true. I'd prefer to think it is not true.

If we are oriented to "think/believe" that humans have free-will, then that would also mean that decisions can be made as to physical actions by the individual.

One brain can lust for power and money but make the decision not to engage in the destructive actions to acquire it. They could decide to do it in such a manner that they "do no harm". We could argue that acquiring power and money has a built in destruction to it, as you have posited.

Let us assume for a moment that acquiring money and power can be done without also doing harm. I first of all also assume that it would require a whole lot more time, energy and commitment than by doing harm, it's the easy way. After acquiring that money and power, does that change how the brain works? Will it form a whole new value system that says doing harm is ok as long as I get what I want?

I have serious doubts that humans are born with genes that promote this lust for power and money, ie. some have these genes and other do not. I rather suspect it is taught early on. Some folks reject this value system later in life. I know a very few that did.

It does appear to me that decisions around this issue can be made and consequent behavior changes. Those that do reject the "do no harm" in their quests in life we label as psychopaths or sociopaths.

I see no simplistic answers or solutions.

freeacre said...

Hey, Randy, they must have moved our chemtrails over to you. We haven't had any lately. But, that's maybe because our skies are full of smoke from forest fires anyway.

Last night we were heading toward the Grange, and it looked like it did when Mt. St. Hellens went off. I thought maybe south Sisters blew up. It's been seismically volatile lately. But, it was just fires. Jeez.

murph said...


We have had very few chem trails over our area this summer, at least compared to the last two summers that were nearly every day. Garden did better too, coincidence?

It sure does appear that the situation in the middle east is coming to a head doesn't it? What a cluster fuck

Anonymous said...


Murph, in your “No simplistic answers” comment, I agree with your general thrust and that people can and do reject violence and harm doing. I cannot see myself or either of you two guys deliberately doing it. Although defending rather than attacking is a different story. If this indeed the case, do you have an explanation for what happened in the Stanford Prison Experiment? I know that I drag this old chestnut out of the cupboard and throw it on the table every now and again but only when it seems appropriate.

Anonymous said...

"After acquiring that money and power, does that change how the brain works?" Hmmm... maybe it does. Maybe they start thinking that since they got this far, maybe they can get farther as in getting more 'stuff' and getting that 'stuff' in other ways. Something like a gambler or an athelete taking steroids. You wrote earlier that "...most of these decision makers if we met them in a social setting and unaware of their positions as decision makers would appear be friendly and interesting folks that are helpful members of their community and solid family people." I don't know.
Look at, say, Tiger Woods. The guy has everything, but, he wants more. And more of everything it seems. But I'll bet if you'd sit down at a pub and had a few beers with him, you'd come to the conclusion that he's a real dick. Same goes with the person who was your friend, working in the same place, you did things together, etc., BUT, once he got the raise and the promotion over you and others, he became
-a real dick. Ok, maybe I'm getting into the "absolute power.." thingy.

I often wonder... if I were to ever make a butt-load of money via carreer or by a winning lottery ticket, would I start treating people like doggus poopus (Latin for "dogshit"), screwing people over for more money -or generally behaving like a real dick?

Hmmmm... I guess we'll never know, although I think it would be a great experiment -for me, that is.


Anonymous said...

This just happened in LD$land:

-and this picture will be haunting me while I'm riding my Madsen bike to the Farmers' Market this weekend. Jeebus.


Hotspringswizard said...

I've read your various observations and some of your questions concerning my previous two post on the subject of the human brain. I'll respond a bit now with what time I have currently.

Just to mention briefly, from all of the differant types of evidence I have seen, it appears to me to be pointing in the direction of the possible reality that we do not have free will. Simply put, I think that its more likely the case.

But on the other hand I don't see how whether we do have free will or not could ever been answered definitively, because we may live in an infinite cosmos, and possibilities of all sort could be infinite too.

So generally in my discussion I proceed with my argumentation derived from an unerlying base that we do have some measure of freewill, since the various arguments we make, disagreements and such, would make no sense coming from a " no free will " base.

Now the above does present a quandry for the mind, since there exist, at least based on my observations the possibility of either case being true, but neither one can be absolutely determined.

So the two previous post I did for clarification argue the features of the brain more from the base idea that humans don't have free will, in which case everything is strictly cause and effect.

The vast majority of humans thinking we have free will to one degree or another to my mind is by far, the most pervacive commonly held belief system of all. But then one might consider that at one time the vast majority of humans thought the earth was flat, so numbers of believers does not necesarily equate with truth :-)

Clearly these are very complicated subjects and I'm, as always, just sharing some of my observations about the seemingly infinite web of goings on that we experience. I'll have some more to add later.

murph said...


I wasn't trying to start some kind of argument nor attempting to negate your assertions. Just putting up some of my own thoughts on the subject.

I do prefer to think that we do have free will, the ability to decide on a course of action of our own choosing. That means that a person is responsible for their decisions. We live in a society that seems to refute that to a large degree.

A conundrum?

Anonymous said...

HSW - Here is a program about drones that you might be interested in. I just heard the last 20 minutes of it, and it really pisses me off at what this country is doing! Who do those war mongers think they are anyway, gods? My wife told me about the part she heard and it is just down right criminal at what this so called leadership in the white house is doing. What another big let down. I have lost ALL respect for that man and his advisors.


rockpicker said...

I think the degree to which one connects with spirit has a lot to do with how one conducts his or her life on earth.

We all have free will to choose to believe in life after death, or to reject the notion, and assume that this is all there is.

Most religions embrace some concept of afterlife. Whether the faithful are offered Paradise or reincarnation on the earthly plane, continuity of spirit seems to be a hopeful tenet of belief.

Not to suggest that one must ascribe to standard religious principles in order to live a life in service to others.

But consider the opposite. If you truly believe there is nothing to expect after this existence, that there is no soul and no continuity, then what makes more sense than to indulge oneself in the pleasures of the material world? Ethics is reduced to a series of choices made on the basis of pragmatic analysis of possible actions, and their perceived probable outcomes, as relates to the individual. Relenting to peer pressure or societal norms becomes more of a practical matter than a heart-felt moral position.

As I observe the behaviors of most of the West's leaders, it appears to me that most, if not all, of the key players exhibit the arrogance of psychopaths and pathological liars. I cannot say whether they are satanists, (though many of them do seem fond of those odd hand signals,). I can say, though, they seem to be devilishly determined to make life more difficult for the rest of us.

Burma Shave.

Anonymous said...

Well damn, looks like the link I gave is only a sample. If anyone can find the program another way, please post it. The program is: Medea Benjamin, Drone Warfare. It's on Alternative Radio.


cedar said...

Must be something in the wind tonite folks cause we are all on here. Murph & FA, HSW, Randy. My experience with the "power people"?? you all were speaking about, they have tended to be pussy cats as long as they were having their way, BUT, cross them or place them into a strange environment and the White Shark comes out. In a earlier life I got to cater to some of those $ & power folks on river & fishing trips and it seemed the shark could only be hidden for a day or two before his or her real self came out. Just my experience an observations. Murph, things here on the coast are doing good this year, good garden and livestock an grandkids all healthy. best to all, s & c

Hotspringswizard said...

Well I'm runnin late so I'll try and cover a few things.

Murph regarding this you just posted " I wasn't trying to start some kind of argument nor attempting to negate your assertions ", really, I did not think that you were, at all :-)

The idea of whether, or not, we have free will for me remains, and I think will always remain, again for me, an open questions.

Free will is not something you can put on a table for all to see and study, like some material object, and you can't define where it is in a spacial sense, because it is an idea that people think about themselves, the idea that they can choose their future course, that multiple paths are availabe rather than things just being predetermined.

Imagine what would happen if the brains of all the people in the world were suddenly removed. All of their bodies would plumment to the ground and there would be no more actions from which to define free will with, because free will is defined by citing human actions.

Where would their free will be then? With the bodies ceasing to function, who would tell the tale of it all anyway, you cannot speak and you cannot think, and all this because you removed a small grey blob of jelly. The architecture of the grey flesh was all along where the manifestations of action came from, and those actions were never free from its workings.

I notice Murph you said that you " prefer " to think we have free will. So if I understand you correctly, its an open question for you too. There is much more than I have explained about just why I think its more likely that we don't have free will, but for the sake of the many discussions we have here, it has to flow from the opperating premis that we do. I can't forget that free will is an open question, but must proceed to try and interpret the world with the idea that we also may have it.

Now P ( I think ) in your September 19, 2012 5:56 AM post, that bit I did about the " shark hunting " as related to the lightworker, lord Aton, planet Nebedon, that was merely a joke. I don't take my friends e-mails about that stuff seriously. I find it amusing that there are dates given when the Galactic Federation is finally going to show up to wash away the Dark Forces, then that date comes and goes, nothing happens and then the earth Lightworkers are asking all sorts of questions about why GF didn't show up :-) Yes, we are going to have to save ourselves if at all possible :-)

Oh, and Happy Birthday on your #68!
Referencing this you wrote " what trumps it into deciding or reacting this way or that ", the infinite interacting components of all manner of form that coalesce together to produce what we see in human action can be seen to be strictly cause and effect, seemingly to me, the more you disect and understand the workings of each part.


Hotspringswizard said...

Humans are parcing the pieces down to the quantum level as described, and these views of the finer workings exposes more and more that what we once thought were things attributed to our own free will, are really like levers moving in a very complex clockworks, in a predictable fashion, with no alternative outcomes.

But the quantum level is just another layer to the puzzle, and in an infinite system there will always be even finer parcing that can, and will expose even deeper realizations that could, as they have done in the past, transform things before understood to be one way as an explanation, into something else competely. There is no end to this in an infinite system. Thats why the question of free will can't be answered by my estimation.

RP, regarding free will I think you make valid points in your most recent post. This is one of those many things in life where it becomes an unsolvable quandry. But since it can't be answered, one can't be wholly invested in either side of the free will question.

So on a practical level, even if free will is a grand illusion, we still proceed to do what we do, talk about things, argue points, decide what to do, make choices, like we have some control.

And even the latest new theories on the nature of reality coming out of quantum physics are so bizarre and alien to our perceptions about what is, like the present is not just a long flowing event like we experience it, but an infinite number of strung together spacial possibilities, or something like that. My mind starts to go num when I learn about that stuff :-)

In endless realms, there would be no end to peeling back the layers of it all, such that anything you think you know now, will be shown to be wrong, and that will be shown to be also wrong the deeper you delve into the finer workings, and on and on it goes.

But with all of the above said, I know one thing for sure, Hillary Clinton is a Horrible Monster with no soul! I think that is something we can all agree on :-)

Hotspringswizard said...

Bexar, thanks for the drone info. I'll look into it. We are headed for a growing drone presence around the world and it all reminds me of the Terminator movie where they are hunted ruthlessly in the future with ground and air drones.

Anonymous said...


OK you got me guys. For the sake of being totally boring (again) I am going to explain how simple the free will concept really is. God gave man(kind) free will so that he could choose to do either good or bad. It must be so because it says so in the Bible. If a man chooses to be a totally evil bastard, doing harm to the environment and to his fellows and taking away their freedoms, then that is a man exercising the free will that God has given him in order to sin. If on the other hand the man chooses a life of virtue, doing only good and ethical endeavours, then that is not him exercising his free will to do good. Instead that is God working through him.
So if you do bad, that is free will and it is down to you.
If you do good, that is the hand of God and it is not down to you.
Talk about wanting both your penny and bun!

Changing the subject, I thought the window of opportunity had passed on this Iran thing but apparently not. Wait and watch.

rockpicker said...


Where does heart fit into your equation?

According to researchers, the heart's electromagnetic signal dwarfs that of the brain.

I don't believe 'the brain' and 'the mind' are interchangeable terms.

Anonymous said...

Hey, here's something....

I've read a few crazy things about transplanted organsm -that people who've received transplanted organs, like the heart, started to behave or have some characteristics of the donor.

Which of course would be -coool.

And so, I was hoping that Dick Cheney, after receiving his FIRST heart, that he'd start behaving differently. Maybe donating all of his ill-gotten booty to Save The Children" or whatnot. But, nothing seemed to have changed, it seems. Either it's all a myth or a hopeful/wishfull thinking or

the donor was a dick.


freeacrfe said...

I think we need to acknowledge some new names at the Campfire - Cedar, Eagle, and Condor. Nice to hear from you. Plenty of room here at the council. Welcome.

rockpicker said...

I second that welcome. It would be interesting to know how each of you found the campfire, and how long you've been reading the blog.

While trying to dig up some more info on the Gordon Duff/US Navy/UFO story, I came across this curious item. Check out the price. Who buys this sort of stuff?

Anonymous said...


Randy, You got a double whammy there. That sick Dick crack had me rolling about laughing. Also “
Which of course would be -cool.” It remind me that years ago a mate left his cool box in my house so I made a sticker and put it on which said “ Human Head” and he used to walk around with it. He thought the funny looks he got was huge.

Anonymous said...


Randy, You got a double whammy there. That sick Dick crack had me rolling about laughing. Also “
Which of course would be -cool.” It remind me that years ago a mate left his cool box in my house so I made a sticker and put it on which said “ Human Head” and he used to walk around with it. He thought the funny looks he got was huge.

Anonymous said...


West Nile Virus (read Polio) is making a reappearance in the Balkans and USA.

Anonymous said...

can't speak for cedar or condor but eagle flew in around dec 06. some christmas present eh? mighta been this one got his feathers ruffled... ...p

Anonymous said...

Interesting information about GMO research showing what happens to rats fed the junk. Pictures tell a lot.

I hope all of you in California vote in favor of labeling what is in your food. We want to know too! You lead, we will follow.


Hotspringswizard said...

Is Cedar one who has posted here before named Dave? If not, welcome to all of them. Hope their ok with sharing the talking stick with another one of our trusty council members, MF's Cricket :-)

Bexar, I was going to mention that new info about the rats fed GMO corn who got tumors.

I was watching a documentary at RT TV today called Iron Crows, which is about people in Bangladesh who make a living by salvaging half of the worlds retired large ships. They make 15 cents for an arduous and dangerous ten hour day. It is a real example of what will be happeing more and more in the austere world conditions to come, that being scavenging, salvage and recycling of all manner of materials created in a time when we had plenty of everything.

The name Iron Crows is because there is a type of crow that lives in the area, and these exceptional scavenges themselves have taken to collecting iron wire scraps from around the ships to make their nest out of. Much of the work of taking apart these huge ships is done by what are termed gas cutters, who use acetylene torches.

I can relate to these gas cutters as I was one back in the the late 70's, working at Keiser Steel in Fontana, Cal. I had the gravyard shift. We would go out to a huge scrap yard wearing our fire proof clothing, with a helmet and face mask on, thick gloves, and our four foot long cutting torch. We were assigned things to cut up, anything from 3 foot thick solid ingots of steel, to much bigger things like train box cars, huge water tanks, 20 foot tall slag buckets which weighed many tons, etc.

Most of the time you worked on your own, and you also wore goggles with dark colored lenses to protect your eyes from the brightness of the area where the torch was cutting the steel. It was dangerours work because you were cutting at night, and with the dark goggles on you could not see much else than a small area around where your torch was cutting. You were cutting things that were extremely heavy because they were solid iron, and you had to do your best to calculate where things would fall. I came real close to getting crushed a number of times.

I also wore a type of painters mask ( I had to buy myself ) that filtered fumes and vapors. For the most part, all of the rest of the workers wore nothing, and therefore breathed lots of pungent, orangish brown toxic plumes that emenated off of the torch cutting area. Even with the mask on I'm sure some of this foul unhealthy air got into my lungs.

Now these guys in Bangledesh, they are dealing with iron structures that are monsterously huge in comparison to what I was cutting on, and the conditions they work in are horrific. Check out the video, its a real window into the very harsh world of these salvagers/recyclers who are referred to as Ship Breakers.

On another subject Freeacre I saw that there is a fire buring up your way near Bend called the Pole Creek Fire. Probably to far away for you to see but the picture of it on the weather channnel looked like it was pretty big.

Oh and RP, you think the human heart affects the activity in the brain? I would suggest its the other way around :-) Now on the other hand, if I had a heart attack, that would make me feel pretty down so maybe your on to something RP :-)

Hotspringswizard said...

Oh, and I forgot to mention you can look for that Iron Crows Doc most likely here. It will probably be the next one posted at the top, even though as of this evening I don't see it there yet. Since its showing currently on RT TV maybe thats why its not in the list yet. Here is the link:

freeacre said...

Wow, p, that link to Cyclone's site was a real blast from the past. Christ! We were pretty much talking about the same stuff that we are now! And, it was 2006. Collapse of the economy, endless war, shun the fuckers, etc. Kinda depressing. I miss ras, Stoney, Eli, and Cyclone.
If this shit doesn't pop by, say, March - I'm going on vacation. For, like, a year.

Hotspringswizard said...

Yeah Freeacre, regarding P's link I was thinking, like you guys have been around, FOREVER :-) That was a great post and great comments too. I was wondering, that seemed to be the last entry at Cyclone from the looks of it, so was that when the switch was made by you and Murph over to the Trout Clan Blog? Seems to me I remember you telling me about how you guys kinda took the thing over at some point.

Anonymous said...

rp re who buys this sort of stuff:

With a cover price of $270 it's safe to say it's not aimed at the little people; authors CV's read like Majestic 12 job apps ;¬) Gd.

Anonymous said...

as to condor, ain't my place to speak for but i will say this... my suspicians as to who it was at the time i responded had everthing to do with what i said. and, if so, that ole bird was roostin here before eagle flew in and a large part of why the eagle is still here.

which could be just another way of sayin now ya know who to blame it all on. : - ) ... p

Anonymous said...

wiz... last entry was 10/25/07. true to form murph & fa not only assured it's (cyclone's real deal blog which was the genesis of this campfire) legacy in perpituity but when this campfire was lit for the first time, it was lit in the spirit of that legacy. and they've never failed to add a log to the fire for all of us to chew on. the way i see it, i'd call their efforts over these last 6 years, stewardship... p. aka, eagle.

but only since condor flew in a couple days ago. except, i think condor is.... well, i'll let you guys guess who. like i siad above, i think he's been here far longer than eagle. i mean, p. i mean, me!

damn, now i'm confused!! anyway, here's my bookmark to the last cyclone's real deal blog post which was done by murph...

there's more wiz...

"When the Condor of the south flies with the Eagle of the north, a new day for Earth will awaken!"

Inca prophecy shared by many indigenous tribes of both north and south.

thus the nature of my comment back to condor... "the condor feel what the eagle can only see. and often, can't see. thats why we need each other!"

i chose to sign it eagle cuz thats what was left to claim. the condor and the eagle. cuz you see, to me, the north is metaphoric for inspiration and the mind while the south is metaphoric for gut intuition and the emotions. aka, upper chakras, lower chakras. with heart in the middle as the balance center.

thus the nature of my comment to you...

"...from where i'm seeing it, yer describing the mind from where the heart would be. and yeah, can't argue that the shark has one. but then, if you cut it out of him what you get ain't what i'm talkin bout."


"...the brain is akin to a computer on chemicals. what is it that pushes its buttons to produce all those various behavior types?"

eagle out. for now.

whitewater fraggle said...


I think the fam and I are gonna head over this weekend for a look at some of the properties on the map you linked.

Looking forward to it.

Hotspringswizard said...

Thanks for your thoughts there Eagle :-)

I just read this article posted at Carolyn Baker's site. Its excellent in its appraisal of our situation:

Why We Cannot Save The World

....The challenges we face are overwhelming, and they’ve been accelerating in size and complexity for millennia. The more we learn about them, and their interrelatedness, the more daunting they become....

....We have created a problem that has no solution, and it’s the same one, as Jared Diamond and Ronald Wright have explained, that led to the downfall of past civilizations. Except this time the problem is global, and we’re all going down....

And the things discussed in this article is why I too wrote this at my Blog site:

....Humanity has created an ever growing tempest of myriad converging difficulties and realistically unsolvable complexities. The architecture of the human mind and its manner of functioning meant we would always go down this increasingly troubled path as a species....

Also from the article is this from Einstien, something that relates to my discussed viewpoints on the subject of free will:

....Einstein asserted: “I believe with Schopenhauer: We can do what we wish, but we can only wish what we must. Practically, I am, nevertheless, compelled to act as if freedom of the will existed. If I wish to live in a civilized community, I must act as if man is a responsible being.” ....

Notice Einstein's words, " act as if " in reference to the existance of free will. This is akin to Murphs thoughts that he " prefers " to beleive that humans have free will. So the possible absence of human free will is recognized, but in the sense of practicality, its much easier to address what we perceive ( even if it is an illusion ) in the world under the premis that we do have free will. It is a quandry that cannot be escaped.

But if free will is after all an illusion, still, we will play our part in the play of cause and effect, and the unkown quality of what lies before us is still a mystery to behold, and my awe of it all is no less :-)

Anonymous said...


Great. If you come by site #15, that's where I will be. Be nice to meet you. There are some interesting things to look at too.


Hotspringswizard said...

Speaking of Blast From the Past, Murph says this in Cyclone post, 12-7-06 " Making absolute statement about what is, what could be, what has come before is largely an exercise in futility "

I would put it a little differantly but I think its similiar, you cannot make absolute statements/observations about an infinite system, which is one of the possibililites for our cosmos.

Sure alot of things written by you Murph ( and other contributors of course ) since what time, Cyclone 2005? So maybe a new post idea Murph, is one where you look back on what this journey of shared ideas has taught you, what it has meant, what changes it may have wrought in your life, and in your thinking. You surely have a knack for laying down an excellent missive :-)

Anonymous said...

einstein also said god doesn’t throw dice. to which the quantum theorists merely chuckle and where the absolute, free will, and cause and effect can all get a bad rap.

the free will argument is like stickin a rabbit hole into a worm hole and shooting it out of a time machine. does the billard ball annilate itself or carrom off itself into its own future? i really dunno. maybe its got something to do with square circles.

actually, i mostly agree with you on the mind wiz. its just that i don't limit resolution (or cause for that matter) to the mind which is obviously capable of self-destruction when left to its own devices. especially when convinced it is acting alone... p

freeacre said...

I have a different take on "free" will, since I am living in a female body. I remember (vividly)taking a shower after my son was born. He was in a basket next to the shower because I was afraid to take my eyes off him. He made a little cry, and suddenly milk shot out of my breasts all the way to the shower curtain! I had no control - baby cries, mother lactates. Period. Where was my free will then?
We can only perceive a fraction of reality due to the limitation of our eyes, our senses, and our knowledge base. So, ultimately, our choices are limited to what we can perceive and also what instincts are compelling to us. We are both mind and body. I don't regret that the mind's "will" is curtailed by our body. I figure the body has a sophisticated will as well, and that we use it for guidance to being human.
We are having a human experience, and that's okay. I guess that's why we are here. The fact that we are living in such fascinating times is just "gravy" I reckon.

freeacre said...

Wow, Hot Springs, that was a monster article - "Why We Can't Save the World" on Caroline Baker's site. Damn. Combined with the renewed memories of how long we have been at the compfire, the newly grokked Agenda 21 pervasiveness, the momentum of the assorted catastrophies at hand like a million Titanics headed for the ice wall, Pollac seems to have nailed the angst among us. His ending sums it up and makes it easier to live with:

"... Until the old systems die, we won’t be able to see what, and how much, really needs to be done anyway, and the remains of the old systems will struggle defiantly to resist new experiments (this is already happening). We can do some advance learning, and practice dealing with crises in a personal, proactive way (i.e. rather than expecting the government to fix each crisis as it occurs, and to tell us what to do).

We can get to know our neighbours, including the ones who are annoying and ignorant and unable to self-manage, and what we can do with and for each other, and lay the foundations for true, local communities. We can get to know the place we live, the organic process of which we are most immediately a part, and what else lives and can naturally thrive there. We can experiment with new models and constructs of how to live sustainably and joyfully, provided we recognize they are just experiments and are unlikely to flourish until the old systems crumble.

Much of this early preparation can be easy, and fun, if we choose to make space for it. And this still leaves us time, time saved by not trying to hold on desperately to our dying civilization culture, to just be, to play, to do things that are easy and fun, to live each moment of this amazing life at this amazing time to the fullest. To free ourselves, and be wild again, welcomed back into the organic process that is all-life-on-Earth, where we always belonged."

freeacre said...

Oh, Boy! I think I got rid of the annoying word verification!!